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Merry Christmas to everyone and let's hope that the war never comes. We Europeans don't want war. Let keep it this way...I hope the rest off the world is also peacefull minded.

Alain

Alain,

I (retired military) and the majority of Americans do not want war either. But because of an evil minority in the world it sometimes becomes necessary, so that the majority can live in peace.

Fran in Florida

Fran: Your post was very short and well stated, happy holidays to all. ARJ

Like Fran, I am a US retired military person and agree that war is sometimes necessary to ensure a peaceful world in the long run. I am not convinced yet, that war with Iraq is justified. I was afraid initially, that President Bush would start shooting and ask questions later. However, he has bowed to the international community (and rightly so in my opinion) and is letting our community of nations (the UN) take the lead in deciding whether war is appropriate or not. It is my hope that if we go to war, we have a fully justified and legal basis for doing so and the mandate is given by the UN.

One thing is clear folks, if we don't solve the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, the Middle East will be a hotbed of hatred toward the United States forever. That does not bode well for the security of the United States and its people. I lived and worked in Saudi Arabia for eight years after retiring from the Air Force. I am very familiar with Islam, the Arab culture, and the feelings of the average Arab toward the United States. We (the United States)have had a wrong-headed policy in dealing with the Middle East from day one. We (again, the United States) rail against discrimination and enact law after law making discrimination a criminal offense, send people to jail when they break those discrimination laws, and then blatantly, in front of the whole world, discriminate against the Palestinian people in favor of the Israelis. We Americans need to get our house in order! We need to practice what we preach! The solution to the Middle East difficulties is to create a Palestinian state so those poor people can get on with their lives just like we in the West do. But simply creating a state is not enough. We need to support it wholeheartedly with financial backing, and political and technical assistance. In so doing we will enable the Palestinian people to pull themselves up out of the rubble and devastation which they live with every day on their tiny plot of land set aside for them. It is scandalous that the American people have allowed our government to be an active partner in the subjugation of a people for more than 50 years! We must turn things around and be a responsible, caring, honest, and fair partner in the Middle East. Discrimination against the Palestinian people has to go! Anything less is simply unacceptable to me as an American!

I was ready to end my little dissertation there but decided to make one more extremely important point. The United States has poured billions, yes billions, of dollars into Israel to support it politically, industrially, and militarily. How would you feel if you were a Palestinian living in the Middle East and your neighbor has the latest weapons of mass destruction, a huge military machine with all the latest technology - all given to your neighbor by the United States to ensure your subjugation? Want to know how I would feel? I would hate the United States! Where would we be today if we had poured billions into Gaza and the West Bank to build the all-important political, cultural, and commercial infrastructures needed in a sovereign Palestinian state? I can guarantee you we would be looked upon by the Palestinian people with love and affection, not hatred. Israel is self-sufficient now. We need to stop arming the Israelis so they can continue to destroy the Palestinian people. Let us resolve to raise the Palestinian people out of their rubble and poverty by giving them the means to create a happy and secure future for themselves.

I'm off my soap box now. Thanks for listening.

Chuck Piper

Chuck,

Well stated. I must assume you are also a Democrat.

Fran in Florida

If the Bush Empire decides to go to war with Iraq, it would be for one reason....
O I L !!!!

I hope this topic stops before we have our own war here on the Synthzone!

Marilyn

Thanks Marilyn, I was just pressing my uniform, polishing the buttons and cleaning my rifle!!! Walter.

Hi Fran,

No, I am not a Democrat. I am an independent because I believe both main political parties fail us in so many ways. It is becoming increasingly difficult to place any trust or confidence in our political leaders these days and I am not speaking of the United States exclusively because it is a universal problem. For example, in recent years, French, German, Japanese, Canadian, Italian, British, South Korean, Zimbabwian, and American political leaders have let us down morally and ethically just to name a few. The sleaze and corruption among politicians seems to have no end.

Marilyn and Walter. I hope we can have an intelligent, informed and serious debate on issues of huge importance once in a while without criticizing or poking fun at those who take these matters very seriously indeed. Like you, I would like our focus to be on music and keyboards on this, our KN forum. However, I think we should be accomodating enough to allow members the freedom to raise other topics for discussion if they have something on their mind they want to share with us.

All three of you take care.

Warm Regards, Chuck

CHUCK PIPER just don't sound like an Arab name to me, or is it?

Chuck makes very good points, and seems well informed. I agree with most of his views and I also believe that a majority of Americans agree, although you will never hear that in todays Conservatve Media.

We must find the reason for the hatred of America. Deal with it and the Worlds problems would be reduced

However, I fear our present leaders want a conflict in order to "finish the job" of Desert Storm. But most of all, the need to control the World Oil Supply by this Administration is the real reason our sons and daughters lives will be jepodized.

Larry Hawk

Hello Arthur,

No, I am not an Arab. I am a native caucasion American and Christian, born in Southern California in 1929, raised and educated there, and would like to think I am a reasonably well read and well travelled individual. I believe in the principles upon which our nation was founded, the most important in my view being EQUALITY among people. Our nation needs to return to its founding principles in its dealings with nations around the world. I've simply had a belly full of our official government support for dictators like Allende in Chile, Somoza in Nicaragua, and most recently our wholehearted support of Saddam Hussein during the Iran/Iraq war - and the glaring absence of any support for the Palestinian people.

Thank you, Arthur, for participating in this discussion. I respect your views and you as an individual.

Chuck Piper

I consider myself well read also. However I have very different views than you...and I feel every bit as strong about my views as you do about yours. I am one of those Conservatives you don't hold in very high esteem. I have a son serving in the US Navy.

I could write something lengthy about my views but I won't here. I don't believe it is the place for this discussion. I wish we'd get back to discussing the Technic's musical instruments. I don't like my blood pressure going up reading messages here!

Marilyn

Another prospective! We have just celebrated the birthday of a man who was born in the area of the world that Chuck Piper has just referred to. A man that was denigrated, hated, ridiculed, persecuted and finally done in by his own people. Why? For a message he came to deliver. For a message? What message? Repent! Change your ways and treat other people like you would have them treat you! Hard to understand? Kind of simple if you ask me. New idea? Just the old, old story about good and evil. Their history and law contained this principal. For hundreds of years prior, their poets (prophets) urged them to choose between good and evil. These prophets came to the same demise of this Jesus fellow. Your kidding! You mean this birthday bash we just had for this Jesus guy. Ya, that’s Him. The one they changed the whole calendar system for. The A.D. and the B.C stuff. The vacation guy. Vacation guy? Ya! You know, Christmas school vacation for a couple of weeks. No work for government people and some working stiffs like us. Big parties! Not to mention a super big money making month for the merchants. Sort of like when He threw them out of the temple and said it became a house of merchandise. Still going on but different products. Ya, all because He said, come on guys, change your ways and treat other people like you would have them treat you. In fact, He said, if you really want to boil it down, that statement encompasses all that your law and prophets have to say. Yes, we have just made a big thing about His birthday and could care less about what He said.

Why do others hate us? Why are others so angry with us? Do to others what you would have them do to you? Yes! We reap what we sow. Farmers call that ‘horse sense’. When heads are buried in the sand can we see? The man who’s birthday just passed said: Let those who have eyes to see, see. Let those who have ears to hear, hear.

A democrat? A republican? What was this man? He said He came to bring truth and His way was the way to life. I know, I know, so do our politicians and leaders. Think I’ll look at history, their motives and their track records and: By their fruits I shall know them.

I shall now post my thoughts, take my conscience with me to my KN, press the on button, calm my mind with a soothing melody, prepare to retire with my soft warm Ruthie and try not to think of those with no country, no future and no hope. I will ask repentance for the oppressor, mercy for their supporters, help for the oppressed and a good nights sleep. May the good Lord have mercy on us.

I am not an Arab. Do not now belong to a political party. Do not any longer belong to any religious denomination or organization. However I believe the statement: The JUST shall live by faith. Yes, faith that the JUST Shall Live. The unjust? Thank goodness that’s been given to another to decide. I believe the One who said if you mix good with evil you shall eventually die. Oh, heavens to betsy, what kind of a fix did I get myself into? You don’t like me anymore. I got a long, sad face and I don’t feel so good. I don’t like that law of sin and death. You accept my brother but you don’t accept me. Woe is me! Don’t fret Cain, my man, so the story goes. We got another law on the books up here. If you do what’s right I’ll accept you. How about that? You’ll find that one under the heading of Mercy. If your looking it up alphabetically, you might stop at Grace. Kind of the same thing. Maybe we could just combine them and save a lot of confusion. Up here we don’t force anyone to do anything. You make the choice Cain. Cool? Also got another perk going. If you like that mercy thing of mine I’ll completely wipe the past from my memory and we’ll get off to a new start. That concept is covered in the chapter on Justifica---- something or other. Same message from our birthday boy and his buddies before him.

Raised on the farm Ruthie and her work in the dirt sidekick Doug, (hay, I like that) seem to have come to the same outlook on life. The hardest task we have ever had was to undo some of the things our kids were taught in our lovely school system. Situation ethics!! The concept that there is no real hard and fast rule of good and evil. No real standard to guide one’s life. That whatever the group you are with and the situation you find yourself in decides to do and accept, is OK. Higher education? Makes me go through the roof it’s so high. Ruthie and me never had any problems with horse sense so we have decided to stick with that. Never had any problems with my KN either. Both have served us well. The two have a lot in common. A lot in common? Is this a higher horse sense? Come on!!! What are you talking about? OK! OK! This is how I look at it. Neither one, horse sense or the KN, will do anything until you combine them with practice. Hard concept at first but both producing excellent results. Look at it this way. Dead in the water, (an old navy expression) until you understand how to use them and get underway. Ya, I was in the service too. Under fire and still am in some respects. But, in any event, that’s the way I see things and am willing to listen to other observations with interest. Hay Marilyn, I snuck something in about our KN boards just for you. Clever, eh?

Chuck, the soap box felt good and I now yield it to others for their pleasure.

Grandpa Doug

Chuck Piper, I thank you for your prompt and explanatory reply. I was just asking a question, because, as you know, very few posters on this Forum actually use their own true name. You can write any kind of material you like, when nobody knows who the writer is, and thereby be shielded from any rebuttals to your point of view. I am pleased to learn you are a "red blooded American, that believes in the principles of the land that gave you birth, education, and sustenance, for low, these many years. This was not apparent to me when you said "want to know how I would feel? I would hate the United States." Hatred is like the problems we face, we need to get rid of it. As Grandpa Doug suggests, life is pretty much what we each make of it, and strife and wars, and unfairness, famine and misery, etc, and etc, is of our own doing, since the first day that man trod the earth, and I suggest it will always be thus, until the days of this earth are accomplished, and the judgement of its history and people begin.
I wish you and all others on this great Froum, the best 2003 year the we have ever experienced, and may the Force be with you.
GOD BLESS THE USA------------------ARJ

What's 'THE FORCE'???

If it's with you, what does it do?

Something like my ma FORCING me to practice my music lesson?

Maybe like the Jews FORCING people out of their homes with our help?

Could it be like the ENFORCER?

What? ?? and ?

Just looked it up in my trusty little dictionary. Kind of scares me!

Grandpa Doug

It appears that the old saying, "Never discuss Poitics or Religion", still applies.

Sorry if I or we offended anyone.

I shall only speak music henceforth.

Happy New Year,

Fran in Florida

Marilyn,

I am truly sorry that you misinterpreted what I had to say because I never used the word "Conservative" and I never said or implied that I do not hold Conservatives in high esteem. For you to say so is a misrepresentation of my remarks. You say you have very different views from those I have expressed. I respect you and your views.

Arthur,

Thanks for your kind remarks. Perhaps it would be helpful if I expand a little on what I meant when I said, "I would hate the United States.", and why I said it. I have been an eyewitness to countless people living in abject poverty in the Far East, Southeast Asia, and the Middle East. All of those poor souls would give their right arm and more to be able to lift themselves out of such terrible living conditions. They have aspirations just like those of us fortunate enough to have been born in America, but the comparison ends abruptly there. We live in nice homes, they live in straw huts high above the ground in Southeast Asia or huts made from tree limbs along the Red Sea coast. You don't see an American male walking barefoot along the road dragging a dead baboon home to his family for dinner in their dirt floor tent, but you see it along the Red Sea coast. You don't see American children pulling big beetles from window screens and eating them or devouring roasted locusts to fill their little tummies, but you see it in Southeast Asia. Yet these people want a better life. So do the Palestinian people - especially for their children. However, if you are continually kicked and beaten for 50 years by an adversary with the unqualified support of the richest and most powerful nation in the world, you have no chance of ever achieving your dreams of freedom, prosperity, and happiness. You will be held down by your adversary continually. Eventually, hatred of the oppressors becomes a natural emotion. So Arthur, what I meant was that if I had been kicked and beaten for 50 years I would learn to hate the United States and that is what has occurred with 3.5 million Palestinians. But it doesn't end there. Muslims are like Christians, Catholics, Buddhists, or any other religious group. Together, they form a brotherhood within their religion. They support each other. And so we have alienated all Muslims around the world, not just the 3.5 million Muslims in Palestine, because of our politically-driven unwillingness to treat the Palestinian people fairly and equally with all other peoples living in the region. Either we are a nation that preaches and practices equality for all races, creeds, and religions or we are not. I say simply that our foreign policy does not reflect the values we hold dear in America. That two-faced image we portray to everyone around the world is hurting us in our dealings with nations on all continents and we need to change that image. That is enough said for now.

Grandpa Doug,

You make a lot of sense, sir. You have the right kind of values - values that would stand anyone in good stead if they adopted and applied them in their daily lives.

You said you and Ruthie had to undo portions of what your children were taught in the public schools. That struck a chord (if you will excuse my play on words) with me, so I want to share the following with you because I think it is important.

Generally speaking, Americans are poorly informed regarding events outside the United States. I spent nine weeks with my dear brother and sister and our extended family in California this past summer. While there I read the papers daily while eating breakfast - USA Today, the Los Angeles Times, the San Bernardino Sun, and the Victoville Daily Press mainly. I love to read. I was apalled at the glaring absence of any meaningful reporting of events, opinions, political, economic and social issues outside the United States. I read the national and international papers here in the UK and they cover the world. What I am saying is that Americans are living in a vacuum so to speak in terms of information about the world outside of the United States. The American news media simply does not cover the world in any depth. The net result is that Americans seem to have little understanding of, or feeling for, the needs and desires of people elsewhere. They appear to others to have their "head in the sand" so to speak, or as it has been said to me countles times in my travels around the world - Americans are self-centered, selfish, and don't care about anyone else. Part of the blame for this situation must be laid at the feet of the American news media for not educating our citizens on the most important matters affecting other peoples around the world. I know Americans are caring people and care about the underprivileged wherever they are. But if you are insulated from the real world, you have no way of learning about the needs and desires of others. Public school curriculums should include serious and detailed studies of the world at large from political, economic, social, religious, moral, and ethical perspectives. Exchange students learn some of these important lessons. They are a distinctly tiny minority. If we can get the news media to educate our adults and schools to educate our children in terms of world affairs we will have a better world in the long run.

I have met so many Americans, Britons, Germans, Saudis, Thais, Koreans, and others who hold strong opinions and their attitude is, "I know what I believe so don't confuse me with the facts." Opinions are like noses. Everyone has one. The truth is the truth - period! Facts are facts and if one's opinions are not consistent with the facts, they aren't worth a hoot. I think you would agree with that, Grandpa.

Finally Marilyn, lets talk keyboards anytime. I'm ready and willing!

Like you Grandpa Doug, I yield the soap box to others. I've enjoyed reading the comments of all the particpants in this discussion.

Warmest Regards, Chuck Piper

[This message has been edited by Chuck Piper (edited 12-27-2002).]

Chuck, I think that you have a handle on the situation.
Does anyone remember the novel "The Ugly American"? It's been many, many years since I read that book, but if I remember correctly, the theme of the story is that as we go throughout foreign lands, the people smile at us and shake our hands and take our money while hating us behind our back. All because we try to buy their friendship, loyalty and allegiance by investing in their industries, or by just plain shoving money at them. The end theme of the book is that our politicians and leaders are too dumb to recognize that it doesn't work and that sincerity and compassion might work a whole lot better.
Nothing much has changed, has it?
Cheers to all in the New Year.
Walt

I think everyone has stated their opinions so I will now close this political thread before it implodes.