I had a revelation today from something that happened a few days ago.

I was in Guitar Center looking at the keyboards. On the way out the door, I noticed the guitar salesman playing around on his axe. I asked him to show me how a guitarist plays so that I could emulate him on a keyboard. He was only too happy to show me what he was doing. Until...I started mentioning things like scales and 4ths and 5ths, and voicing, etc. Then he just clammed up and said "if you want lessons...sign up at the desk!"

I dismissed his strange behavior, but this morning it hit me. This has been happening to me over the years. The same scenario. Not only guitarists. Musicians in general. The common denominator I figured out. I'm hypothesizing that there are many musicians out there making great music who never had any formal training and who wouldn't know a 4th from an egg salad sandwich.

It's about as clear as a bell to me now. As soon as the person realizes I DID have formal training the lesson is over because...they can only "show" me what they're doing and can't explain in words.

Looking back over the years that's happened to me periodically. It's not a big deal but I've always taken it personally. Either they didn't like ME or they didn't like my after-shave lotion. Now I'm thinking if this were true (their lack of musical training) then it's about them and not me.

Which leads to a bigger question for me? I'm wondering now how many musicians DON'T have formal training? What do you think? P.S. I personally think that non-trained musicians play better as they don't deal intellectually with music structure and rules!

My View:
I have studied scales and scale mods. – arranger and reharmonizing, classical music (with Guitar) and music theory. The learning was good, but now I do my best to forget what I have learned.

That is an odd statement because you cannot unlearn what is inside of you ---But you can stop relying on what you learned. People who continue to use much of the above loose their freedom to express.

Entering the world of music without the above is very much like going the library and not being able to read.

IMHO, John C.

It depends on the style of music you are going into, classical (And other similar music) is structured, whereas other types are less so, thus you have to adapt to the style, however if you understand how music is created then you have a better understanding of how to do something with less faffing around.
When it comes to the final product, there is only one thing that counts, Talent, if you Havant got it then you will never stand out. (And relying on technology to help you out will not cut it either)

Bill

I never have had near the formal training many of you have, yet I did learn enough to read chords and count time, as well read fairly fluently. Unfortunately, it became a crutch until a few years ago I began trusting my ears and muscle memory.

There is no question about being freer to express your music, not being hobbled to sheet music, but having a few basics is still a good starting point. I can read the music, as intended, put away the sheet, and play as I wish. It does take time and effort to wean yourself from slavery, but the rewards are there.
Bernie

I still say playing by ear is a gift. I had formal training and unfortunately my teachers told me to play scales but never told me why. I have to read the music unless I memorize the song. I have a son who can hear a song and play it. He also picks out the various instruments and can add them into a sequencer. I have seen him play one note behind a song while listening to it. I myself cannot play mary had a little lamb unless there is music. Don't mis understand me I can play anything as long as I have music. After years I can add some runs and other notes that are no written in the music. I really envy anyone who can play by ear. If you can do both you have the best of both worlds. Sounds like Bernie can.
RC

Both methods can produce incredible music. I have nothing but respect for both "types" of musician... no matter the instrument.

In the final analysis... whatever works best for you is what you should pursue. I never took piano lessons in my youth but have always wished we could have afforded it... time-wise and more importantly, in the element of affordability.

Great topic.

There is a video of a girl on youtube. She studied classical piano for years and at some point decided to learn popular music. It showed her transcribing Oscar Peterson solos and then playing them and her years of study allowed her to do that. So, I think for a piano player, it is really good to have lessons because that gives you the facility to play anything provided you practice long enough. Then, if you know theory as well you have the whole package.

I don't think note-reading is as vital for a guitar player but a basic understanding of theory is a good thing for anybody. That said I have a basic understanding of theory but never read music and never took lessons. I just fool around with an arranger for enjoyment.

Its fun how people tend to talk about extremes while most people i guess are somewhere in the middle..

Espescially for keyboardists, i guess its important to know some theory..
As well as know how to play some scales in the correct fingering..

But its also important to see and hear how other instrumentalists play..
Not just piano, organ and epiano have different playstyles
But also emulating other instruments or fingerdrumming on the keys requires training,but also a good ear.

Trained or ear


If any of my comments appear to insult anyone .. Tuff!!..(Just kidding).

My intentions would be more of a challenge to expand your musical knowledge.

I believe it would be foolish to not study theory, music structure, score reading,
and understanding charts.

This along with practice to increase your playing skills, is the foundation
to be the best you can be.

The next natural step after a learned foundation, is to develop your ear..

This will give you the freedom that will enable you to be comfortable as a performer.

Your ear will allow you to ab-lib with the tune. But it is essential that you have the foundation
to do it right.

There is a learning progression, and it is pretty much the way I have stated.


Here are some real experiences that I have found to be true..

My training years were classical study on accordion.. this developed my so called "chops".

I moved on to theory, also voicing of chords , alternate chords, dropped 2's, bi-tonal..
You get the idea,,, This is the stuff that will make you better as you mature as a player..
(my last statement is what is usually lacking with classical trained pianist).

If you can not read scores or charts, professionally you are done.. If you have any
interest in larger bands with elaborate arrangements, or a studio musician .. forget it.

Most untrained folks get use to a 1.4.5 chord progression..
It sounds great to your family played with an arranger, but is really so empty..
You are short changing yourself. Study theory some more.. understand chord structure.
And practice voicing of chords on your right hand and left hand too. Learn to play the chords
in piano mode on your arranger, using expanded chords and substitute chords. It is in you,
you just have to do it.

Being locked into music in front of you... it is a crutch. Other than a specific arrangement with 18
players in a band.
You already know your material, you just don't know you do.

Early 80's (before I used SMF;s or arrangers), I relied on my music books.
Songs I performed a zillion times.
One day while working with a young lady (of course).. I forgot my music .. we were playing
at one of our regular jobs..
Guess what we didn't miss a beat, (I think it helped that my girl was "hot").
From that day on I didn't need the books.. New songs I would learn at home.
(maybe take an index card with chords).

I hope I have said something to challenge you , or at least have a better understanding.

Both a trained mind and a "good" ear together is the ultimate... You still need to practice.

I've played by ear since i could reach the keys on a piano. I've had 15 years of classical training. I consider myself to be an ear player rather than a music reader, partly because i trust my ears more than a lot of the music you get for popular tunes.

Having said that I find Beethoven very therapeutic and I'm not playing that by ear....

To me learning scales, arpeggios and such means I can play tunes without having to think about the mechanics of what is actually happening with my hands. I'm not going telll anyone I enjoyed it much, but it is worth it.

I had to train my ears. I could not "hear" jazz type chords until I got an Elton John book which I agree is not particularly jazzy but does have lots of chords where the bass / left hand is not related to the right band in the way it is in more classical music. Once I'd cracked that it became clear that a lot of the transcriptions in the Elton book were wrong....

And I have to agree that you do have to practise!

I admire and envy folks that can play by ear.
I can't.
Can you learn to play by ear?
In the other side, can it be teach?
It has been frustrating for me not to be able to play by ear. I have try but with bad results.

Any advise will be very welcome !!!

I can’t play by ear, or it might be a case I’ve convinced myself I can’t. So much easier to just get out the sheet music.

Wish I could.

Fran, you are far from insulting anyone, you are talking reality. Years back my accordion play sat with his book in front of him reading every note. One night I waited until his head turned and took his book. The night went well, and he never used the book again. The secret of playing without is to know how to recover. We all make mistakes.

“Learn to play the piano in four weeks” a course, on TV, which allow you to play a song in a very short time. It was presented on TV.

They opened up with this statement: “If you can whistle the melody of a song you can play that song without reading the music; but you must learn the chord progression first”.

IMHO, John C.

PS, John, good post, it says so much about the subject.

You could train to identify intervals by ear first, then distinguish major, minor, 7th chords etc. Playing by ear is largely composed of these abilities.

“If you can whistle the melody of a song you can play that song without reading the music; but you must learn the chord progression first”.

There are many dufferent articles written on this subject -- I believe it is more a gift, learning would be difficult. ???????

John C.

I'm wondering if anyone actually read my post? It didn't pit formal training against ear training i.e which is better? It said:

"Which leads to a bigger question for me? I'm wondering now how many musicians DON'T have formal training? What do you think?"

I should have left the P.S. off...."P.S. being: I personally think that non-trained musicians play better as they don't deal intellectually with music structure and rules!
"

Those musicians who are excellent and haven‘t had music theory are not excellent because they haven‘t had theory but because they have had so much talent in the first place that they became excellent wirhout needing it.

there are plenty of books out there (And on the internet and YouTube) that can teach you how to play by ear, (Although it can be difficult at first) however they all teach basic music theory first so that the you have a base understanding of music, (The circle of fifths is your friend here) so just do a quick Google search if you are interested.

Bill

Todays young musicians by a large margin don't want to put in the formal study of music basics. Learn songs and learn them fast. That means coping them by ear or using some online transcription. I taught piano for awhile in a studio and learned this very well. My students wouldn't care about learning scales, chords, etc. just songs. The guitar teacher next door had it nailed. Every kid cold play "Smoke On the Water" in no time and go home and show their parents that they're now a musician so buy me that guitar and amp !
Two bands I played in had very little clue about the basic of music. Everything had to be in the original key because they had no idea how to transcribe, just knew what they copied off of YouTube. Another short lived band was organized by a Blues Guitarist who I was led to belive had quite a reputation. I tried teaching them a new song beyond three chords and when I tried to explain a chord rundown with an Abdim in it he froze. No clue.
I'm glad I had formal training but wish it was more balanced with popular music and ear training. Slave to the written score fo many years.

Was playing by ear in a dining room at an officers club at Ladd AFB in Fairbanks when I was 13.

But when the studio work began, it was quickly apparent that to do high end studio stuff you had to site read in real time. As the work evolved to film scores, there were lots of tempo changes, modulations, stops and starts...things done much easier from a chart.

Then, the natural step was theory, which I enjoyed immensely.

Today, most of my live playing is pretty much "off the cuff", unless I'm playing with the Philharmonic, where real time site reading is essential. In the studio, formal training is a must.

Short story. One night at a country club, the manager said that a new music professor was in the lobby asking for a job. He wanted to know if I would mind him playing. He brought out his sax and a music stand and asked for the charts. I had a duo; me on B-3 and piano and a drummer.

Guy couldn't play one note by ear. Today, he is the head of the University school of music and only plays with a big band, where, naturally everyone reads.

Have played with lots of master's level players(that's the terminal degree here) who sounded awful.

I guess having the ability to play live AND formal training is the best of both worlds.

Good topic, Mark!

Russ

In my case it has been split from childhood on. I had many years of classical piano lessons so reading sheet music was required. But I always had more fun playing any pop or swing song I like and have always played such songs by ear. I can play hours by ear.

The BEST lesson I ever got was from a family member's boyfriend, who was a music major when I met him in the 70s. He told me to memorize the chords, not the melody. If you know the chords, and you train your ear to listen ... you can go much further. The melody is easier to "hear" once you know the chords. Ask any horn player, and they will tell you the same.

Second best piece of advice I got was to sit in with as many players as possible ... preferably better musicians than myself. Learn from them.
Served me well, all these years.

Thanks for all the members that responded. Yes I think that chords + intervals are the critical parts.
I have find out these nice lessons:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOxo6V7HTSc

Which leads to a bigger question for me? I'm wondering now how many musicians DON'T have formal training? What do you think? P.S. I personally think that non-trained musicians play better as they don't deal intellectually with music structure and rules!
Mark


Mark, my thoughts for the question you are asking:
Which is better, a non-trained musician or a trained musician? (I think I got that right) Who does the better job?

A trained musician is better equipped; by that I mean that his mind and hands have been trained to do a job. Let’s use the word chops to express his ability. The non-trained musician relies on what he is feeling. Both musicians can do a good job.

The musician who can do a better job is the one who is trained, and plays by what he is feeling. My choice would be play what I am feeling, but I need the chops to do it. So, the question is down to: What is the best way for me? Where are my talents?
Simplicity: The music I enjoy playing the most is where my talent lies.

IMHO, John C.

I remember we use to figure the basic bass first, then worked out the chord structure, when we were learning a new song.

re-worded question

"I'm wondering now how many musicians DON'T have formal training (out there, NOT in here)? What do you think?"

Nice letter, Bill....a slice of real life, plain and simple. Some TV producer should run with what you wrote and make it into a "reality" show. 'Cause that's what it is......REALITY!

I'm not ashamed to say I'm presently working out of a book. A jazz tutorial that teaches chord voicings and chord structure if you want to play jazz. I absolutely love the sound of these chords and the challenge in putting them together.

The Complete Jazz Keyboard Method

A large majority of musicians out there do not have formal training.
Most of today’s music does not require formal training.

John C.

No formal training, but sat with, listened to and learned from people like Ray Brown, Herb Ellis, Ella, Louie Belsom...even my friends J.D. Crowe and Rory Hoffman.

To me, that was invaluable.

Russ

I have that book and many more, they only tell which notes, there’s more to it than just notes.
Russ, has the best idea going. Hear, see, and feel.

John C.

Formal Training Vs. Playing by Ear


Who's to say that someone with formal training can not play by ear? If someone has had "formal training" and they can not play by ear, I say they're training is very incomplete. Ear training, interval recognition, melodic and rhythmic dictation, chord progressions,
transposition, transcription, sight singing (solfege) and improvisation are all part of a complete music education. If your only formal training was learning written pieces, you need to go further. Personally,I believe since music is an aural art form, one should stat with ear training long before they even learn to read music notation.

I believe learning music is much like learning a language. Does one learn to speak their native tongue with a book and list of written words? No, first the child spends a few years listening to their parents and other people speaking, then the child may start saying words, then more complete sentences. By the time the child is ready to read, he or she can hold a conversation and understand most of what is said. I believe music should be taught in a similar manner.

Let me add, music is a life long study. If you can not play by ear, improvise, or read music, don't just give up and blame your lack of talent. Go do something about it! That's the great thing about music, you can always learn something new!

Love it, I agree 100%

Paul, Very well said. My wife wonders why I spend quite a bit of my time with music. She will say something like “you already know how to play why do you spend so much time with it”? I just say you can never know too much, but she still doesn’t get it.

Kinda like GOLF, or so I am told.
Eddie

ABSOLUTELY !!!