Had a couple of hours to spare yesterday so got onto YouTube and sought out a selection of demos (The equivalent of going to a dealer demo) of the instruments in the title, switched on the main system to get best results and sat back to enjoy.

First off was the Yamaha Genos and it sounded great, however after a time it became very superficial sounding and not very representative of real instruments playing, (It became artificial) and I became bored with it.
The organs (Hammond emulations) is a sound I always go to first, and over the years Yamaha has improved this part of their instruments no end, and the Genos was no exception, but for me it still falls short of the competition, so no brownie points there.
Styles were typical Yamaha in that most were very song specific, (Although some nice new ones had been added) and tended to fall apart if you tried to simplify them, so still bottom of the pile for me.

Next up was the Korg PA4x and straight away I was into it, as it reminded me of live bands and instruments, (I am out quite often listening to live bands etc.) with my foot tapping away with the groove.
Organ: this has always been a strong point of Korg and the PA4x was no exception as it could get really down and dirty.
Styles: these just sound live, and no matter how you simplify them they still sound like a genuine style/rhythm.

Finally we have the Ketron SD9 and initially it was a bit boring, however after a time it started to grow on me and I thought, not bad, there is most definitely something there.
Organ: well this was a bit anaemic to my ears and just didn’t hold my attention at all, even after listening to aa few different songs.
Styles: some were great (If a bit repetitive) others less so, and I have to say that while the audio drum loops were convincing, (As you would expect being recordings of a real drummer) overall they were no better than the Korg’s Midi Drums, which due to their superior style make up just made everything sound real.

So there we have it, my personal opinion of the 3 instruments, and to round off my impressions:

Genos: meh
PA4x: It rocks
SD9: Not bad

Hope you all have good day, whatever you play.

Bill

Me I prefer the meh and i have GENOS and PAX4

It is a matter of taste if one was completly supirior to all the musiciand there was only one brand , to my taste GENOS much much better then PAX4 and since i have the GENOS i do not tuch pax4 any more , i have difficults to sell it in the market price

To my taste the pa4x sound much better especially the styles so I agree with Bill. Genos is just a catch up to the Korg pa4x. Look at all the hype about the upgrade 2.0 Wow a few new voices and styles and a chord looper. I would’t expect less for the money the Genos cost. And no I am not jealous

Didn't you leave out WERSI? I would love to see that
comparison Wersi to Genos

Videos are OK to look at, BTW WHERE ARE THESE VIDEO DEMOS CAN YOU POST THEM FOR US HERE PLEASE...?
to a point but in no way a realistic comparison sound wise compared to the real thing and how each unit is EQ'd for many reasons.

Personally since I actually have one & all of the above
my top 3 TOTL arranger kb choices are...
1- GENOS
2- GENOS
3- GENOS

Bill's assessment is reassuring for obvious reasons.

Bill does make very good points, no question about it. As much as enjoy my Pa4x, if someone twisted my arm and said “give up one arranger ,” it would be the Pa4x and I would keep the Genos. Love them both and as I have written in the past sometimes I like a steak other times I’d prefer Pasta Bolognese both great dishes. Some days I wanna play the Pa4x, other days the Genos. We all know it’s all very subjective.

one players lack of making the kb sound great using all it's attributes to tweak sound vs another who really knows how to dig in & do it makes so much difference in sound quality and here in most of these videos is the elephant in the room.

No one is paying $6000.00 for a Genos
they certainly can be had for a lot less then you would think.
Worth every penny.

Great comparison comments...thanks to all...

IMHO I think it depends some on the music you play. I like ballads, musical theatre, love songs....movie stuff, a little classical etc.... Orchestral stuff is my thing. So to me smooth playable instrumental sounds are what I want. And I like simpler styles most of the time.

In a nutshell I want the sounds to be excellent.

I did go play a SX900 for a couple hours and auditioned most of the sounds....I think it was very good and suited me fine for the most part...No Genos here close to go play so I just have to assume based on demos online...it is even better in the sound quality and accuracy (it should be for that kind of $$).

I loved the Korg for it's features and programability, but most sounds I like were just not good enough. And the styles were not all that suited for my kind of music, just not enough of the traditional stuff. I might go revisit the PA4X as the PA2XPRO I had is certainly a much older board.

I'll do some more analyzing, but I think I will go with Yamaha, and there certainly is a style or 2 available...a big plus for me.
Lee

No one has mentioned (or will mention) that the talent and playing skills of many of the Genos purchasers can hardly justify the $5-6000.00 cost of the instrument. It's like giving a Stradivarius to a 6 Yr. old. When you combine that with the fact that @ 80% of the music presented by forum members features VOCALS accompanied by, in most cases, some very 'basic' (read 'shoddy' to mediocre) playing. I'm NOT a musical snob but I freely admit that it is hard for me to watch a video of someone playing 1 and 2 finger 'intelligent' chords of 3 chord tunes. I always think, 'geez, they paid $5k for THAT?'.

Obviously, people can spend their own money any way they see fit, but it's probably not bad advice to say 'take some lessons, better your playing skills, don't let fake 'attaboys' delude you into thinking that you're better than you are, don't think that technology is the answer to everything and that all your musical problems will be solved if you throw enough money at it. JMO.

chas

The talent level of Genos purchasers has NOTHING to do with justification for buying one. In fact a great sounding instrument WILL encourage a player to practice more, and many have said they just can't quit playing the Genos...(this of course apply's to any brand)

If that 6 year old, falls in love with the sound of that Violin, he/she may well be encouraged to be a concert level player.

So if you don't have to move it around all the time (justification for a smaller board) and can afford it...why not get the best. I'm in the 20% that don't sing...so to me the quality sound of the instument is critical, and will encourage me to practice and become a better player of the music I like.

Just from my point of view...
Lee

And let me say Lee, that I totally respect your point of view. I'm a firm believer that your point of view is as valid for you as mine is for me. I think it's very healthy to look at situations from different points of view. Sometimes we even learn something.

chas

Lee...I like You're point of View!...Harold

Just curious,
Does that mean you shouldn't buy a Genos if you can't play like Peter Baartmans?
Sounds kind of ridiculous to me.
Next Question:
Why is it that all the nay Sayers keep insisting that the Genos cost $6000.00, even though it was numerous times stated by people who bought it that they payed around $4000.00
Just trying to keep it real. ...
Most people have bigger houses than they need ...
A lot of guys have bigger cars or more luxury cars than they need.
Where does it start and where does it end?
Who cares what anybody buys as long as they have the money and enjoy it.
Live and let live ...
Eric

Good thread! Here are some of my thoughts...If they are worth anything, I take PayPal.

I have long extolled the virtues of the Korg PA4X, and my opinion has not changed. EXCEPT my fingers and wrists have changed, and I now find it very difficult to play the whole night with the semi-weighted keys. Last night I played four hours without a break (my own choice of course, but it was worth it $). The lowly EA7 didn't bother my fingers at all.
Genos keys are not as heavy as the Korg or the Ketron, but are they too heavy still for me? Don't know for sure. I did love the keys on the SX900.
Whatever I get these days is excellent, and there are compromises for each brand and each arranger. No bad choices.
On the PA4X, pianos, organs, guitars, strings, EPs...are fine. I like the saxes on both the Roland and Yamaha better. Yammy guitars, particularly the Pedal Steel are unsurpassed. Vocal sounds are better on Roland and much better on Genos and SX. I am very pleased with all the sounds I used on the Ketron SD7/SD40. The "bread and butter" sounds I use are probably overall the best on Ketron.
As mentioned already, I feel the organs on Yamaha rank dead last, but I don't really use them that much anyway. Roland organ on BK9 is tops; EA7 is really good as well.
Style: All of them have their strengths and weaknesses. No problem with any of them finding what I need. It's an extremely subjective area.
Multipads are most versatile and useful on Yamaha, Korg is second, Roland "sucks" as the kids say, but at least they finally added some. Ketron--missing.
Operating in real time--Korg RULES with the Songbook and myriad of controls plus very well done touch screen. Roland EA7 is right there with it, though in a totally different way.
Yamaha is fine once you get really familiar with it, but I feel it still trails the PA4X in many ways. They are catching up though.
The seamless fills, breaks and variations on Yamaha styles are tops, while Korg is getting better but still has some deficiencies. Ketrons are excellent with as many as four breaks per style, although they are not that easy to select individually and use in real time. It depends on what you choose to display on the screen.
Korg rules on vocal processing/vocal harmonizing and overall e.q. Ketron is very close, Roland lags on the EA7 with no VH at all. Yamaha is finally making some improvements to the VH, but not totally there yet, although the vocal processing (effects, e.q., variety) has always been quite good.
Text display I feel is better on the Korg, but good on Yamaha and a little awkward to set up on Ketron. None on EA7!
Registrations are best on Ketron, really good on Korg (again Songbook), and o.k. on Roland, but limited to 100 per group. Yamaha is fine and there are many ways to use them. The great thing about the Ketron Registrations is that they actually contain all the data, rather than just point to it. The sounds, styles, texts...etc., are all contained in each Registration. Outstanding! You can take a Registration from previous generation and load it and even if the data are not on the keyboard, it is still there in the Reg. However on Ketron, organizing them is not as easy. Each new one you make is not automatically put in alphabetical order.
One added thought, I have only very limited exposure to the Genos so far and my Yamaha observations are mostly from models up through the SX900 and from manuals and videos.
All of the arrangers require time and effort to personalize and adapt to one's own wants and needs, and all of them sound excellent, though in different ways.
Again, NO BAD CHOICES, just what fits you best at the time.

This guy makes some interesting points.. Worth watching with an open mind.

when does yours is better then mine ever stop here?

Maybe I didn't make it clear in my post. I stated clearly that "people can spend their own money any way they see fit" and that my opinion was just that, an opinion. I feel that there was some truth in it even if that truth may be uncomfortable for some, and yes, I still don't think a 6 yr old should be given a Stradivarius, and I would question the wisdom of any parent that did so, regardless of their financial situation. As with a lot of things in life, it's not a matter of 'CAN you do something, but SHOULD you'. Again, JMO.

chas

Well that's certainly not what I said. I said they are all great.

Yes, you absolutely did, and correctly so. What's also great is your ability to gain the grasp you have of the various brands and models. I'm a bit awestruck by that. Kudos, mate.

Don sometimes it's the underlying message that gets lost..
all I know I am enjoying my Genos...yes I said it.

As I said towards the end it is how I feel about the demos.

The videos have been posted on here before, just type the instrument name into YouTube and have a look at the dealer demos that feature mainly playing. (Most feature the manufactures representative players)

It’s nothing to do with EQ, it’s about the feel the board gives you, the Genos sounds great, but in the end there is nothing there, whereas the PA4x is the opposite as it gives you the feel in spades, and the SD9 is somewhere in the middle.
The best description I can think of is live bands (Which I regularly go and see and which I base my opinions on sounds etc.) you get some that are there just to get paid and while their playing is good and accurate, there is just no passion there and the crown don’t take much notice, thus if you ask the crowd about the band, most just say meh, this to me personally is how I view the Genos demos.
The opposite to the above is the band that is there to get paid, but also have passion, tightness of sound, great feeling and really enjoy themselves so much that it just transfers to the crowd who just respond to it, and if it really rocks it forces the release of endorphins which really puts you on a high, thus when you leave you feel fantastic and want to see the band again, this to me is the PA4x, the sounds and styles just feel great, not endorphin great as it is just a machine after all, but it makes you feel great.

Wersi & Bohm were not included as they are single manual versions of their respective organ range, and thus have a feature set designed for organ play, (You do pretty much everything yourself) with the accompaniment section and arranger features being secondary.

Bill

With all of these various opinions...I’ve come to the ultimate conclusion!
No Comment

Chas,
I 100% agree with you on that one.
However, we are not 6Y olds and there are tons of Genos, PA4X etc out there vs a couple of Stradivarius
So are Mercedes, Lincoln, Porsche etc.
Maybe we are saying the same thing but expressing it differently.
The joy of the written word LOL
Eric

None of this is going to matter a hundred years from now. Be good to yourself; YOU deserve it. I'm here for a good time not a long time.

Funny thing is, that I never had anybody come up to me and say: Your KB does not sound Live, or your organs suck...
It is really just us. Isn't it?
I mostly get positive commends like: wow, I can't believe you can do this with a KB, or: it sounds like a band, or ...
All that since my trusted PSR-8000 ...
The online demos really do not do any KB justice.
Listening to them through a decent PA is a whole different story.
Like Don said: there are no bad choices out there.
Give me a little time to get to know a KB and I can make any TOTL KB rock ...
The Genos styles have really a great groove. Much better than the previous Tyros models. That is what will get people on the dance floor.
Eric

Excellent summary of the current arranger situation Don-thanks.

+1.

When the world only has ONE of EVERYTHING !!!
Just Sayin'

" This guy makes some interesting points.. Worth watching with an open mind" Quote from Fran.

When weighing comparisons on most forums, many do not have an open minds, simply because they have big bucks tied up in their choice, and they view any disparaging remarks as a personal rebuke. I think Fran's link, Don, and Bill tried to be very subjective, and I, personally, learned from each. As usual, however, it ends up personal. That is too bad.

Bernie

Tony, Tony, Tony. BEST RESPONSE OF THE DAY .

chas

As my hubby, always stated, where I was concerned, “ the ability to pay , not to play”.
I didn’t care , he indulged me, baby grand, Disklavier, numerous keyboards, synths , workstations. Did they make me a better musician, no, not really.
Worked out few months back, I could have just as much fun with an sx900 as I could with a Genos. Wanted the extra features an sx 900 had to offer over the sx700, but, would a Genos make me a better musician, no, only musical ability and practice can do that, I’m not that delusional. Apart from which, who is going to hear me anyway.
I only play to entertain myself.

For those who can afford and enjoy the totl arrangers , fantastic.
For backing, talented players can even make a mediocre keyboard sound good,
For non singers, quality of sound is important.

All keyboards have their pros and cons. What’s important to some , is not to others.

So ,basically enjoy what you play.

Thanks, chas ...

Rikki, after re-reading my own post, I guess it did sound a little dictatorial (and judgmental) to suggest that money spent on a TOTL arranger might be better spent on first improving one's technical (playing) skills. Certainly that is one's personal choice. As my Dad used to say, "if you've got it, spend it" (his actual words were, "if you've got it, flaunt it" and it was usually directed at young women in tight clothing - that was PRE 'Me Too' movement ). I'm still not sure if it makes sense to give a kid who flunked 2nd grade math, a SuperComputer. But who knows, he might use it not to map the human genome but to figure out the password to Dad's online banking account - or porn site. So yes, having superior equipment COULD possibly enhance one's intellectual and/or artistic abilities. So, I am now reversing myself and saying to one and all; go ahead and get that Genos, heck, you might progress from 2 finger chords to three finger chords.

All in good fun, Rikki, all in good fun. It's been calculated that a Hammond B3 has over 2 million combinations (registrations). That will keep me busy for awhile .

chas

Hi Chas,
I was having a chuckle at myself.haha Hope you didn’t think I was offended or something.

Used to make me sad, some young kid would turn up to buy one of my synths or keyboards whatever.
They’d sit down to test it out, fingers flying across those keys, and I’d think wow.

How sad, there’s you with all that talent struggling to pay for it, there’s me , room full of synths , piano’s whatever. How unfair him with his talent, there’s me , with a room full of stuff , basically wasted on me.

I appreciate recommendations and reviews. It really helps the decision making process.
I am happy when someone finds gear they are satisfied with after small or large searches and endeavors. Its not hard to disregard some exaggerations to get to what's relevant for my evaluation process.
I don't think anyone should directly tell someone else what to buy- it's their money not yours.