Hi folks,

Has anyone here had any experience or seen an arranger KB player using a live drummer? I’m mainly talking about the keyboardist using auto accompaniment styles while playing with a live drummer.

In particular I’m curious as to if you muted the drum track or keep the drum track on and have the live drummer play on top of it? Did you send a click to the live drummer? How about monitoring?

Thoughts?

Years ago I did have a part time duo with an Arranger kb muted drum track and live drummer & this was with a few different ones, ...it was a nightmare, too slow, too fast, behind the beat, fills were off, endings, etc, etc, ... even with a click track, ...no human can compete with the clock of an automated computerized arranger kb drummer as in an arranger keyboard it just doesn't sync correctly and there are always problems, I get douche`chills just thinking of those times YIKES!! ....now playing with a live percussionist with an arranger kb is great and works very well..

Donny is right. A good percussionist "sweetens" things and makes the whole process much more enjoyable.

That being said, mot "live" performances have lots of tracks going on. Look at the drummer. Sometimes he's hitting his bass drum and double the notes are coming out. Or, he's carefully watching a red light by his throne, and has earphones on.

Same thing...just takes tons of practice. Wouldn't be worth the time for a OMB, but would probably work on a Taylor Swift tour.

R.

Yeah, I almost always work with a percussionist for Latin events. No problems what so ever... We do have a big event coming up and the club requested mostly
norteña and banda . Both styles use drum set rather than Latin percussion.
Anyways the percussionist I normally use also is a drummer. He’s toured and recorded with many top acts, is very experienced with playing to tracks ...
Anyways we’re going to rehearse before the gig to see if it works with the drum set.

I have on a couple of occasions and it worked well ...
I muted the drums and panned the bass to one side and placed a monitor next to the drummer ... The drummers were good and well experienced, and one - who was about 17 years young at the time - was excellent and later toured with Donald Fagan before Walter Becker passed away ...
As your percussionist knows your music, I don't think it will be a problem ...

Thanks for the positivity Tony! It sounds like you’ve worked some great drummers with impressive credentials! My percussionist/drummer buddy is a University of North Texas grad and was a member of their top jazz band the One O’ Clock Lab Band. He’s toured with Luis Miguel, Alejandra Guzman, Gloria Trevi and other big Latin acts. He’s equally good on Latin Percussuon, all styles of drum set, and orchestral percussion. He plays really great piano too. He’s very humble for such a musical virtuoso !

I used a drummer only once, never do it again. The drummer could not stay with the keyboard. As Russ says, a drummer adds to a song. He picks up the tempo and slows it down ever so slightly; it is not even noticeable. His volume changes accordingly. He is being asked to follow a beat instead of creating a beat; not fair to put that on a drummer.

When I was playing a single, I added electronic drums to my singing and guitar playing. It was almost impossible to add any feeling to the song. I was not leading; I was following. And here lies one of the major reasons for musician’s dislike of arranger keyboards.

I use a keyboard because have no other choice. What bothers me is that I am beginning to feel it sounds good. But inside of me I know I have lost something when I stopped playing with a live band.

Today I have come to love my arranger keyboard; it is the only way I can have a band surrounding me. My love has gone from freedom to express what I feel to creating what I feel sounds good.
This is not as bad as it seems, many are doing the same thing in other areas.

I love my keyboard, I love music, and I am contented a greater part of the time.

John C.
PS, I used a bass player once, that turned out pretty good.

Over the years I've had two occasions to play arranger with a live drummer. Once was awful for reasons stated above. The other time the drummer was excellent and stayed with my "bass player" perfectly. It was actually a fun night.
The first time was at an animal club in Texas where the manager asked me if I would let one of the members play with me for a while. I said sure if he's at least fairly good. Had to idea he was a drummer until he started dragging in drums. The only way I was able to make it work at all was to use my arranger drums and let him just fill in when he could.
The second time was at Ernest's. At that time I was alternating with another guy who played portable organ, left hand bass and right hand organ sounds, and used a drummer and sometimes a horn player. One night he got sick and couldn't come so they called and asked me to fill in. I didn't know the drummer wanted to play with me until I got there. No problem though, I just muted the drums and it worked great.
It all depends on the ability of the drummer to handle it.

ABSOLUTELY !!!

Hi - I have played with a live drummer (and bass and guitar) using my arranger keyboard - but I always have the styles OFF when doing so. In my solo and duo situations, I use the styles extensively. So for the "full band" situation (with drummer) I'm really using the keyboard as a keyboard only, no styles. I've occasionally (at a jam or practice) turned on the Style, to show the band a new song for example, and had the drummer drum along to it. It was OK but either he had to play quiet and let the style "lead", or it wouldn't have worked. I don't think I'd try it live (in public) w/o a lot of practice with the drummer.

I've been on a lot of cruises, and many times the big shows on the cruise ships have a 5-6-7 or so piece band, and for some very intricate shows, they have pre-recorded tracks playing also. I assume the drummer has a click as he's wearing headphone or in-ears. I also assume that the drummer has to be REALLY good at, and well-rehearsed at, following a click. For those shows, it is spot-on, very good quality, so the drummer has to be really good and very experienced at this kind of scenario. A casual drummer that has never done this before, would (probably) have trouble staying with an Arranger keyboard which is playing drums/styles. (just my thoughts) ...

Jim

I am somewhat surprised at that statement, John, as I feel a vocalist can certainly put a lot of emotion into a song, even while playing an arranger kb ... It comes from the telling of the story of the song, in the phrasing, etc. ... Even when playing an instrumental, the player can put emotion into a song by 'stretching' notes out, cutting notes short, and especially by not playing 'note for note', 'beat for beat' as the song is written on paper ...

All that being said FOR ME, nothing beats playing with other musicians, especially if you know them well ...

I did it twice, luckily with a former sessions drummer from Sony studios in NY, so he could follow bass with a monitor. Tried with one other for a song or two and didn't work. Depends on drummers experience.

A good drummer can play right along and add the icing as needed. I've done it many times ... with up to 8 pieces.

Takes some practise to get it right:- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_3fzvBvAe8

Let the arranger drums play STRAIGHT and the drummer does the fills, breaks ... etc. Mute the KICK drum of drummer ... but don't forget to unmute when he is playing 'alone'!

Tony, in most types of music there is a volume change and a slight tempo change to accent important parts of a song. I am being critical here, but when I played rhythm with my guitar, I had three choices. On the beat. Before the beat, or just after the beat. On the beat for Latin music. Ballads, just after the beat, and up tempo, before the beat.

Playing after the beat creates a drag, a holding, just what is needed for a ballad. Playing before the beat creates tension – up tempos need that for excitement. Again, I am being critical, but I am talking about creating a feeling in your music.

Dancers respond to volume and tempo changes. An up tempo needs excitement --- the volume increases and the tempo moves up slightly. (not in all music) This is what is happening in a song like Mack the Knife. Without volume, key changes and a slight tempo change the song the song is not that great.

Now in my post it was the first time I used a electronic drummer. After a short time I became used to playing with it. BUT, my music lost something—and there is the difference between an arranger keyboard and playing live, we lose something.

John C.

Before, after, and on the beat are all viable techniques I subscribe to, and use, but the drummer need not. Playing expressively to a rigid track is not a stretch. I think having a constant beat is so much better than fluctuating to accommodate skill level, or volume changes. All the expression can come from the other instruments.
As a soloist (horn player/singer) I often take liberties with the feel while my track, or band members stay solid. Since they were invented, I always said that ALL drummers need to own, and play with a drum machine. It makes them better drummers.
Just my take on it.

Definitely, Dave. Have a rock steady drummer and you can do all the befores and afters with the comping and vocal phrasing. Arrangers afford that.

Great comments and thanks AJ for showing an actual example. I’m getting together with the drummer before the gig and will report back and perhaps try to record an example.

A few times, when the seq/arrangement was rather intense, and full of complex parts, I've suggested that the (live) drummer avoid using the kick drum. He'd simply place his foot on the ground, and go through the same motions as if he were hitting the drum. It kept order, and wasn't prone to drift off the beat. We always had the digital drummer as a metronome, but with the live drummers embellishments.

This is exactly the approach I was going to suggest! Let the live drummer color the groove and do all the fills. I can see how the live/acoustic bass drum and the bass drum coming from the auto accompaniment could conflict and sound like a muddy flam

Here’s some live footage of us with a conga and timbale player.,. I didn’t mute anything in the styles....

https://youtu.be/d_au_2R2a_4

I was booked to play at a high-end country club, they wanted two musicians so I hired a drummer. His ability was not at question., he was good.

Problems:
1-A drummer’s main job is to hold the beat, now he being asked to follow a machine.

2-Because we had to hold the volume down the drummer had trouble hearing the style. The speakers were at each side of the stage. His drum was right in front of him, not good. I had to move one speaker behind him. It was not a good night.

My question is, why use a drummer? Sax, trumpet, even vibes add much more, they are live. With my band we had a cowbell, tambourine, and timbalies. (Spelling?) At the right time they added a lot.

I was in an audition of bands; people came to book a band for their wedding and parties. There was a band playing Latin music, they were fantastic. Drummer, two Percussion, and a drum machine.

Using midi I added a drum machine to my Kn7000, what a marriage. I used a foot pedal to control the volume of the drum machine. I was able to add different drum sets, breaks, and combine styles. The sounds of the drum machine were far better than my keyboard. It worked very much like the pads on a keyboard.

The world of music has been so rewarding, John C.

My question is, why use a drummer?

Good question John.

The drums on my KB ( especially my Audya) sounds fantastic. So why use a live drummer? The simple answers quite honestly is for the visual aspect. Canned drums are simple not accepted in certain situations. It gives a group a very fake look. It just too obvious.

Besides the visual aspect, a live drummer can add so much energy and visual excitement by using rhythmic accents and interactions .

For that low volume duo event that you pñsyed at John, it sounds like a drummer was not the best option but a drummer that has trained their whole life with a click and lots of experience with playing live with tracks could have totally pulled it off. Besides having rock solid time, a good drummer has excellent dynamics and has no problem playing whisper soft.

I think the question should be why not go 100 percent live ? That’s a whole new topic! But my short answer is my clients budgets and my left hand are not up to the task!

By the way in the video that posted above, while there is no drum set player , there are two very good percussionist. The gentlemen on congas and and his 14 year old daughter is on timbales. Both can play really well live, with a click, or with tracks . They live and breath percussion and train many hours a day , mostly with a metronome and playing along to albums. It shows in their timing

Let's discuss this. Why shouldn't a drummer be able to follow? It's just another member of an ensemble, right? Who says drummers get to be the leader? The bass is far more important to the overall groove in my world. I was taught by my HS jazz band instructor that if the rhythm isn't in the arrangement, then a drummer won't add it. We rehearsed all of our swing tunes without the drummer before adding one to the ensemble, and it paid off. The instrumentalists set the groove, found the pocket, and executed the tempo/feel ... all without the "need" for any one person, or instrument to "hold the beat." The beat was already created by the band, and we held it all on our own. In fact, more times than not, the drummer would affect the groove in a negative way when emotion, or fatigue would affect the skill level. Now, this shouldn't be an issue for a pro percussionist, but remember, this was HS, and most teenagers were easily excited. With excitement, usually came tempo shifts. Quiet sections would tend to slow down, louder ones would speed up - very frustrating for the rest of us. I've said it before - drummers NEED to own machines, and practice with them. Tempo is not a negotiable thing for a dance floor, and rock solid tempo does not translate in to "no feel." Quite the contrary, I've found. Feel is what we do with the melody, the expression, the nuances ... how we interpret the changes, and the style ... none of that is clouded, or reduced with an exact tempo. I feel very strongly about this (can you tell?) and I hope it doesn't offend anyone. I think a live drummer/percussionist with a DJ is a very modern way to add flash, and excitement to an, otherwise sterile show.

I've worked rooms that won't allow drums, and one that DID allow a kit, but no bass drum. It was a volume thing, more than anything else. The general listening public in venues that I play respond to the music in this level of hierarchy:
Song selection (play the hits, and favs)... even Jimmy Buffett tunes Russ?
Dance tempos (if that's the venue)
Melody, and personalization - sung, or instrumental (eye contact, smiles etc)
Bass (sets the foundation for the rest of the changes)
Chords, color sounds (fluff, icing, adds excitement)
Drums (the candle on the cake)

Our most successful method off dealing with this was a personal monitor right in the drummers ear. Often times, it was the same size, and power of the mains. I've also played in a horn section with a band that used sequences for every song. We simply played our parts over top of the arrangement. Added sizzle, and class, and we had great on -stage monitors - essential to this approach.

In fact, even in my solo endeavors - a good, personalized monitor mix is PARAMOUNT for me. I set the room for what is correct for the room ... that sometimes, is not what I choose to hear for my own comfort level.

In a duo using midi backing tracks, and the other guy is a drummer.

Tracks are a mix of commercial and homebrew, all to a greater or lesser extent adjusted to leave space for the drummer and myself to add meaningful contributions. Tempo and dynamics changes also added it required.

Over the years we have played a lot of ballroom dancing. Your tempos need to be rock solid and accuarate, and to do that we used a metronome until we felt confident we could do it freestyle.

The discipline this requires makes playing against a backing track much easier.

When I got my Ensoniqq ESQ1 I was recording some simple piano tracks to support an amateur music show. So I recorded myself and thought "that's not bad". Then I applied some quantization to tidy things up and discovered my tempo through the tunes was up and down like a yo-yo. Quite an eye opener!

In my trio (which I use 2 arrangers) the drummer plays with my drum tracks..just recorded 17 tunes in a studio..the percussion sounded awesome.

However, I invited a friend (drummer) that plays in a 80s band. and he had trouble playing with the arrangers drums