Hey Donny, I think that whole thing could be done as well on an arranger kbd. IMHO.

DITTO!

Well I haven't seen or heard something of that quality
on an arranger so far...just sayin'.....but if it is would love to hear it and see it.

+1

chas

From a 10 year old entry level arranger.

+2

And the drums sound it ...

I know others here have had some bad experiences, but I have to say that the 26 years I spent with the band in NY were BY FAR the very best years of my musical career ... no arranger kb, no matter how TOTL it may be, will come close to that ...

Here is my demo on the E-A7



https://app.box.com/s/4qf4v8sgwwkjftm0niab6ytwwc2x83g7



Here is my demo on G70

https://app.box.com/s/4z21w6wua0w8253oinyqllk66j132txv

Tony, it’s like sharing a meal with four friends --- you get their impute in life, and you share yours. And you get to share your ideas, and learn from their idesa --- and you have some to talk to, a OMB is just me.

There is so much more. Great post Tony, John C.

PS, when I left the band and started playing as a OMB, I lost a lot.

I agree,but there is always loss and gain to going OMB. We all know what they are,so we figure out what, or if there is a net gain,and go with it. I,however,tend to think of the great joy of making great music together,and forget the fights,no shows,weak sisters,and the like.

Arranger may not be QUITE as good, but most folks would not know the difference...just look at some of Peter Bartman's demos...ON GENOS

Good live music is wasted on those that can't tell the difference.

chas

+1

Lee - MOST Folks would not know the difference?!? ... MAYBE, if they are just casually listening, but otherwise I must respectfully disagree ... JMHO

As for the video, as we can see & hear, the drum kit is digital, so the only part which may sound different from an arranger is the bass guitar.

I tried to play with a semi-professional band and I didn’t really enjoyed that.

If we compare playing an arranger to playing with a perfect band which is in perfect conditions, surely, the band will be much more superior. But in a lot of real-life situations, sorry to say, PSR’a saxophone, piano or classical guitar would sound more “authentic” than real things. People have their “images” of how instruments should sound like based on listening to studio recordings, and when they deal with the reality it’s often not quite the same. In the same time, Yamaha, for example, recreates the very “studio” sound of those instruments.

It’s true that people would rather pay big $$$ to listen (or rather to watch) a real band; and there’s no much use of an arranger in a studio working on something which also involves a lot of $$$, but my point is that not always a band of decent musicians sounds better than an arranger.

Also, I keep in mind that each sound and style in my Yamaha is made by real people, and I always admire how professional, intelligent and tasteful they are. I must say, that in “intro” part of most styles there’s so much idea, so much essence of the genre that it’s really hard to compete with that (that’s why I only use short ones).

Surely we tend to polarize things for the sake of the conversation. There’s no real limitation on using it all, and the choice is often made by a specific conditions and demands we are dealing with right now, not because of some ideology.

I agree with Lee - at least that has been my experience over the years, most would not know the difference, and in reality, they don't really care. Lets be realistic, the vast majority of our audiences don't have a pro musician sitting down there and thinking, "He should have used an F-maj7 instead of just a plain F in that measure." as if he had the sheet music sitting in front of him or her. Our audiences, just like us, want to have fun, and be entertained. There is no other reason for the audiences to be there, unless it's a restaurant and the food is great. At that point, they are just casual listeners, as Tony calls them, and the music becomes secondary to the meal.

C'mon Chas and Donny, if you are only playing for those that know the difference, then you are, obviously playing for a very, very tiny audience, and more often than not, no one other than yourself and a few of the guys you are playing with. When I performed with a small, country band many years ago, most of us were average musicians at best. Sure, I could play a guitar and sing pretty good, but no matter how hard I struggled to provide a perfect performance, I knew in my heart that I was just average and never dreamed that I would eventually make a good living as a musician/entertainer. Yep, we played LIVE music, for LIVE audiences, and I, personally, never thought I was wasting my time playing music to people that didn't know the difference between various notes in the song. NOT ONCE! Had that thought ever crossed my mind, I would have got out of the business and found another way to make a living.

Good luck,

Gary

Gary....
do you consider playing an automatic arranger kb playing
LIVE Music?
Or consider operating an automated combination of small
midi style files combined with some right hand sound reinforcement?
Nothing wrong with doing it that way as we all know.....
sometimes it seems the easy way out but the bills gotta be paid right?

Many times it's better to for the listener just close your eyes, listen, & enjoy
versus seeing and knowing what is actually going on thinking it's a karaoke show of some kind due to lack of knowledge which most unfortunately without being their fault succumb to...
Hope I am making sense?

+ 3. Major difference: No passing chords or passing notes on the bass.

R.

I sure do!
As long as I'm the driver of WHATEVER musical bus (instrument) I'm driving - I'm 100% live. If I was still the keyboard player in a band, I'd only be playing the keyboard parts - nothing different than I do NOW - except that I actually do more now to trigger the added fluff that makes me sound better. Most times, I'm the bass player, too!
Don't be a Debbie Downer.
Of course it's live ... unless all you do is hit the start button and then sit down. Singers are doing more today than they ever did in bands, and that's a good thing.
If there's a living being on stage doing ANYTHING - it's live. Of course there are degrees of how much ELSE is live, but there is no way you're going to convince this player that what I do isn't live creation. I am, and always will be a live musician ... using the latest tools to enhance what I bring to the stage.

Geeeze .... I think you get too much enjoyment from playing devil's advocate.

I consider my performances as "live" music because I am playing and the KB is responding to what I am playing ... If I'm not playing, the KB only sits there and collects dust ! ...
However, I still think it pales in comparison to playing with other live musicians ...
However #2, I will continue to do it because:
1) that is the way of my music career right now;
2) I LOVE doing it;
3) my audiences tell me they love it too. (As witnessed by the fact that I just got an e-mail from a venue I played for the first time last week saying they would like me there more than once a month)

Boy, talk about a distortion of what I said. MY reference was to the difference between live music and arranger music. Trying to make it about "notes in the song" is just a distortion to make a point. Gary, I read your post several times, just to make sure I was reading it correctly. I guess it's okay if you feel that way but I just can't imagine any musicians I know or have known, who feels that way. For the musicians I know, the music trumps everything. But again, to each his own.

chas

The only thing that matters, to me and most audiences, is WHAT THEY HEAR. What comes through the speakers, or vibrates from the instrument is the reason we provide the music in the first place. If what they hear pleases them - Mission accomplished. If I enjoy it too .... double blessing! Without electronic automation, there'd be no Hammond Organs. Something's got to spin those tone wheels.

To those who think using an arranger is not playing music, why not sell your arranger and start or join a band. Simple. Then you won't be ashamed of playing, unless the band is really bad.
Then you could come on here and put down arrangers with a clear conscience at least.
I'm often asked to play with bands, even at my advanced age and I'm perfectly musically capable of doing so, on several instruments, but I don't want to and don't have to. Been there done that, enjoyed it mostly and moved on.
Love my PA4X, and the drummer is always on time, and works free. I get his share.

Yeah - what HE said ... and the drummer never gets the girl

Russ that is an old argument that is not true

If you are playing full chords with bass inversion.. the arranger can follow your passing chords, and you can control the bass (lowest note). Try it you'll like it

I will agree with Don Mason the Korg pa4x as it stands now is the best-performing keyboard on the market it just does everything so well for the kb player and singer does everything so right pro features.. and how deep you can go to make it your own it really is an amazing instrument I miss both of mine...

And then after using the genos amd 2 sx900 and a a few EA7s and a sx700 and a tyros 2 I have to say the pa4x Still Remains my favorite..

Man! How many times are we going to go over this topic? Fact is the arrangers today can be used in so many different ways. If I wish and am capable I can just use it as a single kb playing it as a piano or organ. My only real complaint about arrangers is the fact that so few use any variety in the drum patterns. Back in the days of playing organs we would pick a drum pattern and ude it all the way through the tune. It sounded repetitious because it was. We've come a long ways but 4 fills per pattern is still repetiious. It really comes down to how well does the performer play, doesnt' it?

What, you guys don’t want to to divi up one man’s earnings with at least 3 other musicians, a bass player , drummer and guitarist. Shame , shame , shame for not wanting to earn a quarter of what you do compared to when you use an arranger . Haha.

I would imagine a lot of these venues couldn’t afford to pay for a full band.

Thank goodness for arranger, the backing band works for free, the musician earns good money, the venue has a show for its customers.

Win, win, win.

Arranger style repetition is the real downfall... Hopefully in future models this will be rectified and redesigned to eliminate the automatic syndrome..

Hi ,
if one was actually capable of programming a style, no need for a korg to be repetitious .
There are 6 chord variations (cv’s) for each of the 4 variations , and 2 cv’s for each of the fills. That means you can have 6 different patterns for each of the variations, each one is assigned to a different chord type, so when you play a maj chord , you get pattern 1, play a maj7th chord you get pattern 2 etc.
In total up to 24 patterns for the 4 variations. Plus they can be up to 32 bars long.
Really no need for a style to be repetitive .

Korg doesn’t program the styles to use all the cv’s available, but it can be done.

Rikki can you show us some examples of what you're talkin about sounds interesting

Wow! Express ANY opinion that someone perceives as anti-arranger and out comes the knives. All I said or alluded to was that there is perceivable difference in (good) live music and music produced by style playing on an arranger keyboard. Apparently that was enough (although I initially only +1'd Donny's post). But I guess the fact that it was ME was reason enough to rally the troops (through a distortion of what I ACTUALLY said). I guess I should be used to it by now. If I'm not outright praising arranger keyboards, then somehow that translates into 'I'm an arranger hater'. It's really getting kind of tedious, the trotting out of all the reasons why Arrangers are the greatest thing to come along in musical history (maybe they are, for someone without the desire, ability, talent, time, or dedication, to learn an instrument that won't play itself). I have owned at least 6 or 7 arranger keyboards or modules and still have 4 in my studio. Does that sound like someone who 'hates' arrangers? I just don't revere them the way some here do and I freely admit that as I have gotten older, my interest in them has waned considerably. But my feelings about ME PERSONALLY using them professionally has not changed over the years and saying that playing an electronic organ is the same thing is absolutely ludicrous and the person who said it knows that.

What I don't understand is the unusual level of hostility towards anyone who has an opinion that differs from that of the 'forum elite'. Always the same tired arguments; "I love my -------", "this is an arranger forum" - implying 'why are you here?', etc. Arguments that rarely have anything to do with the subject at hand and only meant to stir up animosity against the poster. This forum is like a huge popularity contest with different levels of permissions for what one is allowed to say. Someone can post something and nothing is said; if I, chas, do a +1, then it immediately becomes blasphemy. Oh well, luckily I've learned not to judge society by small subsets of it. I still have several good friends here and even more friendly casual acquaintances. After all these years, it is still interesting, educational, and entertaining to participate in this forum and although you won't find the best musicians here (let's be honest, folks), what you will find is a more realistic microcosm of the society we actually live in (as opposed to the worlds of Julliard and Berkelee). Ok, now back to music.

chas

I have no problem at all, as everyone knows, with appreciating good music, no matter how it is made. The thing that bothers me is, "this is good music, so much better than arrangers". It may well be, or may not be, but why keep stirring the fire?
Not picking on you Chas, just the general tone of things lately. I've always said, I would love to come and learn some organ licks from you.
Maybe I need a break. Anyway, gotta go to work the next four nights, thanks to my arranger.

Chas don't so hard on yourself...you make good points here and there within. BUt it does show you the level of heartfelt love for the arranger keyboard no matter how it is used as a versatile instrument. Weather you embrace it, play it, or look at it agaist the wall in your garage it is here to stay, and the throngs of fans worldwide will play them for a long time coming. I personally get what your saying, but
I think and act differently in regards to what tools I use to make music all these years. Yes I will fluctuate, audition, listen, try again, listen again, keep for a while, dig in, edit, tweak, buy, sell, buy sell again and again, ignore what others think, try to help other musicians the best I can, as it's my choice alone to accept my path.
The staunch defense against anti arranger thinkers shows you
how strong the love for them is and I respect that.
Let's all get along with what we choose, play, and enjoy,
after all we are all making music in some way right?
Only thing that always annoyed me is that with so myc defense of an instrument there is always minimal sharing by others music to show what they are talking about on this forum....it helps us all

carry On

Ps: My next venture will be to go audition the Ketron SD9....
why? I don't know..
just sayin'..

Donny, I'm gonna go with UD on his post about whether or not he is playing, or the keyboard is doing all the work and he's just along for the ride. That keyboard of mine doesn't play a damned thing on it's own - period! Chas, that is what you said - I disagree. Nothing but a disagreement about what you perceive about our audiences. Imagine 50,000 Jimmy Buffett fans who spent hours waiting to see one of his concerts being told they're not smart enough to know good music when they hear it. Oh Hell, I'm just wasting my time here. Gonna go put some steak on the grill - I'm pretty good at cooking.

Gary

Yes Gary, ...tell the difference BETWEEN LIVE MUSIC AND MUSIC PRODUCED BY STYLE-PLAYING ON AN ARRANGER!!! What the heck does that have to do with Jimmy Buffet? Does he play arrangers? ....or was that just for dramatic effect. As long as you bring it up though, yeah I would question the musical taste of anyone standing in line for hours to hear Jimmy Buffet. But hey, that's just me. He's pretty rich so there must be a lot of non-music lovers out there .

chas

Where did I read something like that? ... Oh yeah:


Great minds think alike, Gary ...

If I had written and recorded Margaritaville I'd be on a beach in Florida fronting a five piece band, with roadies and groupies and banana smoothies too.

Naaaah, you'd be bored in no time........NOT!



chas

Hi Chas,
must admit I couldn’t imagine anything more satisfying than having the ability to be able to play with a bunch of talented musicians.

I was so in awe of my ex neighbor, even if he was just a drummer. Haha

I think he was up to wife no.3 also. Maybe being on the road takes its toll.

Hi Donny,
sorry can’t, my korgs are all gone and Yamaha doesn’t have the same capability .

In a nutshell. You could have 6 different patterns , one for each of the cv’s in a variation.
You wouldn’t want to have them drastically different, just minor changes, to just say the drum / percussion tracks, bass track , whatever, just altered slightly.
So for instance when you play a minor chord, it’s slightly different to a major chord, vs an 7th chord, whatever chord type one has assigned each of the cv’s to.
There’s ways of getting around having to record additional tracks ie copy and paste will work in many instances.

It’s something I spent time on experimenting with, the korg never ceased to amaze. Haha

Only three? Must have been a lousy drummer .

chas

Haha, no. No.3 was a keeper, she was lovely.
First time I met her was over the back fence, her comment was, hope husbands not too noisy, he’s a bit deaf, he used to be the drummer for Billy Thorpe and the Aztecs, his hearing is is a bit shot.

Flashback, 40 years, every teen girl I think was in love Billy. Sadly he had passed away a few months earlier.

Neighbor was a real collector old posters , records, , photos and lots of wonderful stories.

Chas, I knew you made up for the "uglies" with something. It's humor like that! FANTASTIC!

(Actually, truth be told, you're kinda cute, too!).

Rucc

Omg Chas,
You’ve got me in stitches, laughing.
Good old Bandstand. Loved that show. Brian mentioned a heap of people who’s names would only be familiar to my generation of Aussies.
A few went on and made it overseas, possibly the most famous being
The BeeGees. We had em’ first on Bandstand. Haha

Billie still sends the old heart a fluttering . Haha

Brian the compère is still around I beleive, only retired a few years ago from news reading.

P.s.
I especially luved the advert “Savlon D for dandruff” can’t beleive they left that in . Haha.

Thank you for a great start to the morning. Haha