With new found time,I am trying to learn piano. I had a few lessons in 1952,and the fingering was 12312345,tucking in the thumb. In watching some keyboard videos,I see the right hand going up and down the keyboard without adhering to that fingering. Is it no longer used?

Bernie

That is the fingering I have used for 72 years. It is not a law as much as a help. I'm sure there are times I don't use it but I don't pay attention because I normally don't look at the keys when I am playing . It becomes automatic after time.

MEL

That was about the time I took some piano lessons too. Not sure I got that far though.
I remember learning the Marine's hymn and was proud because my dad was in the Marines in WWII.
Mainly I agreed to take piano lessons because the teacher was my girl friend's grandmother.
Maybe I went for six months, but it gave me some basics.
I don't know the answer to your question but thanks for the memories.

Bernie, It's the way I did it in 1962 when I started piano lessons and it's the same way I still play.

Bernie
Thats the smoothest way to move on the keyboard so I don't know if any other system has become popular. Once you get away from scales things can change more as you adapt to your hands and comfort. Just remember keep the wrists and arms level and relax. Go slow, really slow, and the scales will start to come along quickly. Good Luck

Bernie, great exercises --- and like Mel said, after a while try not looking at your hand. Not looking at your hand and playing the scales will make you even more comfortable on your keyboard

John C.

C Major Scale
1 2 3 1 2 3 4 5
Two octaves
1 2 3 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 5
F Major Scale
1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4
Two Octaves
1 2 3 4 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4
G Major Scale
1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4
Two Octaves
1 2 3 4 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4

That's how I was taught in 1977. But I took lessons off-and-on for 6 years and only got through the 2nd year book!

As I'm learning a song, I think about musical "phrases." For example, a chromatic run of eighth notes, or maybe even a few sixteenth notes thrown in. In order to play a run like this "a tempo," I've come to realize that I have to have my hand positioned correctly at the beginning of the phrase. So after a few fumbling attempts, I might annotate the paper score. For example, on an ascending phrase I may write "1" (or "thumb") next to the first note, so I know to reposition my hand at that point. If I remember to do this, I can usually play the remainder of the phrase by feel, and without moving my hand.

Sometimes I'll do something similar with the chords. If it's a slash chord that has to be played in a certain inversion, I'll write the word "shift" and draw an arrow so I know to reposition my hand. This is best done on a whole note, or tied notes when you have plenty of time to get situated. I may or may not write finger numbers above the chord. More so than the melody, the chord fingering has slowly become natural, at least in the familiar keys.

Now I'm not above transposing a song to improve the playing comfort or ergonomics- for example, I prefer to use my longer middle fingers on the black keys. Also, for memorizing chord sequences, there's a lot of value to playing in a familiar key such as C, F, or G.

Despite all this I still make plenty of mistakes, late notes and late chords, etc. I pretty much have to play a song over and over until it's ingrained in my "muscle memory." I'm no musician and I don't want to spread heresy. So if I'm wrong in the way I'm going about this, please counsel my ignorance!!

Thanks for the confirmation. I realize that is is very fundamental,which is where I am starting. When I get to comping on the right hand,there will be more jumping,like UD and Don have shown.
I am starting on Alfred's Adult Piano course. I have seen a myriad of piano courses on line,but I will hold off for now. Luckily,I have organ background,and can read both clefs,but slowly on bass as it has been awhile.

My first tendency is to play chords on LH, and even bring in my pedals with a fake book,but the voicing is so important on the chords,I have to experiment on which inversion to use,and have to guess as to using root or nearest bass.

Oh well,it is all good to use this time to learn a new skill.

Hello Bernie,
As far as fingering is concerned, of course, you do not start with the thumb on any of the black keys. So, it all depends on. Start on F# or Gb for instance... It would require different fingering. I've seen very little music written in six sharps F# but rather Gb except Chorus of the Hebrew Slaves from the Opera Nabucco by Verdi. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Verdi_Nabucco_-_vocal_score_-_III_4_Chorus_of_Hebrew_Slaves_-_Va_pensiero.pdf


Anyway have you worked on Hanon before? It is in public domain. I'm sure you can find it easily on the net. #39 in the book has scales and arpeggios. You already play the keyboard, and I don't think you want to mess with any method books, but the scales and arpeggios can help keep your fingers nimble. If you still want to get into a method book, there is a good beginners' book; an old German method book called Beyer (in public domain, too).
Chris

A lot of good wisdom from Teds and Chris.
If your aim is to play piano, piano books is the way to go.
If not, and you are playing keyboard, stay with the LH chords, and play RH scales and arps.

Having said all that,
I have my piano books out, and ready to go. (enjoyment)
John C.

Hi Bernie,

I would also recommend the Hannon book for the fingering of right and left hand scales and arpeggios. I think that is in section 2 of the book. Almost every pianist has put serious time into Hanon, I do a little bit everyday. Good luck.

Hannon it is. No shortcuts this time.

Thanks guys

Quick note on Hannon exercises ... Don't let all those 16th notes intimidate you. Hannon is for strength building, and should be learned VERY SLOWLY. In fact, painfully slow is a great approach to start. Use very heavy finger action to build up your muscles. Gradually, move to lighter touch, and build speed as your muscle memory kicks in.

https://www.hanon-online.com/the-virtuoso-pianist-part-i/hanon-exercise-n-1/

Thanks Dave

Ah yes, the Hanon books ... my accordion teacher had me study from those, and a lot of the scales and exercises had to be played with BOTH hands ... yes, on accordion ...

I had to use Hanon on piano when I took lessons. They are great in many ways. From time to time I take out book one and work on the first 20 when I feel I'm losing strength in my left hand especially the 4th and 5th fingers. Tony I can't imagine playing those on accordion with both hands.

Hi Bernie,
not really quite what you’re asking, but , may help with finding fingering for songs. https://youtu.be/pAPClyM8UZU

I decided to subscribe for some lessons to this site.
They have a lot of freebie video’s too.

I used to do a fair bit of piano practice back in the 80’s,
Cerny , Hanon , scales, arpeggios, Exercises of one sort or another. Probably a couple of hours a day. Actually didn’t leave me much time to learn songs . Haha. Should have gotten another teacher, probably would have helped me focus better, instead of just muddling my way thru it.

Anyway when I bought my p121 about 6 months ago, I was really only going to use it to mainly strengthen up my right hand again ( after the fiasco of snapping my right wrist). I thought doing some piano exercises might help.

Then thanks to Donny, and his endless stream of utube video’s, I came across the Pianote website. Lisa the lady who runs it , has countless short video clips on how to do certain things , but they also have classes.
So after a few weeks I actually decided to sign up for some lessons.
One of the little clips I found really handy was, what should I be practicing.

In a nutshell, basically it suggest find the song you want to learn. Learn the scale , arpeggios, and chords associated with the song and do a few finger strengthening exercises.

I probably would have gone off on another tangent, spent hours doing what I did last time. Eventually gotten sick of it, and given up.

Instead I’m actually learning to play a song from a lead sheet? ( chords, melody notes, lyrics) instead of doggedly reading every single note r/l hand from a piece of sheet music.

For the songs on the site , there are both options, note for note or from a lead sheet.

Having more fun than I remember back in the 80’s.

Bernie, after reading Rikki post I went back and reread your first post. Studies like scales and arps. are mainly used to give freedom of movement. To make your hands move without too much thought.

When I started taking piano lessens I and watched my Dad playing the piano, I had the same question as you – thumb under, ect. His right arm moved frequently, positioning his hand, rarely tucked his thumb. Fingers 1 2 3 4 were used, 5 when needed.

I took traditional piano lessens for a short while. What did I learn? I learned that I was having no fun.
I found a teacher who had a different approach. I started with learning how to voice and play two hand chords; both traditional and jazz. Which notes were important, and which notes were the color tones. Then I applied what I learned to playing melody and chords from a lead sheet. Now I was having fun.

For ballads and some up-tempos, it was great. For polkas and fast-moving music; back to scales and arps.
John C,

Wow! The approaches are confusing and I have barely started. Rikki and John,you both have valid points. If Hannon is useful for finger strengthening and arps,that is fine,but if I use a keyboard,it is not like the hard feel of a Steinway. Arps,however,are important. This ties into what Rikki said about how much time to spend on what at age 79. John,your later approach make sense to me.

I can do the following:
1.Read both clefs
2.Know inversions of most common chords on both hands.

Have trouble with independent timing of left and right hand.

I have an easier time playing from a lead sheet,but the left hand is inferior to the written part would be in many cases. The right hand borrows notes from the left and the voicing of the chord is not a matter of chance, I do know that it is recommended to use the nearest inversion in a LH chord change,many times the root is needed. A written part will tell you.

Maybe a little of both until I find my way.

Hi Bernie,
maybe a bit of an odd question, are you planning on playing solo piano, or piano as part of your arranger playing ?

What I used to enjoy playing all those years ago, was of no use to me when I eventually became interested in keyboards.
The solo piano sheets, quite often didn’t even have chord symbols, and the style I liked , left hand arpeggios didn’t lend themselves to keyboard at all, so I had to start over and learn what chords were. Haha.

With the online lessons I’m currently taking, I’m hoping to finally work out how to incorporate l/r hand piano into arranger playing, without just holding a left hand chord down. The course is sort of helping me think for myself instead of doggedly reading every single note, which probably wouldn’t work for left hand anyway, I’m not aware of any arrangements written for piano/arranger.

The solo piano sheets I’ll just treat seperately, and try and relearn ( if I can be bothered)

Main thing is , having fun.

Bernie, let’s kill the confusion. I am guessing that your main thought is playing an arranger keyboard, and piano for enjoyment.
“I do not have a Steinway piano – hard feel keybed”. Right, but the same exercises will still help you get more freedom when you play the keyboard.

Playing music that is written for piano, again for enjoyment.

Left hand. Important. I try to play LH chords (IIm7 IV V7 I) in the same area, regardless of the bass root thing. If you have a sound in your LH, keeping the chords in the same area generally sounds better; and it is faster.

My thought of the LH:
For Big Band type of playing, and some others, the LH sound is very important. It answers and leads the RH. If I am using a solo trumpet my LH might be a sax sound working together with the trumpet solo. Picture a live Big Band, that is what’s happening.

What I learned form my guitar days. If I am playing a song like All of Me, my LF pulsates or held. If I am playing Misty, it adds color to the song by moving a single note, or adding color tones to the chord.

Enough, I get lost when I am sharing this kinda stuff.
Take care my longtime friend, John C.

Hi Rikki

I am speaking of full keyboard piano. I presently use full left hand on my split setups with accompaniment,embellishing the style being played. Initially,straight piano and maybe adding simple brush type rhythm,not dependent on chords. I have always loved piano by itself,and knowing it is too late to master it,I can learn enough to supplement my keyboards.

Your welcomed questions lead me to be more focused on how I intend to use this skill,and you are right,it determines what route I take. I could take the easier route and learn the fake book chord approach,or the more difficult solo approach. The advantages of the former would allow me to use familiar material and not have to read left hand.

I have a tendency to bite off more than I can chew,and think maybe I should get out my "Learn To Play Piano From A Fake Book"

I would hate to fly off in the wrong direction and waste my time.

Everyone's help is appreciated.

Bernie, I'm no expert, believe me, but this is my experience. I say this because you have a background as an organist. I play three different (types of) instruments; piano, (jazz) organ, and Rhodes. And although the keyboards are the same, my approach to playing each is totally different (the action on my SEVEN is so heavy, I couldn't play it like a piano anyway - weak organ/synth hands ). Generally speaking, for piano I like a lot of 'runs' and chord phrases rather than single chords; for Rhodes, it's strictly LUSH chords with very little solo action; for jazz organ, it's more about the 'groove' and the interplay between bass and chording. After all these years, it's not something I consciously think about; it's like, the instrument itself dictates the approach.

As for your situation, I agree with you 110%; forget about becoming Franz Liszt and break out your "Learn To Play Piano From A Fake Book". In fact, that is probably the approach that will have the side benefit of improving your arranger playing. Another tip; play a recording of the song you're working on and just play PIANO along with it (using whatever approach you've decided to take).

Everything's harder as we get older, BUT NOT IMPOSSIBLE. There is probably never a time in your life when you can't get better at something.

chas

Chas, nice post, one of your best, John C.

++++++1

Here is some info on fingering and various scales.

https://www.pianoscales.org/fingerings.html

Jerryghr

Thank you Jerry. It looks very useful.

Chas

Your kind advice has tipped the scales for my basic method. You have accurately sized up my situation,and very succinctly and clearly showed me the reasoning. In addition,I plan on working on my fingering,great clef reading,and theory. That should keep me from being bored.
Thank you Chas.
Bernie

basically what I decided to do also except not from a book, but online lessons.

Some of the students are in their 60’s /70’s /80’s,

I can read Treble and Bass clef , but learning to play something note for note is a mind numbing exercise for me nowadays. The memory isn’t all that great.

Having far more fun learning tips and tricks and doing my own simple arrangements ,
which can be built on as I progress.
I find it so much easier being shown what to do, rather than reading it.


Bernie,
not sure if this might help, but, Chas suggested recording the song , and then playing
the piano part.
While I was playing around with the notation feature in Band in a Box the other day,
I discovered something I hadn’t realised before, I was aware the the individual tracks show up as notation for the “midi style “songs, but I hadn’t realised the notation also shows up for the “audio style “ songs.

Thinking maybe piano track could be muted, and piano part could be played live.
One would get a rough idea of what the left hand pattern could be , even if not , note for note.

Please remember the meaning of --K.I.S.S.

The playing/studying piano is for the enjoyment, exploring something new. You my improve your keyboard skills, but that us second. If I were in my 40’s the story would be different.

Let’s share the joy we are receiving from the piano, maybe something new we learned. The fun part.

IMHO, John C.

John
Yes, that is in line with what Chas and others were implying. I re-read your post from yesterday
regarding LH bass root. This would save a lot of jumping around.

Rikki
I wondered about incorporating BIAB and/or Powertracks into this venture,but haven't gotten around to using it since I bought it. It is an interesting thought,however. Also,you mentioned your on-line coarse; which one is it?

Bernie....I admire your effort & persistence to learn piano....
I tried it 3x in the past but after a while
I realized I am not a piano player but an Arranger keyboard player
big difference ....so I gave it up, sold off the pianos,
and returned to what I do best play arranger kb & sing.

Yeah, but what would life be if we only did what was easy. Challenge is what makes most of us get up in the morning. Remember, it's the JOURNEY......

chas

yes but the journey and road always comes to an end..

life is to short to dilly dally

If your a good singer, a very simple piano accompaniment will get you very far. The chord skills you have on an arranger can pretty easily transfer to basic vocal accompaniment on the piano. Think of all those quarter note rock ballads like "Let it Be" "Imagine" "Don't Stop Believing" You really don't have to be a piano virtuoso to play that kind of stuff. I say any arranger player that sings should have at least a couple songs that they can do just as a piano/ vocal. Someday you're going to be at a party and there will be an acoustic piano, and your friends are going to ask to to play and sing something. Are you going to be a party pooper and say you can only play an arranger keyboard?

Actually awhile back I went to a nursing home looking for work. I introduce myself " Hi, I'm Paul, I play keyboards and sing...."
The activity director says " Ok, there's a piano in the corner, let's see what you got" I almost started to make an excuse, saying that I would need my special keyboard that can sound like a whole orchestra, but I just went for it and she hired me. When I did the gig, I brought my keyboard, speakers, mic..... After the show, she said, why did you bring all that equipment? She went on to say, she liked it better when I just played on the house piano and sang. So that's what I do at that place now. Less gear to lug around!

Donny.
Well, I guess everyone has his/her own philosophy of life. Mine, the journey; yours, the destination. I guess I just don't see the benefit of discouraging someone from doing something just because it's hard. What about the joy of overcoming a challenge or accomplishing something you thought you couldn't. The truth is, everybody's 'destination' is going to be the same, so you might as well make the best of the journey.

chas

Chas why are you always looking to stir the pot?

my quote: "Bernie....
I admire your effort & persistence to learn piano.."

I thought was positive...

the rest was all about "my own personal experience" of which in no way was to discourage Bernie. But of course you had to spin it in a way to be a negative thing. I was being honest nothing wrong with that. Kinda early in the morning to argue.....mask back on now.

Can we frame this post?

chas

Sorry. Wasn't trying to 'stir the pot'. I guess I misread your above post. Apologies.

chas

Thank you Chase. Being the father of a teenage daughter and a high school teacher, I feel like most advice I give falls onto deaf ears.

Montunoman

It certainly is excellent,and thank you for the advice from one of the best. You just lowered the bar

Bernie

Hi Bernie,
Pianote

https://www.pianote.com/

You don’t have to join right away, they have a heap of free utube clips, check some of those out first, and see if you think you’d enjoy it.

Basically the course consists of foundations, which is theory, helping with playing skills etc
Section on chords and scales.
Student focus, which has a boot camp, tips and tricks ( a lot of these are the free utube clips)

A song section, where they teach you to play songs, from lead sheets and some have the full notation. With the one’s from lead sheets they teach how to do the fills and other bits to make your song sound good. Ie really basic or they show you how to embellish..

The course is broken into different sections.

Check utube first though and some of the clips. Just Putin pianote

P.s. I haven’t bothered with the books , I do mine from iPad ,

I especially appreciate this sort of discussion. I’m not as old as old as Bernie, only 78, and my musical education was pretty much limited to about 18 months in the early 50’s accordion mills. I played in a band in the 50’s, after the big band era, the accordion player was initially relegated to mashing chords to emulate the big band background. So, although I had been playing out about 3X/week of late, I am a neophyte and still learning.
Not too long ago, I believe it was John C, (bruno123), suggested to someone to just learn and practice the D,G,C,F and maybe Bb scales and learn the relative II-V-I progressions and that has been my current undertaking. It seemed to be just enough for me to bite and chew comfortably. Again, thanks and keep those little bites coming …
Ciao,
Jerry

Hi,
actually one of the packs in my course is “ 500 Songs in 5 Days”,

I have never known what to play as far as accompaniment goes, it’s actually quite simple to play a basic accompaniment.

Certainly didn’t learn 500 songs in 5 days ( haha) but the idea is the songs are based on the 1,IV, V, VI ,chords not in that order and the 500 songs that contain the chords.

No reading involved, ( never played without written notes in my life)

Then it teaches you about inversions and how to add embellishments, and for those of us who don’t sing ( me) it teaches how to add melody ( by ear) .

Each day , a new lesson to help learn some of those 500 songs.

Let it Be is one of them. Possibly so is Imagine, haven’t looked thru them all yet.

My hands are not what they used to be. Between Parkinson disease, age, and not playing out I have lost some.

1-I am playing some piano, not much.
2-Put my iPad away, I am using a laptop mirrored to a 23” monitor.
3-Copied all my old Polkas, fast up-beat, and favorite songs into a folder.
4-My daily routine is playing these songs, most in original keys, each day. The tempo on each song is lowered about 20% I will rase the tempo when I get comfortable. Lock-down is not that bad.
It is amazing how my LH moves to each chord without looking at the music.

Jerry, trying to explain a subject sometimes gets lost in the written explanation. So, I am going to record myself singing, talking and playing my explanation; it will be much easier to understand.

John C.

I'm looking forward to that John! You are exactly right about trying to explain what we're doing.

That may be so,Don,but you did a great job trying to make me see how you "comp" about a year ago. I do agree that a demonstration is better for the average wannabe.

Rikki

Thank you for the link and great description of your coarse. I will look into it.

You’re welcome Bernie ,

Here’s a link to one of her quick tutorials, if you subscribe it should take you to the rest of the utube tutorials, it will give you a better idea as to whether it’s worth signing up for the course.

The free quick tips on utube might be all you need.

https://youtu.be/LSE9mXf6NxE

This one is a super simple piano accompaniment ( even easier than my 500 songs course. Haha)
https://youtu.be/eCsKg8i1Ru8