Every "pro" arranger since the '90s has had an optional mode to control the bass line by playing the chord in a specific inversion. Once I understood slash chords and tried this feature for myself, I was amazed by the difference the correct bass note makes. BUT... playing chords in a specific inversion isn't always ergonomic or convenient.

I know that some of you started out on the organ, or learned to "kick bass" years before we had this technology. Good for you! But what I'm asking is... did anyone here BEGIN with a modern arranger, get frustrated with having to play specific inversions, and THEN start using a pedalboard to control the arranger bass? If so, how long did it take you to become proficient? Did you stick with it, or did you go back to playing specific inversions in the chord section?

Now I'm NOT interested in learning to play a boogie-woogie bassline on the pedals. My question is about just using the pedals as a lower manual, to supply the correct bass note for slash chords, or occasionally the root note for difficult progressions, etc. (Note- If the score calls for root bass, I probably wouldn't press a pedal at all, and the arranger would default to its normal Auto Bass Chord.)

I should also mention, I'm strictly a LH chord, RH melody kind of guy. So playing the bass with my left hand and chords in the right isn't an option. Thus considering the pedals as a third manual. Thanks in advance for sharing your experience!

As a side note to Ted's Q....is there a setting that tells the arranger don't do any bass I will do it all myself??

Ted, I come from years of Organ playing....so can't answer your specific question.....I can tell you IMHO learning to play the bass pedals is not all that hard.

I’d say go for Ted! Don’t worry how long it will take, just enjoy the journey!

It isn't that hard if you are just playing roots. Try playing church music,heel and toe,or any classical music. I fyou want to get a little motion,start with 1st and 5th. It is elementary but a start.

On my pa600, I can turn off the bass and play it either left hand or pedals. I have a 17 note studio logic bass pedals midi 'd to the keyboard. I started last week. But I use to play b3 pedals(jazz / Rock) 25 years ago, so I am out of practice. But it works great!

Search wrinkles124 on you tube . I made a video showing the difference in auto bass, left hand bass, pedal bass.

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I appreciate the encouragement (and all the feedback in such a short time!) As I figured, most of you learned when you were young and it was easier to learn something new.

Bernie, a lot of what I play IS church music. Chords (and often the bass too) change on almost every beat! It's evident that some of these songs were written for a two-manual organ with pedals. Thanks to the "easy" chord systems and bass inversion I can usually come up with a passable rendition. But doing so requires a lot of hand movement (and mistakes!) hence my question.

If I just needed to do root and fifth, there are instruments which have a built-in faculty to do this. Lowrey comes immediately to mind. There might also be ways to trick the arranger with footswitches, a MIDI module, and creative style programming. But too often I encounter slash chords where the bass isn't even part of the chord. I can't think of a system to cover all the combinations in a way consistent enough for it to become second nature (i.e.,"muscle memory.") Remember, I'm not looking to play polka or a bass pattern; just to follow the descending bass line as it might be written into the score.

A while ago I bought a 13-note pedalboard thinking that I might be inclined to try. It was quite expensive for something I've never used! Now I'm sorry that I didn't spend even more for the 17- or 20-note pedalboard, because it would be easier to play. For certain it would reduce "jumps" from B to D, etc. I think "real" church organs have pedalboards with two full octaves!

Somewhere deep inside me there's a wannabe church organist trying to get out. Unfortunately I never had access to a good organ, or the requisite training as a young man. So now I have to rely on ingenuity and technology to make up the deficit.


Lee, some arrangers do have a setting for "manual bass" which is I think what you're asking about. If not, it would be easy enough to mute the style bass, and then assign a bass voice to a set of MIDI pedals. Absolute worst case, buy a separate tone module and run the pedal bass through line in.

Teds, I tried learning bass pedals with the organ, and then with a Kn7000 and pedal board, then I sold the pedals. I did not need them for what I was doing. Most churches I have been in have a bass player – are you doing a solo?

If you do decide to use bass pedals, expect to lose some concentration of your right and left hand. Once the pedals become part of you – you play them without thought, you become comfortable again.

My organ teacher told me that the bass pedals guided his left-hand chords. I though it was the other way around.
Learning something new is always a plus.
John C.

PS, years ago, as a guitar player, I had a unit that had bass pedals. Eight pedals. Press one pedal and push the volume pedal to the right, you get a major chord. Press to the left, you get a minor chord. Simple bass lines, drums, and chords. Sold it.

I can understand that this goes well with churchmusic
But these days lots of music has very deined bass loops
That define much of the song..

This makes playing bass pedals quite a challenge..


Personally, if it wasn’t for the bass pedals i would be playing Wersi OAX
And even tough as a child i learned to play home organ
Not using the bass pedals in the last 30 years has erased that part from my experience

Hammond & Bohm do full pedalboards with Midi if you want to play in church style.
Another option is get an old organ with full pedalboard and Midi that is in good working order, (Or at least has parts that are still available) as they are cheap as chips these days and you can stick your arranger on top. (There are plenty of pedal self-teaching books out there on eBay etc.)

Bill

Thanks Ted for the hink, I'll look on the SX-900 to see if I can set manual bass.

Also, here yo go guys a great use of pedals:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2I6CIXv-XM

IMHO the VERY best way to play arranger IF you don't move it around is to add the lower manual, AND pedals. It's really nice with the lower as your not cramped into a little area for chords, and you can have access to all notes on upper for leads/melody etc. AND it is much more comfortable to have your L hand below and not so far left playing chords, after all that's all why they designed organs that way.

For not all that much effort and $ you can set it up easy.

Actually the biggest challenge is finding a high quallity 76 lower keybed..
None is making them anymore..

There are a few 88 key options tough, many not to my liking (touch) i tried the Nektar LX88 and the Studiologic, but their keybeds while semi weighted where sub par..
Now thee is a new semi wieghted action with 88 keys from Arturia, looking forard to test that..

I fully agree, 2 manuals in organ position offers the most playabillity.. seems only wersi offers such witouth the pedals, the OAX1 pro.. (follow up from the abacus pro)


I just wished Yamaha made a 2 manual Genos, with 76 lower key and 61 upper key.. and an option to add pedals.. The D-decks formfactor is just great. Or korg made a Korgan based on the pa4x with added kronos engines.. Or maybe 2 dual manual Ketron SD9?

Biggest problem o far is that all these keybaords don’t really facilitate adding a lower midi key... because i would definately want splits on both upper as well as lower.. Only GEnos offers support trough a 3rd party unit named V-console

From a pricing point tough, as soon as they add a lower manual they double the price...

Sounds like everyone is trying to find a cheap way to get back to what existed prior to the arranger era; a home organ with auto-accompaniment. I'm an organ player, or more specifically, a TONEWHEEL-type organ player. No 'B3' players that I know would ever accept two synths and pedals as a substitute for an organ; not even a consideration. Of course we're a biased little bunch so that configuration might work for non-organist who just want the convenience of two manuals (most people WON'T learn 'pedals' after age 60 ).

The configuration that works for me is my two-manual clonewheel on the bottom and a synth of your choice on top controlling an arranger module (or drum machine) on the side. In my case, I use the VP770 on top and the BK7m as a (very good) drum machine on the side. The VP770 has several good SN voices, is a fantastic vocal processor/harmonizer, and does a nice job playing the very good voices in the BK7m. This is my rehearsal rig and works very well when we rehearse (jam) without a drummer. The flat top of my organ (KeyB Duo Mk111) makes the synth of your choice very accessible with no controls blocked and a very short reach for the controller/synth's keybed. Works perfect for me. YMMV. It depends on how much your orientation is towards the organ.

chas

YES...that's what some of us want...back to a organ with today's arranger capabilities and sounds. BUT not the stupid price of any of the true organ MFGS. AND you can have it! at a very good cost point. To me anyways, a Genos with a good 76 under it, and a 17 note Studiologic pedalboard would be awesome.

Bill, many MIDI keuboards (as you may know) have split point and on SX-900 (genos too) you can set lower / RH split to MIDI ch 3 and you have RH 3 voice on the lower above the split pt. Nice. Of course ch 4 is left as well, for the LH split on the lower kbd. Easy stuff. Or you can do more complex stuff if you put a PC in the mix.

IF you find the correct lower, the arranger can sit very close and slightly tilted down, just like organs do on the lower. Even overhang a little.

A Yamaha NP12 or 32 will work great, just need to have a MIDI USB host box in between the keyboards. (or a PC)

If you play and organ it sounds great, if you play an arranger it sounds great, if you play and organ like an arranger it sounds c**p, if you play an arranger like an organ it sounds c**p, as while they are similar, they have diverged significantly since the first spin off of the early auto organ systems. (Use the correct tool for the job and it makes life easy, use the wrong tool and it is a pain in the backside (Butt)

Bill