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#497598 - 05/24/20 12:46 PM MIDI command for Yamaha (Genos/Tyros) ROTARY SPEED
jimlaing Offline
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Registered: 09/24/02
Posts: 581
Loc: Raleigh, NC
Hi - I can't seem to find the MIDI command that will trigger or toggle ROTARY SPEED (fast/slow) on Yamaha Genos. They have a huge list of functions one can control on the MIDI, "External Controllers" page, everything under the sun is on the list, except Rotary Speed (Fast/Slow)!

I can't find reference to a CC# that will do this, nor a NNPR or SysEx or anything.

I'd like to have a MIDI programmable button on an external device, send the appropriate MIDI command to tell Genos "Toggle the Rotary Speed Now".

Can this be done?
Thanks!
Jim
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#497599 - 05/24/20 01:24 PM Re: MIDI command for Yamaha (Genos/Tyros) ROTARY SPEED [Re: jimlaing]
Dnj Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php?board=74.0

Jim ask here maybe you will get the answer..

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#497601 - 05/24/20 02:49 PM Re: MIDI command for Yamaha (Genos/Tyros) ROTARY SPEED [Re: jimlaing]
jimlaing Offline
Member

Registered: 09/24/02
Posts: 581
Loc: Raleigh, NC
Hi - thanks - yes, I did post this question there as well . . .
Jim
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#497602 - 05/24/20 02:53 PM Re: MIDI command for Yamaha (Genos/Tyros) ROTARY SPEED [Re: jimlaing]
Fran Carango Offline
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Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
Jim there is no predetermined cc code for fast/ slow.
Most manufacturers use cc#1 mod wheel/lever. You can do a midi learn and assign where you want.(DAW).
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#497605 - 05/24/20 03:40 PM Re: MIDI command for Yamaha (Genos/Tyros) ROTARY SPEED [Re: jimlaing]
jimlaing Offline
Member

Registered: 09/24/02
Posts: 581
Loc: Raleigh, NC
It would be nice if even a SysEx code could be found that literally did the same thing as pressing the RotarySP button ... toggled Rotary speed (then you wouldn't need one button for Fast and another for Slow on the external device, or need to use a slider or wheel) . . .

Just hoping that Yamaha can tell which command tells the Genos to do the same thing as pressing Rotary SP . . .

Thanks,
Jim
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#497616 - 05/24/20 08:21 PM Re: MIDI command for Yamaha (Genos/Tyros) ROTARY SPEED [Re: jimlaing]
Torch Offline
Member

Registered: 12/17/12
Posts: 770
Jim,
It says in the parameter chart of the Genos Data List that rotary speed can not be MIDI controlled. However, it lists so many different rotary control features that can be MIDI controlled.

Chris


Attachments
Rotary 2.JPG

Rotary 1.JPG


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#497622 - 05/25/20 02:26 AM Re: MIDI command for Yamaha (Genos/Tyros) ROTARY SPEED [Re: jimlaing]
MacAllcock Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/02
Posts: 1221
Loc: Preston, Lancashire, England
The LFO speed and depth parameters are adjustable using XG
parameter change sysex messages. Page 64 of the data list.

Not particularly convenient.

Is there / has there ever been a hardware controller available that handles XG parameter changes by mapping to a slider or knob?
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#497626 - 05/25/20 08:10 AM Re: MIDI command for Yamaha (Genos/Tyros) ROTARY SPEED [Re: jimlaing]
jimlaing Offline
Member

Registered: 09/24/02
Posts: 581
Loc: Raleigh, NC
Hi - thanks for the various info that people have posted. What is interesting is that Rotary Speed (Fast/Slow toggle) can be assigned to an assignable button, and can be assigned to a footswitch plugged into the Genos. And that the Extrnal Controllers list of items that can be controlled is huge, but omits Rotary Speed (Fast/Slow toggle). It certainly sounds like it would be technically possible for Yamaha to have allowed this control to be triggered just like the other ~100 items on the list for External MIDI Controller; I think it was just an oversight; somehow the engineer didn't happen to include this one item on the list.

I'm going to try a MIDI Monitor on the Genos to see what is sent (if anything ) when I press the Rotary SP button . . .

Jim
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#497627 - 05/25/20 08:15 AM Re: MIDI command for Yamaha (Genos/Tyros) ROTARY SPEED [Re: jimlaing]
jimlaing Offline
Member

Registered: 09/24/02
Posts: 581
Loc: Raleigh, NC
I got my answer: When I press RotarySP, the following is sent:

on/Fast:
10:13:48.156 From MIDI SysEx Yamaha 9 bytes F0 43 10 4C 03 01 02 01 F7

off/Slow:
10:13:48.897 From MIDI SysEx Yamaha 9 bytes F0 43 10 4C 03 01 02 00 F7

Now if I can get my controller to send this MIDI string . . . ?
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#497633 - 05/25/20 10:52 AM Re: MIDI command for Yamaha (Genos/Tyros) ROTARY SPEED [Re: jimlaing]
salsaman Offline
Member

Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 175
Loc: Port Angeles, WA., USA
Just curious but does the Rotary Speed ramp up and down when you cycle the Rotary SP switch or does it immediately go fast then slow? On my Tyros models, the default on the mod wheel goes fast immediately then stop on the opposite throw of the wheel.
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#497634 - 05/25/20 10:55 AM Re: MIDI command for Yamaha (Genos/Tyros) ROTARY SPEED [Re: salsaman]
salsaman Offline
Member

Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 175
Loc: Port Angeles, WA., USA
Does your external controller keyboard have a midi/controller "learn" mode that could be utilized to learn the Rotary Switch control message ?
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#497638 - 05/25/20 11:50 AM Re: MIDI command for Yamaha (Genos/Tyros) ROTARY SPEED [Re: jimlaing]
MacAllcock Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/02
Posts: 1221
Loc: Preston, Lancashire, England
On the SX700 / 900 the rotary change is immediate when achieved using sample switching, and accelerates / deccelerates if achieved using DSP.

And those sysex data streams....

F0 43 10 4C : XG parameter incoming (page 122)

03 : Address HH
01 : Address MM
02 : Address LL
01 : value
F7 : end of Sysex

Address 03 - insertion effect parameter change (page 101)
01 - insertion effect number - 1
02_- insertion effect parameter number 1

So, the rotary effect used must be Real Rotary as that's the one (that I missed earlier) where parameter 1 switches the speed!


Edited by MacAllcock (05/25/20 11:52 AM)
Edit Reason: Typo
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#497641 - 05/25/20 12:48 PM Re: MIDI command for Yamaha (Genos/Tyros) ROTARY SPEED [Re: jimlaing]
jimlaing Offline
Member

Registered: 09/24/02
Posts: 581
Loc: Raleigh, NC
Thanks- interesting info. In my case, I mostly use the "Flutes" organs that use DSP, so RotarySP switch gives a nice Leslie-like gradual-to-fast or gradual-to-slow speed change.

My Code49 does not have a "Learn" mode; it has alot of settings but fairly "fixed". It cannot send a generic MIDI string, nor learn a MIDI string.

I sent the following to Yamaha, trying to give it a positive feel to request the feature:

"I know that Yamaha is well-known for listening to their customer's ideas and suggestions ... Here is a Feature Request. The MIDI, External Controllers page lets us set MANY (over 100?!) parameters to be controlled using external MIDI devices. I'm requesting adding of one more item: ROTARY SP. That is, since an internal footswitch can be set to control ROTARY SP (rotary speed fast/slow toggle), it seems like it would possible to have an external MIDI device control be able to control ROTARY SP as well as the many other items in the list. It would be HUGELY useful to me (and likely others, as I have seen this come up on the Forums by others too). THANKS! I really appreciate that Yamaha listens to its customers!"
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#497649 - 05/25/20 03:06 PM Re: MIDI command for Yamaha (Genos/Tyros) ROTARY SPEED [Re: jimlaing]
TedS Offline
Member

Registered: 04/28/06
Posts: 834
Loc: North Texas, USA
My experience is that Yamaha only accepts input from influential insiders. They discount feedback from their rank-and-file customers, and don't readily admit it when they're wrong. They don't even document when they've changed certain things, perhaps for fear of being perceived that they got it wrong in the first place. That's my $.02, anyhow. [Edit: they have the arranger market in the U.S., and maybe the bulk of the broader keyboard market sewn up. If you walk into a music store in the U.S. all you see is Yamaha. So why should they change, or do anything to rock the boat?] Good luck!


Edited by TedS (05/25/20 03:11 PM)

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#497652 - 05/25/20 06:31 PM Re: MIDI command for Yamaha (Genos/Tyros) ROTARY SPEED [Re: jimlaing]
travlin'easy Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15576
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
Ted, for the most part, Yamaha HAS listened to it's customers, initiated many of the changes those customers requested, and had a large thread entitled "YAMAHA LISTENS" where consumers posted those requests.

When the displays went bad on the PSR-900, Yamaha stepped up to the plate and replaced the defective screens at no charge, even a year or more after the keyboard was out of warranty. When there was a software glitch, they came through with free upgrades and provided lots of user friendly instructions on how to install those upgrades. The list of things they changed that users requested is very extensive. I do not consider myself an influential insiders. However, I have had nothing but good experiences in dealing with Yamaha.

All the best,

Gary cool
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#497654 - 05/25/20 08:18 PM Re: MIDI command for Yamaha (Genos/Tyros) ROTARY SPEED [Re: jimlaing]
Torch Offline
Member

Registered: 12/17/12
Posts: 770
Originally Posted By jimlaing
I got my answer: When I press RotarySP, the following is sent:

on/Fast:
10:13:48.156 From MIDI SysEx Yamaha 9 bytes F0 43 10 4C 03 01 02 01 F7

off/Slow:
10:13:48.897 From MIDI SysEx Yamaha 9 bytes F0 43 10 4C 03 01 02 00 F7

Now if I can get my controller to send this MIDI string . . . ?
Have you tried to send sysex messages to your Genos uning some IOS apps? You can use MIDI OX or a simpler app Send SX. https://www.bome.com/products/sendsx

Not too many MIDI devices these days that can program and send sysex messages. Some high end MIDI foot controllers can. I know that some old Novation and Roland MIDI controllers can also.
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#497658 - 05/25/20 10:47 PM Re: MIDI command for Yamaha (Genos/Tyros) ROTARY SPEED [Re: TedS]
Bachus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/02/06
Posts: 7143
Originally Posted By TedS
My experience is that Yamaha only accepts input from influential insiders. They discount feedback from their rank-and-file customers, and don't readily admit it when they're wrong. They don't even document when they've changed certain things, perhaps for fear of being perceived that they got it wrong in the first place. That's my $.02, anyhow. [Edit: they have the arranger market in the U.S., and maybe the bulk of the broader keyboard market sewn up. If you walk into a music store in the U.S. all you see is Yamaha. So why should they change, or do anything to rock the boat?] Good luck!


Actually there is not a single Yamaha...

Yamaha US is their synth division
Yamaha EU is their arrangers and piano division

These divisions advice Yamaha Japan about features
And are in charge of the content (styles, arps, sounds)

Both parts work independantly..

Yamaha US now ha stheir own synth forum, where they discuss things with customers. And when you look at the Montage, Modx, the influence of the customers is huge..

Yamaha EU doesn’t directly communicate with customers. They only communicate trough their dealer network in EU. The problem is these dealers have a whole different idea about arrangers then a part of the customers..


And then there is Yamaha Japan, that wants as few crossovers between different types of products as possible.. they are kind of the guardians of the development traject. The western divisions acknowledge communication with Japan is rough.


The company is very traditional and conservative, choosing quallity above innovation. Just ask yourself how much has a grandpiano changed over the last century? Then take this attitude and project it on keyboards..


Anyway, back to Yamaha EU, their designs are still mostly based on a stand alone can do it all design. Thats why certain things dont get the attention they needs (midi, integration with other hardware and software products is one of them) ... but also keep in mind that the majority of users doesnt really care about these kind of things.. so the dealers dont push them... Whenever you go to a yamaha dealer presentation and look around for the typical Yamaha customer, you will notice..
Yamaha US has no influence or part in the arranger design.. same goes for Yamaha EU and the synth part.. thats one of the reaons why i think the arrangers feel somewhat alienated in the US. In most european music shops they are still the central part of the shop..
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#497665 - 05/26/20 02:43 AM Re: MIDI command for Yamaha (Genos/Tyros) ROTARY SPEED [Re: travlin'easy]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5392
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Originally Posted By travlin'easy
Ted, for the most part, Yamaha HAS listened to it's customers, initiated many of the changes those customers requested, and had a large thread entitled "YAMAHA LISTENS" where consumers posted those requests.

When the displays went bad on the PSR-900, Yamaha stepped up to the plate and replaced the defective screens at no charge, even a year or more after the keyboard was out of warranty. When there was a software glitch, they came through with free upgrades and provided lots of user friendly instructions on how to install those upgrades. The list of things they changed that users requested is very extensive. I do not consider myself an influential insiders. However, I have had nothing but good experiences in dealing with Yamaha.

All the best,

Gary cool


That’s pretty much the same with all manufactures (Have a look in the manuals or online and you will find a contact email where you can make suggestions for future instruments which are all duly noted.
Yamaha used to be pretty naff when it came to adding new features via updates (Unlike pretty much every other manufacture) however since the Genos line and its offshoots they now add things left, right and centre. (People are no longer willing to shell out the cash every 3 years or so to buy a new instrument)

Bill
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#497666 - 05/26/20 02:46 AM Re: MIDI command for Yamaha (Genos/Tyros) ROTARY SPEED [Re: Bachus]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5392
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Originally Posted By Bachus
Originally Posted By TedS
My experience is that Yamaha only accepts input from influential insiders. They discount feedback from their rank-and-file customers, and don't readily admit it when they're wrong. They don't even document when they've changed certain things, perhaps for fear of being perceived that they got it wrong in the first place. That's my $.02, anyhow. [Edit: they have the arranger market in the U.S., and maybe the bulk of the broader keyboard market sewn up. If you walk into a music store in the U.S. all you see is Yamaha. So why should they change, or do anything to rock the boat?] Good luck!


Actually there is not a single Yamaha...

Yamaha US is their synth division
Yamaha EU is their arrangers and piano division

These divisions advice Yamaha Japan about features
And are in charge of the content (styles, arps, sounds)

Both parts work independantly..

Yamaha US now ha stheir own synth forum, where they discuss things with customers. And when you look at the Montage, Modx, the influence of the customers is huge..

Yamaha EU doesn’t directly communicate with customers. They only communicate trough their dealer network in EU. The problem is these dealers have a whole different idea about arrangers then a part of the customers..


And then there is Yamaha Japan, that wants as few crossovers between different types of products as possible.. they are kind of the guardians of the development traject. The western divisions acknowledge communication with Japan is rough.


The company is very traditional and conservative, choosing quallity above innovation. Just ask yourself how much has a grandpiano changed over the last century? Then take this attitude and project it on keyboards..


Anyway, back to Yamaha EU, their designs are still mostly based on a stand alone can do it all design. Thats why certain things dont get the attention they needs (midi, integration with other hardware and software products is one of them) ... but also keep in mind that the majority of users doesnt really care about these kind of things.. so the dealers dont push them... Whenever you go to a yamaha dealer presentation and look around for the typical Yamaha customer, you will notice..
Yamaha US has no influence or part in the arranger design.. same goes for Yamaha EU and the synth part.. thats one of the reaons why i think the arrangers feel somewhat alienated in the US. In most european music shops they are still the central part of the shop..



Pretty much spot on, however every so often they get Yamaha owners together (Doesn’t include the US due to minuscule sales there) to show what Yamaha are looking to produce in the future (All covered by an NDA of course) so that they can get feedback before the final decision on production is made.

Bill
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English Riviera:
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#497702 - 05/26/20 06:45 PM Re: MIDI command for Yamaha (Genos/Tyros) ROTARY SPEED [Re: jimlaing]
jimlaing Offline
Member

Registered: 09/24/02
Posts: 581
Loc: Raleigh, NC
Hi - I have written to Yamaha via "Support" and wrote it up as a feature request. I also described this idea/request in detail to a (I think) US-based Tech Support person at Yamaha. Does anyone know of anything else I should do? A certain email address to write to? Or a thread on this or some other Forum, that Yamaha is known to look at?

I didn't try sending the SysEx commands, since my controller can't do that anyway, I suspect sending them would work fine, for a controller that can send them. I could try my old Peavey PC-1600x I guess ... but my real goal is to have "Organ Rotary Slow/Fast" added to the MIDI External Controller list of >100 functions they support.

Thanks all!
Jim
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Genos / Tyros5 / HK Lucas Nano 600 / FTB Maxx 40a / EV ZX1A / Rock'n'Roller cart / Hauptwerk virtual pipe organ / misc other audio & music toys

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#497711 - 05/26/20 09:53 PM Re: MIDI command for Yamaha (Genos/Tyros) ROTARY SPEED [Re: jimlaing]
salsaman Offline
Member

Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 175
Loc: Port Angeles, WA., USA
Is there any chance that one of those 100 choices for controller assignment might be the rotary on/off switch? Maybe named something not so obvious? I would think that the command you are wanting to send would be on the top of the list for cc control. A very obvious and useful command that most keyboardists would constantly use.
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#497717 - 05/27/20 12:21 AM Re: MIDI command for Yamaha (Genos/Tyros) ROTARY SPEED [Re: salsaman]
Torch Offline
Member

Registered: 12/17/12
Posts: 770
The Peavey 1600x will certainly handle those hexadecimal numbers. I still have mine. Too big, but it would make a great controller for drawbar organ modules/plugins.

The manual does say the rotary speed can't be controlled by MIDI.


Attachments
Rotary3.JPG


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#497720 - 05/27/20 01:15 AM Re: MIDI command for Yamaha (Genos/Tyros) ROTARY SPEED [Re: jimlaing]
abacus Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5392
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Originally Posted By jimlaing
Hi - I have written to Yamaha via "Support" and wrote it up as a feature request. I also described this idea/request in detail to a (I think) US-based Tech Support person at Yamaha. Does anyone know of anything else I should do? A certain email address to write to? Or a thread on this or some other Forum, that Yamaha is known to look at?

I didn't try sending the SysEx commands, since my controller can't do that anyway, I suspect sending them would work fine, for a controller that can send them. I could try my old Peavey PC-1600x I guess ... but my real goal is to have "Organ Rotary Slow/Fast" added to the MIDI External Controller list of >100 functions they support.

Thanks all!
Jim


Yamaha UK/Europe as Yamaha US has no interest in arrangers so unlikely to pass anything on. (Most content and features for Yamaha arrangers are done in the UK & Germany)
Modifications, Work arounds and multi keyboard setups are quite common in the UK & Germany (For some reason only the US players seem to moan about the weight and setup) so any forum there will probably help as well.

Bill
_________________________
English Riviera:
Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).

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#497758 - 05/27/20 01:22 PM Re: MIDI command for Yamaha (Genos/Tyros) ROTARY SPEED [Re: jimlaing]
jimlaing Offline
Member

Registered: 09/24/02
Posts: 581
Loc: Raleigh, NC
Hi - to "Salsaman", I looked carefully through the 100+ items on the list for MIDI External Controller; I didn't see any that looked at all like Rotary SP or Organ Rotary slow/fast. So, it appears that it's not on the list.

This is on the list for "local" controls (assignable buttons / foot switches). And the MIDI SysEx command do exist and work, but my MIDI controller can't send those.

Thanks for all the ideas/suggestions/comments/discussions!

Jim
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