Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Originally Posted By bruno123
A good organ player is not limited using bass pedals. At an organ concert an organist played the Flight of the Bumble Bee with the bass pedals. I believe that bass pedals, left hand bass, and using styles offer something different, and each loses something.
So there in my music room is my Wersi Delta 500 organ bought. It came with two tall Wersi speakers, and bass pedals. The first thing I noticed is that I did not sound anything like the organ players I heard at the organ concerts. The second thing was the terrible cramps I was getting in my left leg. After two months I sold the organ to a church.
I added bass pedals to m Kn7000; my leg cramps came back. I like adding that story, it brings back some memories.
I believe that Fran, with his accordion experience, plays a great left-hand bass, and it fits his needs. For me, the bass in a style is acceptable. When it becomes boring, I add a bass pad, and it does not bring any leg cramps. (smile)
Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 5520
Loc: Port Charlotte,FL,USA
This shows me that, allowing for a certain amount innate ability, the top players have paid their dues in studying the rudiments of theory and performance. I don't envy Fran and others, but salute them for countless hours building their foundation, and Fran knows all about foundations.
Hmmm, very interesting although it doesn't quite match up with my own personal experience. I have met or known or heard live almost every big-name jazz organist post Wild Bill Davis, with the exception of Tony Monaco (whom I'd really like to meet). First I'm curious about the sudden interest in pedal/LH Bass since, during the 15+ years I've been on this board, with the exception of myself, I don't recall anyone posting a performance utilizing pedal bass or LH bass. First off, to the best of my knowledge, only contemporary jazz organist use this technique (LH bass) which was pretty much introduced by Jimmy Smith and quickly adopted by nearly all jazz organist that followed him. Most used (and still use) the old technique of tapping a bass pedal (usually 'A') to add some 'attack' to the bass tone. A few 'duped' (duplicated) what they were playing on the left hand with the pedals. Even the true MASTERS like Joey D play LH bass on medium to up-tempo tunes although Joey is very capable on the pedals and frequently uses the technique described by Capt Russ above when he needed to use his left hand for another purpose (changing registrations, playing big, dynamic two-fisted chords, etc....or sometimes just wiping his brow). Also, no need to play LH bass if you're only (or primarily) just playin "root and fifth". Also, I think I may have every Jimmy Smith recording in existance; Jimmy played a lot of tunes in Bb and Eb as well.
Although Jimmy Smith may have pioneered the technique (LH Bass), even his most ardent fans would not say that he was the best at it. Hard to say who was/is, but my personal favorites (we're talking LH bass here) would be Tony Monaco (Joey's the better organist but can't match Tony for just flat-out GROOVE). Other 'honorable mentions' would be Brother Jack McDuff and Richard 'Groove' Holmes (both left-handers, BTW, and Jack is a former bass player). Between arthritis and quick fatigue, I can only play pedals on slow tunes and some latin tunes where "root and fifth" may be acceptable. I always have them plugged in though so I can tap them for a bar or two if I need to do something (with a good drum backing, live or otherwise, nobody notices). When it comes to pedals, there are plenty of competent pedal players for 'pop' music but in hard-core jazz there is only one; Barbara Dennerlein. After her, no one wants to even try .
Anyhow, I'm sure Bernie and Bill Lewis and Russ are all competent pedal and/or LH Bass players, all coming from an organ background (and I'm sure there are others) and yes, I know this is an 'Arranger Board', but since Fran brought it up, I'd love, I mean LOVE, to hear some members post some tunes (THEIR OWN) featuring pedals and/or LH bass.
chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]
Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Originally Posted By cgiles
Hmmm, very interesting although it doesn't quite match up with my own personal experience. I have met or known or heard live almost every big-name jazz organist post Wild Bill Davis, with the exception of Tony Monaco (whom I'd really like to meet). First I'm curious about the sudden interest in pedal/LH Bass since, during the 15+ years I've been on this board, with the exception of myself, I don't recall anyone posting a performance utilizing pedal bass or LH bass. First off, to the best of my knowledge, only contemporary jazz organist use this technique (LH bass) which was pretty much introduced by Jimmy Smith and quickly adopted by nearly all jazz organist that followed him. Most used (and still use) the old technique of tapping a bass pedal (usually 'A') to add some 'attack' to the bass tone. A few 'duped' (duplicated) what they were playing on the left hand with the pedals. Even the true MASTERS like Joey D play LH bass on medium to up-tempo tunes although Joey is very capable on the pedals and frequently uses the technique described by Capt Russ above when he needed to use his left hand for another purpose (changing registrations, playing big, dynamic two-fisted chords, etc....or sometimes just wiping his brow). Also, no need to play LH bass if you're only (or primarily) just playin "root and fifth". Also, I think I may have every Jimmy Smith recording in existance; Jimmy played a lot of tunes in Bb and Eb as well.
Although Jimmy Smith may have pioneered the technique (LH Bass), even his most ardent fans would not say that he was the best at it. Hard to say who was/is, but my personal favorites (we're talking LH bass here) would be Tony Monaco (Joey's the better organist but can't match Tony for just flat-out GROOVE). Other 'honorable mentions' would be Brother Jack McDuff and Richard 'Groove' Holmes (both left-handers, BTW, and Jack is a former bass player). Between arthritis and quick fatigue, I can only play pedals on slow tunes and some latin tunes where "root and fifth" may be acceptable. I always have them plugged in though so I can tap them for a bar or two if I need to do something (with a good drum backing, live or otherwise, nobody notices). When it comes to pedals, there are plenty of competent pedal players for 'pop' music but in hard-core jazz there is only one; Barbara Dennerlein. After her, no one wants to even try .
Anyhow, I'm sure Bernie and Bill Lewis and Russ are all competent pedal and/or LH Bass players, all coming from an organ background (and I'm sure there are others) and yes, I know this is an 'Arranger Board', but since Fran brought it up, I'd love, I mean LOVE, to hear some members post some tunes (THEIR OWN) featuring pedals and/or LH bass.
Thanks Fran, for leading the way. Naturally you had to pick one of my favorite tunes (Laura). Interesting choice to do it mid-tempo. Once something gets into my head as say, a ballad, I have a hard time re-focusing and playing around with different tempos (although the tempo you chose is quite common for these types of ballads (no reason they have to be funeral dirges ). Ok, now that you've broken the ice (and very nicely I may say), let's get some of these other rusty, dusty, old ex organ players to post something (using pedals or LH bass or any combination thereof). Also, if you post, please specify the sound source (instrument and patch name).
chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]
Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5393
Loc: English Riviera, UK
The biggest mistake most users make is treating the bass pedals as something separate, they are not, they are merely an extension of the keyboard that is playable with your feet, (Look down and you will find the notes on the pedals are exactly the same as the keyboards) which means effectively you have more hands available for more flexibility. Just like lead players and drummers bass players can also play a solo which (Within reason) can be emulated by playing pedals. (A style is of no use as it is pre-set and always plays the same notes and timing, thus quickly becomes boring; also as the automatics don’t know what chord you are going to play next, it causes complete havoc with the bass line) Another mistake players new to pedals make is in the seating position, if you look at professional pedal players they do not lift their leg at all, but merely swing it and use their ankle to pivot the foot to play the notes. (This is why a lot of users new to pedals get a lot of pain when playing) It has been mentioned that with an arranger you have to adapt your left hand playing style to get it to play the right bass notes, which again is unnatural and reduces the fluidity of left hand play. (If you’re happy to just trigger chords and let the style do all the work (More of a karaoke style play) this is not an issue, but you just sound the same as everyone else with nothing that identifies you as a player) Most organ players learnt to play pedals as there were no automatics to do it for them, however as these types of easy play features were added to organs there was less need to learn to play, (Most even allowed you to play with one finger) which meant why do you need pedals (Or a second manual) when the easy play features do it for you, this was quickly identified by the Japanese and the arranger keyboard came into its own, (As well as being smaller and cheaper) unfortunately while you could identify the organ player by his style, with an arranger all you hear is the arranger (The styles being the biggest give away) so virtually everybody sounds the same. Here is a simple bass line (From 1977) that was used to show perspective organ owners what could be achieved with a little effort being put in, (No fancy auto accompaniments were available in those days) https://app.box.com/s/2a3p3xy1mkfcgvd1obsrxt9yncl61vy4 NOTE: Most computer speakers don’t go low enough to show the bass line so make sure you listen on a decent set.
Bill
_________________________
English Riviera: Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).