Let's just solve this once and for all Bill and Spaulding
just post a few demos each of what your talking about
and let the chips fall where they may....
Talk is cheap...

Been following this thread for awhile and I'm amazed at the number of comments alluding to how 'easy' it is to play an arranger. Man I'm finding the 3000 I have is as complicated as anything I have dealt with. Seems there is nothing I can do that is as simple as just calling up a style and playing the tune and have it sound decent. I know many home users do it that way but I want to have a professional sound. To get the arranger to do what I want I have to spend just as much time, if not more, setting things up as I would if I was using other boards and a DAW. For my 2 cents worth the main advantage of a TOTL arranger is its OMB abilities. With the ability to control vsts I would have no problem plyin in a band.

Earl, that 3000 is nothing more than a computer with piano keys. It will do anything you tell it to do, but in order to accomplish all that you wish, you must be able to speak it's language, which can take many years to learn.

I used the 3000 for many, many years, explored every feature and aspect, and I can guarantee you that there were things I never discovered. Life on stage was a lot easier when I was just a young man sitting on a bar stool with a 12-string guitar and a several, 3-inch thick books of lyrics in a milk box and one on a music stand.

Fortunately, for me, I have always had a good technical mind, and unendingly curious about the inner workings of electronic devices, computers, printers, bio-medical monitoring systems, etc... When I was just 24 years old and working at the University Of Maryland Hospital in Baltimore, I helped design one of the first physiological monitoring systems in the country for the University of Maryland Shock Trauma Unit. It monitored 17 bodily functions at the same time, displaced them on a 21-inch blue and white screen, and was the size of a large door. It weighed more than 300 pounds and was on 4 heavy-duty casters so we could move it around. Today, through miniaturization of transistors, chips and ICs, the same system would be about 20 pounds, and the size of a breadbox.

Same is true with arranger keyboards. When I got my first arranger keyboard, a Mitsubishi, if I recall correctly, it weighed about 40 pounds, had 35 styles and 30 voices. At the time, I loved playing it, and the operating system was such that you pretty much could not do another other than just sit and play - no tweaking or tuning, no EQ, nothing but a bare bones instrument.

Today, there is absolutely nothing you cannot do with an arranger keyboard. I think in the right hands, it will even make your lunch for you. They are truly amazing instruments that ironically, only a tiny fraction of the owners/users have taken time to delve into the inner workings and really put them through their paces. Much of this is because of the complexity of the instrument, while the other is just plain laziness and not wanting to spend the time involved in pursing the end result. I know a lot of folks that have never taken the user manual out of the zip-loc bag it arrived in with their keyboard, let alone opened it and read each and every page while sitting next to the keyboard and going through the steps.

Good luck,

Gary

Studio and creative examples using just one manufactures hardware/software, there are hundreds more out there. https://www.youtube.com/user/NativeInstruments

Live creative players https://youtu.be/Cp9Ie9IvPTU
https://youtu.be/J9wzev494_k
https://youtu.be/rsOXquEddSw
https://youtu.be/R1hRsOhxtiY
https://www.garritan.com/products/jazz-big-band-3/
https://youtu.be/EpuezNCwhZU

Note how they are not stuck in a rut having to rely on canned and repetitive styles, or limited sounds in the case of the first videos. (They are also playing the instruments instead of just prodding a few keys and having most things done for them, thus limiting them to right hand improvisation only hence you mainly hear the arranger sounding same as every other arranger with virtually none of the player coming through)

Bill

Bill, your examples above clearly go to show that ALL music consist of repetitive styles, therefore, each of those YouTube examples sound quite similar because they ARE repetitive, especially with the drums, bass and other voices. The only thing that separates one from the other is the lead voices, which are improvisational at best. Sorry Bill, but I really see no difference based upon your exemplars. You could do the exact, same thing with any arranger keyboard right out of the box and probably do it better because of the many automated features at your fingertips.

All the best,

Gary

Is this You playing Bill? That is what I was looking for?

Did I just step into the twilight zone ?

Bill maybe we are talking at cross purposes . We were talking about what a pro musician does 90 % of the time on keyboards that they could not do on an arranger without using styles. So your first example is of TWO musicians playing TWO keyboards at the same time . What was it meant to show that could not be done 90% of the time on an arranger ? Because I agree an arranger can’t reproduce TWO INDEPENDENT musicians at the same time . Definitely the arranger function would be required . But I don’t think the Kronos or fantom or motif could do it either . My guess is ..... you would need TWO pro musicians but maths is not my strong point . 😁

The other example was a modular synth . Is this what a pro musician uses 90% of the time ? Something tells me you are not playing fair 😂😂 or these pros are out of work 90% of the time 🥴.

The next one was joey Francesco playing a real organ for goodness sake unless he was using samples instead of the organ ? Do most pro musicians gig 90 % of the time with a real B3 or HAMMOND ? Do you think joey can do on a motif or fantom or Kronos the same thing he can do on the real thing ? Do you think ANY keyboard can . I am sure your playing with me 👍

The penultimate link was to software that any one can purchase ,load to their lap top and link to ANY KEYBOARD. Did I misunderstand what you were trying to show because I am pretty sure I can link an arranger to a laptop and trigger samples . In fact I am sure that’s possible . But it could be only pros can do that .

The last one was of a live band using again TWO KEYBOARDS . The top one was used for synth leads sometimes with a phaser effect and filter or resonance cut off assigned to the modulation wheel I think but I am pretty sure I can achieve a similar sound using hi pass filters and assigning a resonance and phaser effect to the pitch bend wheel . The second keyboard was for the main keys which from what I could make out was , piano mixed with strings , organ and some kind of pad but the mix wasn’t the best so he could have been playing anything .

So what have we learned here ?

If I have an arranger with another keyboard or I have a real B3 or Hammond and a laptop and I have the ability to clone myself , I can play 90% of what the pros can do ?

Ok Bill I get it now 👍🏿. I won’t bring this up again .

You can’t hear tone Bill but I am just having a little fun with you . All the best . Worth

I don't care what instruments people use. Use what you like and enjoy.
I just sort of take it wrong when people on an Arranger Forum criticize those of us you prefer to use them over other tools.

Just to relate my experience I started out with a 3000 while I was still working a full time job. It wasn’t unusual for me to spend 3 hours many nights after my wife went to sleep. Some nights I saw 2 AM but most around 1 AM. It takes time and as Gary said these are nothing more than computers with a piano keyboard. I worked in the tech field so it came pretty easy to me.