Hi

Has anyone heard any rumours of replacement models for pa1000 or pa4x for september 2020? JEREMY SEE seems to be giving a hint on youtube

Earlier this year I read on this Forum that Korg had been working on the Pa5X and it probably would have been released this year if there was a NAMM, no pandemic, etc.

Assuming the pandemic is better-controlled by early 2021, that's when I would expect the next wave of new releases from all the manufacturers. Just speculation-- I'm not an insider, dealer, or distributor.

I think the longer Korg take the better...

With Yamaha having streaked ahead in certain regards, Korg’s hardware is looking very long in the tooth these days. The Genos stepped up to the plate with 256 note polyphony, 28 insert effects (yikes!) and an 8 part Chord Sequencer, heck, even a low-mid price SX700 blows Korg’s effects architecture away.

Not to mention how convoluted Korg’s OS has got, struggling to deal with instant access to styles and setups on removable mediums and its glacial sample load times.

I think perhaps it is time to ditch the decades old Triton architecture and base the Korg arranger line on something a bit more 21st century... like the Kronos. That would give the arranger access to a far more modern effects architecture, sample loading architecture and support system, and access to modeling synthesis for better Hammond simulation, etc..

Korg have milked the Triton for long enough. Let’s hope they don’t rush out another more of the same model soon, take their time and finally bring out something truly new. That’s a big gauntlet Yamaha threw down, and the old architecture just isn’t capable of answering, IMHO...

Although the GENOS might be better in some aspects nothing is better then a KORG PA4X for what you pay at this particular time, the PA4X is so programmable that to learn all this that it has fully, would take you many decades for most keyboard players, I had the KRONOS 1st Edition and sold it, sounded too digital to me and just because a new keyboard comes out that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be better, if I can do my job now, I still have a TRITON Extreme and of my favorites the M3 and a whole gob of Triton racks they are classics to hold onto for my taste.

I totally agree. Something based on the Kronos would be a much more competitive product.

sound per sound to my taste GENOS blows away PAX4

I traded my t4 for a Genos and thought it sounded very thin...I took it back and purchased a korg pa4x... I think the Pa4x has a fuller sound...

I totally believe that "Korg" will supply us with some "unthinkable and unsuspecting surprises" ahead. Exciting times ahaead......

I simply meant that Korg should use the underlying CPU and effects and data architecture of the Kronos. The samples and the underlying voice architecture could still be ported over, there might not be any radical sonic difference, but it’s obvious that, if Korg COULD squeeze more insert effects out of the existing hardware, they would have long ago. They trail even a lowly BK-9 for insert effects capability...

Bottom line, for all its issues, the Kronos IS the top engine that Korg currently have. Just like the Triton powered their top WS’s and got leveraged to power their arrangers, it’s time for Korg to move on to their current WS engine for the power to run a better arranger.

I know it sounds like maybe a small issue, but insert effects make a HUGE difference to ease of use, especially when you don’t have enough of them to let you use the FULL programmed sound for not only all your keyboard parts, but the style ones too. Trying to work out which ones you can do without, which ones you got to have when other arrangers allow you to use at least one on every part playing or stack them has got to be frustrating as hell!

The GENOS is WAAAAAYYYYY overpriced compared to the PA4X....That's a $1500 guitar you can buy...They did the same damn thing with their TYROS Series, delivered it at too high a pricepoint...

Besides, the PA4X will do anything you need in studio or onstage. If you can't make good music on a PA4X, sell the board & take up yoga

Yamaha can kick rocks on their TOTL

I saw that video months ago...Was gonna post a link, but he gave no indication he really had any inside info...Obviously, nothing has happened since that video and it is almost a year later...

Dont new keyboards come out in september?

Korg's TOTL cycle was every four years. i30 in 1999, Pa1x in 2003, Pa2x in 2007, Pa3x in 2011, Pa4x in 2015. So here we are five years on, but still no new board from them. Either they've been hindered by the pandemic, or have tended to focus on lower models, EK-50, new i3 etc., or they've got something a bit special up their sleeve. As always, only time will tell.

I doubt they will do what roland did...focus on cheap keyboards only.. i think the buttons of future models will look like ek50

I DID the oposit/ I sold my PAX4 and bougt the GENOS 'wow a big difference . the Genos to my eares sound much better

STEVE THE PAX4 is a good key , but i feel that every cent that the GENOS cost more worth it. and i had both of theme but decided to sell my PAX4

Korg might not name the next one pa5x but go with a new name... and maybe the pa1000 will become pa1100

I am not going to be one of those people that says the PA4x is perfect and never needs replacing, because I am always up for change and new innovation... but just last week I purchased a 4X, as really, in the current climate, who knows when Korg will be releasing a new model...

I also took the plunge 2 months ago and purchased a PSR SX900...

I still own my arsenal of Roland keyboards and always will - they are something special and do their own thing that there is simply no replacement for - in my opinion..

However, some of you may or may not know I am big on synth, analogue,Trance, techno, EDM music and I prefer an arranger over a synth because I like to actually play live and jam freestyle to styles and flip through registrations and different chord sequences on the fly... which takes far more time to setup on a synth (ive tried them all)

The PSR SX900 is a massive improvement over the previous PSR line - in every way... And I am certain that for modern EDM / trance / synth genre, it compares pretty much exacto to the Genos.. the OS is the same, the sounds from the synth section / pads / synth basses / EDM dance drum kits are the same etc... you can nit pick about sliders, 76 keys, after touch, SA2, revo drums etc all you want...

The OS of the Yamaha is still very lacking in functionality in many ways that send it back to the stone age...

In style creator - why is it that some style parts need to be erased before being able to "edit" them??...

The mixer doesn't allow you to change the octave or tuning of style / song part etc... I can go on but these are very BASIC things that other keyboards have been able to do for years - Roland Make up tools go wayyy above and beyond...

Also - Yamaha does great at introducing new drum kits (usually 5 or so per new TOTL keyboard) at a time but they still leave the old ancient legacy kits the same. for example. the analogue T8 and T9 kits are a joke. they sound so plastic and shallow and muddy... same for the standard kit 1 and 2, the power kit 1 and 2 and so on. the PSR hasn't got the revo drums so I really cant speak for them, but overall the sound clarity is still not there.. whereas in the Korg or Roland - ALL drum kits are good enough and have the same quality across the board.

Last night I was flicking through all the legacy XG sounds in the PA4x and they destroy most of their equivalent comparisons on the Yamaha PSR and previous Tyros keyboards I have played/owned... And that's Korg doing Yamaha's XG sounds better than Yamaha themselves, go figure??

In my opinion a Korg PA 500 still has more crisp sharper punchier sound than the Yamaha overall... its so frustrating. We talk about how Korg are still using the old Triton engine in their TOTL arranger as a negative, but really its still strong in a lot of ways... If the current PA4x had a new refreshed OS with the same triton sound engine - everyone would love it... and the same goes for the BK9 from Roland.. give the G70 OS to the BK9 - everyone would love it... A lot of what steers people towards certain keyboards is the OS and ease of use... I get it that Korg can be complicated and Yamaha is a big safety net in comparison... Yamaha has been designed to make it as easy as possible for someone jump on and play straight away without too much thought process to understand it, where Korg relies on a more serious learning curve.

Back to sound - Yamaha has some amazing acoustic sounds - all bread and butter sounds are top notch no doubt... but when it comes to pads, basses, warm electric pianos, strings, choirs, drum sounds, they really LACK low end deepness and WARMTH... the lower octaves are hollow and need a lot of EQ'ing which 'can' get you a better result - but why should it be that way? Why cant they get it right from the start - its a $6,000.00 instrument that in their eyes which is designed and marketed to be right straight of the box??

Yamaha arrangers are still using the AWM 1 engine... not even the engine from the MOTIF ES/XS/XF line which was AWM2? Sure there are samples in the yamaha taken directly from the Motif AWM2 Engine BUT they have been stripped and thinned out that they have lost their low end warmth - and I have compared them side by side to a Motif XS/XF...

One thing I have always noticed about Yamaha... if its the ONLY keyboard you play, you kinda 'get used' to the sound and dont realise that there is an overall 'lack' of 'something' until you sit it side-by-side with a Korg or a Roland and start comparing - it instantly becomes a very shocking night and day difference...

Though I can still see why a lot of folks love yamaha - and so do I in some ways, BUT although Yamaha has released a fresh new look to their OS - the sound engine is STILL ancient and dates back to maybe even before the Triton timeline...

One more thing regarding the amount of insert effects - 28 Insert effects on the Genos does blow the competition out of the water as a stat on the brochure.. but lets be honest - MOST of Yamahas voices are already so processed in effects there really isn't much to be added outside the usual Reverb / Chorus etc... so who is really needing and applying THAT many effects onto their voices in a Yamaha arranger? and again this goes back to the user and the demographic that the Genos and PSR's are marketed towards - its still a player who doesn't really want to deep dive and spend a lot of time tweaking so its kind of an oxymoron...

I have gone back and edited this post 4 times now - I think that's enough I hope I haven't offended anyone, but really am trying to be as subjective and honest as possible...

Nick
Far from being offended,I think your post is very well written and informative. I don't posses the technical knowledge,but have a decent ear and 50 plus years with keyboards of all makes. I couldn't help but think of my Audya 76,and the superior sound,all around,compared to my other instruments. I think that even though there have been newer features introduced,the basic sound has diminished,even on my SD40. Newer is not always better for old boys,like myself, that don't need them.

Bernie

Nick thank you for the best explanation of korg vs yamaha ive seen on this board so far

It's true that you lose your objectiveness when getting used to the sounds you always play, and you have to readjust your own perception once in a while by pausing and then comparing with other manufacturers again, and maybe with a real symphonic orchestra for judging strings for example.
Sometimes I still think - are the Seattle strings of my MODX really better than the old SRX 04 Roland strings? Doubts remain...

You cannot use more than 12 inserts for the arranger engine. One insert for each of the 8 style parts + one insert for each of the 4 left/right hand parts. Multi pads, with the builtin firmware, incredibly can NOT be effected.

The remaining 16 inserts are usable on the second midi port (the one for midi file playback, which generally speaking anyway do NOT use those 16 Yamaha specific inserts that can be exploited through convoluted sysexes only).

12 inserts are still a good number (probably more than any HW competition) and more than enough (most builtin styles do not use all the 12 possible inserts!). But nonetheless nowhere close to the 28 listed on the spec.

Slice it any way you want, when Korg only gives you ONE insert for all four keyboard Parts and four for the style engine, you got to cut corners...

When you audition keyboard sounds, they come up with their associated insert on the main keyboard part, but use the same sound on the lower, or the other uppers, totally different sound.

Ideally, you want one for every part, at the very least two or three for the keyboard parts. This is IMHO the main weakness in Korg’s, the hoops you have to go through when deciding what sounds you want to play, and figuring out which ones you can do without the insert.

And I am utterly convinced that if Korg couldn’t get the hardware to do it by now, it can’t be done... Not with this generation of hardware.

I haven’t really gone on much about some of the other Genos next gen stuff, but things like the round robin drum kits, the Ensemble thingy where it will split chords out into their component parts so a brass section sound divides itself when going from tutti to divisi, and whatever that sorcery it’s doing to get the pedal steel to bend notes INSIDE the chord (amazing!), those are things players of our age can really use.

I admit the NEXT stuff on the PA4X is also quite new for arranger players, but honestly, if you’re not really into EDM and hardcore dance styles, it’s of limited value... Here’s hoping Korg take a look at who actually play arrangers rather than who they would LIKE to play arrangers (no offense to the few who do dig EDM, LOL), and maybe take a crack at some of Yamaha’s new features. I’d kill for the eight part Chord Sequencer alone!

But stuck back here on my poor abandoned Roland, I can only look on at these innovations with sadness and envy! How close Roland came, only to stumble at the finish line... 🍌😂

This is an interesting dilemma.

As a matter of fact the majority of current arrangers buyers are senior people (look for example on YouTube at who are attending Yamaha arranger demo events). Even worse (see later), they are the ONLY buyers of top of the line arrangers (those with the highest profit margins).

So to please them you should deliver content that was popular when they were young (you keep your imprinting for the whole life).

On the other hand this profitable source of income (you can easily harvest serving the old and tested product --> no R&D costs) will not last for much longer (limits of human life).

So, understandably, the manufacturers try to please the younger generations in order to carry their business into the (distant) future. Here explained the EDM content (new generations are unlikely to enjoy Jazz and Big Band & Oldies genres that are so overly represented in arrangers).

But in doing so you risk to alienate your current buyers and major source of income (those that today shell out a respectable 3/4 K€ for a keyboard that admittedly does NOT use cutting edge tech and is not decisively different from the previous model).
After all they could simply keep "forever" their current gear, given that features-wise it is probably heavily underused and the limiting factor is by far the player.

Thing is, the weapon of choice to do most contemporary music is the synth workstation, the Fantom’s, the Montage’s and the MODX’s, along with loop software like Ableton Live and controller boxes.

I know Korg must have sunk a fortune in R&D into NEXT OS, but I honestly think that their money might have been better spent on things like Yamaha’s Ensemble mode and things like that. Now there ARE a couple of things buried in NEXT that are quite useful to the older player, there’s the touch screen sort of ‘breakdown’ thing that allows you to lower or mute parts within a style very quickly, and the thing that can add swing to simple 8-beat styles, but they aren’t really presented or promoted in a way easily grasped by older players.

It’s a shame that musically useful things like this don’t really get their own section or get a UI that presents them in more familiar ways... Most of us remember the days when arrangers and drum machines had a ‘swing’ knob! And several arrangers in the past (G1000 comes to mind) had buttons for gradually stripping a style down from full to drum and bass only, and that’s some stuff us old farts can REALLY use without having to jump through the weird NEXT interface.

I honestly have a feeling the younger generation is never going to embrace arrangers, they just aren’t really optimized for the ‘clip’ triggering and looping thing they tend to do, and they certainly aren’t when they come out of the box loaded with music categories like Ballroom and Oldies!

I’ve long held that an arranger loaded with ONLY hi tech contemporary styles and sounds might sell quite well, but there hasn’t really been one of those since the old Casio Rapman thing back in the early 90’s. Korg’s problem is that they won’t commit. In the back of their minds, they probably know what an uphill battle that would be, and how they might alienate the existing base.

Come on, Korg! Just give us older players stuff we can use! What percentage of your base plays EDM..?!

Was looking forward to the Karma feature in the 1000. All I can say, it is tough to figure out and pretty much useless to me at this time. Maybe I'll find the tricks for use.

Karma? It's only existed in software form for some time now. You can get supplemental software for any of the Korg or Yamaha workstations, up to the Motif XF. When Yamaha introduced the Montage they changed the architecture enough that Stephen Kay has so far not released a compatible version for that board. Supposedly the Yamaha versions of Karma software have more features than the Korg versions. Mr. Kay was part of the arranger development team at Korg; I've been curious since it's debut about how close Karma gets to arranger functionality. Maybe someday I'll take the plunge with a compatible keyboard, and find out!

The pa1000 was released 2 years after the pa4x...
There is no reason why korg would change this approach..

The pa1000 is now 3 years old. Yamaha released s970,s975 and sx900 since

And, bottom line, there’s always this burning desire for whatever is next and whatever is latest, mostly from people that don’t utilize 25% of the arranger they currently have. 🤔

The truth is, what most of us actually want is new CONTENT! New styles, new sounds. That usually gets the job done LOL

It seems an awfully expensive way to get them, buying an entire arranger…

Ill Give you my 2 cents as to WHY I believe Korg arrangers are not used commonly for EDM (in comparison to Yamaha Arrangers)... and really - the demographic of youtube videos also show this...

Firstly - I am 36 years old - probably one of the youngest on this forum and have been for a while. I grew up in the 90s, partied in the 2000s all the way up to the last 5 years... I went to many Trance / techno concerts, raves, head banging night clubs etc. I grew up listening to music from different Trance artists such as Tiesto, Armin Van Buuren, Paul Van Dyk, etc.. For some reason now this style of music along with a lot of other dance / house music has been labelled as "EDM"...

I was trained in classical piano and my interest in playing arranger keyboards has always been around jamming and reproducing the above styles of music for my own leisure as well as a few partys etc.

In the last 15 years I have owned approx 20+ keyboards (mid to top arrangers and synths)

I have always been drawn to Yamaha keyboards the most and probably because, like many others I am a sucker for their marketing...

With a Yamaha Tyros / PSR / Genos in front of you - you are presented with almost an unlimited amount of styles which match those modern genres of music. Not to mention the amount of third party ones that are out there...

There are stacks of built in multi pads that also suit the genre which include synth arpeggios, pumping pads / synths, 4/4 house drum loops etc...

You now also get dedicated filter and cut off knobs which are very handy...

The required synth leads, synth basses, pads samples needed are all there.. so many sounds that are required for those styles of music are re produced so accurately on current Yamaha keyboards...
so really - everything is covered... right??.... wrong...

In my opinion where Yamaha arrangers fall short is that the overall sound lacks "guts" and "punch"... its a "soft" sound that just cant be "fixed" in anyway. It may work for other genres such as acoustic, easy listening unplugged type music, but for EDM its not good enough no matter how you look at it - all I can assume is that the samples them selves are compressed and stripped of their quality to shave off the amount of data and computing power required in PSR and Tyros/Genos keyboards... and all this becomes very much more evident when you turn off the insert effect and also route the sound through a decent PA system or monitoring speakers/headphones (not the speakers that come with the keyboards).

Where Yamaha falls short as above - Korg shines. overall it has that punch, that clarity, that overall "oomf" that is required in the sound, BUT... sadly it does lack the overall variety of content that you get in the yamaha for EDM... The PA4X doesn't have enough of the modernly used samples such as Hooks, stabs, plucks, leads, pumping pads etc- where yamaha have nailed it.

So unfortunately in my eyes and ears - there still isn't that perfect balance FOR EDM music in today's arranger keyboards YET but I do feel they are getting closer and closer as new models come out. They currently both offer something that the other brand doesn't...

In the voice of sarah conner terminator 2. 2 SEPTEMBER 2020 CAME OUT WENT. KORG DIDNT RELEASE A NEW MACHINE.. THE PA4X STILL REIGNED. THE PA1000 WAS STILL MADE BY THE MACHINES.

Still don’t get the desire to proclaim who ‘reigns’...

Over what?!

There’s basically ONE thing that each and every arranger brand does better than all the rest. Always has been, always will be. Nobody ‘reigns’...

Just a bunch of tribes occupying largely the same ground, with small areas exclusive to them.

When push comes to shove, I’ve heard horrible music from all of them! Apparently, ‘reigning’ doesn’t help if you can’t play well. And if you play well, what you play isn’t much of an impediment! 🤔🥃🤩

it so true... Diki you say there's basically "ONE" thing each brand does better but I would say more - its very diverse.

The saving grace for arrangers now is they can finally load in samples so you are not confined to the existing sounds they come with... huge bonus for me!

They are only 35 or so years late to the party then. (You could add more voices (Sampled) to Yamaha Organs (And plenty of other organ manufactures) in the mid-80s)

Bill

Which Yamaha organs are you referring to? The Electones I know from those times didn‘t have any sampled voices except maybe some drum sounds at all.

I believe it was the HS series where you could purchase plug-in cartridges that contained the sampled voices. (And could also be used on later instruments) NOTE: from memory the voices remained on the cartridge and the voices disappeared if the cartridge was removed. (It was the start of the AWM era for Yamaha that is still used in all their latest instruments, pro instruments used AWM2, both of which have been updated over time)
The 80s was when sampling started to be used by virtually all manufactures, with the early versions being mainly 8 bit samples. (Multi layered samples also came in to being in the late 80s)

Bill

Yes, I just looked it up and the HS series started using AWM samples in 1987 I hadn't realized they were before the SY77 which used AWM along with AFM in 1989


1987 — HS/HX series
Electones became more digital here. It used more integrated circuit technology to make components smaller, and hence allowed for a sleeker design. The HX/HS series was the first to use AWM (Advance Wave Memory) "sampling" technology for both voices and rhythms, and also featured 16-operator FM voices. AWM Voice expansion is also possible via sound packs.


I still have an SY77 with that same sound engine.

Yeah, maybe I should have said ‘at LEAST one thing’ LOL. But who’s counting?!

My point basically was that ALL of them got something the others don’t do well or not at all. Until there’s one that gets it ALL right (will never happen!) there’s not much point in getting worked up about ‘better’ or ‘best’... that only works if we all want exactly the same thing. And that’s not a world I want to live in! 😂

Hi Diki, long time. I had a Pa4x and a Sx900, I sold the Pa4x because I did not want to get caught up in the what’s better. I even made a wood stand, trying to keep this mind busy.

My thoughts: If I marry the keyboard that I have and look no further, I am OK. (for a while)(smile) All the rest is just stuff. September 11th I will be 89, now that’s keeping me busy.

Nice to see you back Diki, John C.

I agree with you Nick G. I said it in an earlier post the Yamaha just sounds thin to me no matter what you do.. The Korg has a fuller sound and that is the reason I got rid of the Genos... Ron

Ron, I agree with you about Yamaha having the thinner sound. My needs are not for playing out, but for home use; I like a thinner richer sound for my home.

If I were to play out again, I would have another Pa4x.
John C.

I agree with this. In amongst the variety & quantity of EDM / Dance & Disco type styles on Yamaha's boards, it doesn't make up the fact that they sound artificial to me, and I still think it's mainly in the drums though I think the blandness of only having 4 bar'd styles, bass line seem basic & repetitive compared to Korg & Ketron. Even with how much Yamaha have improved in the drums, to my ears they still sound unrealistic, unnatural & plastic sounding when comparing them to others. I didn't really notice this as much until I started to own and use more than one brand. The Yamaha's do have some fantastic sounds and I think that's where Yamaha's strength has always been.

You may have to squash the PA80 in there somewhere as I went from the i30, to the PA80 then PA1x.

Ah yes, I'd forgotten the Pa80. When did that appear? I remember thinking that the Pa80 looked toy-ish after the pro look of the i30. Still got my i30, btw.

You need a certain volume of sales to maintain a set schedule for new models. And Korg rather upset that schedule with the NEXT OS which could have legitimately been simply a new model (it’s amazing how little new sound or style content arranger players are willing to accept in a new model) and no-one would be talking about an overdue schedule...

I think, were I a Korg user, I’d just be grateful Korg gave me a new arranger for free (and a bunch of really good styles as freeware)!

quiet a few fake videos of a pa5x have appeared online.

After 6 years on the 3X, I sold and moved to the 1000 (needed something new and access to styles). I miss the key bed, but this little board has so much power. And yes, Korg creating free styles is just fantastic.