...today I purchased a Yamaha PSR373 keyboard......
Now why would I do a thing like that owing a ketron SD9 and a Korg PA50sd ? for you to learn for me to know

Regards,
John Smies

Okay, I bite, John. Why would you buy a beginner model PSR ?

Bernie

To use it as a sound Module. I am using a KMA with my Sx900 for the same reason.
John C.

I always have a beginners battery keyboard, to take on vacation, to play in the backyard or on the kitchen counter. After awhile I end up giving it away to a kid, and then I get a new one.

I guess John C. is closest to the mark but allow me to digress.

First of all you have to realize we are talking about a 199 dollar keyboard here !!! See e.g. Guitar Center. Though it has all the trimmings of a fullfledged arranger obviously many corners have been cut.
A comparison with the Korg Micro Arranger springs to mind , after all as I mentioned I still have the Korg PA50 which in essence is the KMA with full length keys.

So what does a 199 dollar arranger keyboard add to my current set up with Ketron SD9 and Korg PA50sd. Basically it is all about sounds because the Style department while many ( approx. 200 on this cheap PSR) lags significantly in comparison to e.g. the KMA, which sports many good styles with four variations.
Soundwise this cheap yamaha beats the KMA and similar Korgs in quite a few areas, noticably the more percussive sounds sucha as piano, elec. piano, ac. guitars, vibraphone and even in the organ and electric guitar department. (note that the KMA is at last twice the price if not triple and has small keys).
What does it add you may well ask in comparison to the Ketron flagship the SD9.?
Not all that much but it does in some areas , in particular the electric pianos, organs and the stringpads (which by the way are excellent in the KMA). It boasts over 600 sounds , a fair number of effects (progammable) and alas only 9 Registration spots. the internal amplification of this PSR373 is superior to that of the KMA.
One minus is that it has Midi via USB so if you do want to hook it up to your major keyboard ( but why would you want to) you could purchase the Kenton MIDI to USB host convertor, but it is rather pricey.
So summing up, incredible value for money , especially if you have NO Yamaha gear in the house. Concert piano is incredible for the price, many other good sounds some of them from the earlier Tyros models, 5 octaves, fullsized keys, good amplification, lightweight ( 4,5 kilos), can be battery operated, etc.etc.
In 2010 I briefly owned a PSR3000 and in the song here in the link I used some of the el. piano sounds that you can also find in abundance in this 200 dollar keyboard !!!
https://app.box.com/s/l8r7d1tf8r9k7ma8e8i1dl2hy3bkoa0o

regards,
John

P.S. I was even luckier to get the PSR as a slightly used secondhand with full waranty for 150 euros.....go figure !!!!

I kind of miss the older, simpler days when arrangers’ soundsets were based almost entirely on the manufacturer’s workstation line. If you wanted a G1000’s sounds run by your Yamaha, you bought a Super Canvas, and they were all there. A Fanton rack module got you most of the G70/VA series. A Triton got you most of the Korg soundset.

Seems like divergence has made a big increase lately.

Mind you, you want most of the BK-9 sounds (minus the VK organ section), the Integra7 module has most of it, including the incredible articulated SuperNatural guitars.

It seems a PITA to have to lug around a whole keyboard when a module used to do the trick… 🙄🎹😎

Diki,

I entirely agree with what you are saying. At least Ketron made an effort with the SD2 and SD1000 sound modules to try and keep up with their flagship arranger sounds ( though only succeeding half way imho) but the others have left us in the lurch allright. Image Yamaha releasing a simple soundmodule containing most of the sounds to be found on either a Tyros5 , the Genos or even the cheaper SX900....I am sure many Korg, Ketron and Roland keyboard owners would go for it , if the price is right of course....I know that I would.
Still the existing KMA arranger is a great alternative , also because it can often be bought secondhand, and the cheaper yamaha PSR series like this PSR373 ( note the 7 !!!) offer a reasonable alternative.
You mention the Roland Integra,but let's not forget that is in an entirely different price range !!

regards
John

Well, it’s still got way more sounds than the BK-9, and available used for less than half the new price of the BK-9 when in production. The Fantom Rack was no cheapie either.

Let’s face it, Yamaha or Korg aren’t going to pack every sound from a $5k TOTL arranger into a few hundred dollar module. The Super Canvas that had the G1000 soundset wasn’t exactly peanuts!

Yes, a cheap module will give you a bit of the ‘flava’ of another brand, but if you want the best sounds with good quality D/A converters for the same rich sound, you ARE going to have to open your wallet a little wider.

In the end, it’s not so much the cost, it’s the convenience. A rack module (or free standing one), if it can be run totally from your main keyboard, that saves you lugging around multi-tier keyboard stands, pedals, peripherals, and stops you being buried behind a pyramid of keyboards in front of you!

IMHO, the Roland BK7-m was a breakthrough product that few really understood or appreciated, leading to no copycat products. But in its way, it was EXACTLY what you want. Not just the sounds, but the full arranger engine in a tiny compact form factor.

Sadly Roland never took the new capabilities of the BK9 (the SN guitars, the chord sequencer, the HB Hammond section and mic input etc.) and crammed it in the same form factor. That would be a serious piece of kit, worthy of running alongside any modern flagship keyboard, including synth workstations…

Another in the long line of ‘Missed it by THAT much!’ Roland gaffes. 🙄🎹

Keep in mind that when I first began using an arranger keyboard, which was about the same time John Paul Jones joined the US Navy, they cost about $350, and mine was a Samsung (don't remember the exact model) and it had 35 styles and 30 voices. Sounded damned good at the time, it had no storage at all, and every song had to started from scratch, style, voice, tempo, etc. Each style had 2 variations, and no attached voices. Everything was selected on the fly, but I managed to keep my dead time down to just a few seconds at most. (a bit of pre-planning went a long way.)

Today, my aged Yamaha S950 has more voices in a single category than my old keyboard in all categories combined, the sounds are so very realistic that no one in the audience, and a lot of enterprising musicians, would be hard pressed to tell the difference if they had their eyes closed. Much of this lies in the hands of the performer and his or her ability to bring those sounds to life. My dear, departed friend, Don Mason was an absolute master at not only the guitar voices, but also many of the brass and woodwind instruments as well.

I could easily afford to purchase the best, top end keyboard available today, but I currently have all I truly need. I have explored every aspect of the operating system, and taken advantage of all the onboard programs. This brings a very important question to mind - Why or what more would I need that would make me sound significantly better to myself or my audiences (if I were still working) as an onstage entertainer? Realistically, NOTHING! I would not be able to decrease my dead time, which is currently less than a second, if I wish. In fact, I can actually blend, seamlessly, from one song to the next. Using the onboard MFD, I can actually search for one song, while performing another and select it with a single push of a button.

Today's keyboards are no longer manufactured from case hardened steel. Consequently, they are less than half the weight, yet just as strong, or stronger than their heavy, bulky predecessors, thereby making them easier to transport, which is a great feature. I clearly remember my old Roland 800, which if I recall correctly, tipped the scales at 52 pounds. It brutal just to get in on the X-stand. Back then, a lightweight amp weighed about the same as the keyboard.

Some of the new sound modules really sound great, however, I really do not see the need for one. Especially when you consider that the vast majority of today's arranger keyboards have all those sounds, and onboard software that has the ability to tune them with a huge array of effects. This provides you instant access to those tweaked and tuned voices with a single touch of a button or two, plus you don't have the hassles of connecting up another piece of equipment that must be interfaced with the overall system on order to play.

Maybe I'm a bit old fashioned, but I have always felt the KISS aspect was the best way of performing music comes into play here. I learned a lot from another, departed old friend, by the name of Lefty Kreh. He was the most famous fly angler in the entire world, and published more than 100 books during his lengthy career as an outdoor writer. When I asked him to edit my first outdoor article, which was published in Outdoor Life, it contained 8,000 words. He took one look at it and said "Hell, you didn't tell me you were writing a book." He went through the manuscript with a red pen, then said: "The secret to success is to use the least amount of words, with the lease amount of syllables to get the point across. This applies to everything in life." He later said, "You wouldn't replace an enter wheel on your car to fix a flat tire." He was among the most intelligent people I every knew in my 81 years on this side of the ground.

Good luck,

Gary

I’m often tempted to get an entry-level arranger as something refreshing, to focus more on the fun, creativity; basically I have too many instruments and computers for such limited space; I’ve got only a sofa for myself, so I have to walk 3.5 hours a day outside just to get enough space for my thoughts :-) well, it’s not really connected, but still…

But I feel that my manner of playing the PSR it still rather intense and doesn’t seem to become more restrained; buying a keyboard from me would be like buying a car which was used as a taxi :-) . Perhaps I get tired of that intensity rather quickly myself. Mostly I prefer to play my guitar, although I don’t feel confident while doing that.

Playing just some piano music now feels to me as rather intense as well. I consider piano as a very effective instrument which is too easy to overuse.

Perhaps, an entry level instrument can be a good balance.

There’s quite a strong competition in this area between Casio and Yamaha, so they both have to offer quite a lot for this price.

Well, people buy and sell things today rather easily, so it’s not like a big commitment. I’m just too lazy to do it; so far it is like “you are with me forever”, which could be considered as hoarding.

Gary, quite an interesting stuff. Indeed, books are “the more the better”, sometimes “words for the sake of words”, which is not always good for other genres.

I tried to find something about Samsung making arrangers in the past, so far no luck. But, I guess, it’s not the point.

Certainly, some upgrades are not justified. There’s also something which we lose with each change.

Even when it comes to songwriting, the truth is that any of existing arranger keyboards can only produce sound good enough for a demo recording. If you are lucky to sell a song to a big artist, the final track will be done with completely different means. It also seems that the most crucial part of a song today is actually lyrics, which doesn’t involve any equipment at all (just some craziness :-) ).

And entertainers rely more on their singing abilities. After all, it is quite a subtle area…

Well, funny you should say that, I recently purchased a Medeli AKX10 for that very reason and I must say I really don't like the sound of the instrument after seeing a lot of favourable reviews and comments about it, I personally think it sounds horrible. I think that if I am ever to buy a lower end keyboard again it will have to be by one of big boys as I had never heard of Medeli before this! Shame because it actually does look lovely.

Samsung only made that one model that I know of, and just for a few months, then went back to stuff that sold well for them, microwave ovens, etc...

And, as an entertainer, I always relied heavily on my vocal ability. I know a few guys that cannot sing, and they didn't make enough money as an entertainer to pay their expenses. Most, eventually, hired a drop-dead gorgeous female vocalist that could really dazzle the crowd, not only her appearance, but also her vocal talents. At that point, they began to make a good living as a duo.

All the best,

Gary

The thing is, if you already have a more complex, more expensive arranger, what benefit does a simpler model offer?

Sounds? No… you’ve already got better. Features? No… you have better. Simplicity? No… eschew most of the more advanced features of what you have, turn it on and just play, forget about registrations or multipads or chord sequencers, dial up a style, maybe hit the One Touch preset sounds, what could be simpler?

The trick is, get into ‘play mode’ rather than ‘produce mode’ and the most complex TOTL arranger is no more difficult to play than the simplest. I think if you are not enjoying your main arranger, you are in ‘produce mode’ too much. You have to learn to not want to leverage every last thing it can do ALL the time!

Sure, comes time to prepare for a gig or a performance, that’s the time to dig down deep, and learn to extract the maximum your arranger can do. But honestly, if you are thinking of going to a simple cheap model if you already have something a lot better because you think life will be ‘simpler’, I think simple is a function of how you use the keyboard, not its innate ability.

Having an arranger that can be both simple and complex gives you options. But don’t think you have to buy simplicity… You already have it! 🎹😎

I agree, Diki.

Gary

Sometimes we do simple things just to keep us busy.

I have enjoyed working with my KMA and the Sx900 keyboards; I would do it all over again. No perfection, just enjoyment.

John Smies, thank you, John C.

Hi Diki,

With all due respect but entirely disagree with the part of your view expressed in the quote here above.
First of all about any additional merit of a cheapo arranger keyboard like this simplistic PSR373 over the major top arrangers. Well you may find this hard to believe but e.g. the electric pianos such as DX7 etc. actuallly sound better in this cheapo than what they do in the Ketron SD9. For those sounds alone it would be worth the 150 bucks to me, but there is a lot more. Even the nylon string guitar in this cheap yamaha at least emulates if not beats the ones in the Ketron SD9.
Stringwise, and I am referring to the lush stringpads ( synthstrings etc.) that e.g. you will find in the Korgs and definitely in the old Korg PA50 ( hence also in John C.'s KMA) I venture to say that once again Ketron here did a rather crummy job. The Korg stringpads are far superior and the stringpad ( slowstrings) in the PSR373 once again comes close to beating the similar pads in the Ketron SD9....

About forgetting your Registrations etc.etc. "just turn the darn thing on and play ", you could not be further from the truth imho.
True , these days arrangers are fed ( or rather overfed) with preset Regisrations ( read Songbook, songlist, etc) but the true challenge is of course to utlize the more expensive arrangers in two effective ways:
1 By tweaking sounds, styles, pads, etc. to form an ideal set up for one or more songs, to be saved in a Registration.
2 To ARRANGE, hence its name and not be contented to just play a popsongs with the factory song settings, often pretty poor.
Unless of course you only want to mimmick the original song with the factory settings..Note that here is a big difference between folks who gig a lot, and those (like me) who really ever perform in public but want to record at home and present their songs in arrangements often differing to the original arrangment of a song. I mean what is the use (unless gigging) of me performing say Roy Orbinson's Pretty Woman with an arrangement identical to his ?
Anyway it is nice to see some of the old flock returning here as I was sorry to see so many leave to the Facebook group, no disrespect to the late Don Mason whom I admired greatly both as a person and as a musician.
the Facebook group meanwhile boasts 2700 members, where on earth did these come from, but the whole thing is not coherent to my mind and does not really feel like the family SZ once was and hopefully will become again.

regards
John

When all's said and done, we all have different likes and needs. If it works for you John, that's all that matters

Kind regards,

Russ

Hi Danny,

Forgot to reply to your entry here. I think the Medeli stuff is crap in general. It cannot be compared to even the cheapest Yamaha keyboard.
In general reply to queries and answers in this thread I would like to offer the following link. I believe the language is Indonesian so forget about that, but it entails a pretty comprehensive survey of the PSR373 sounds. Skip the first five minutes of chatter and listen to 5.00 -12.00 for starters.Perhaps you will understand my earlier comments in particular about the electric pianos and ac. guitars.
At 13.20 there is a pretty good sax sound imho. Of course there are many more is this video but it is a bit of a long session...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECUPRtReskI

regards
John

It surely is a rational thought that an advanced arranger covers pretty much everything that a simple one does. I also felt that I couldn't afford to buy anything less than SX900 once I got the chance. The styles are so rich, I enjoy the acoustic drums, they are so deep, I can use new sounds for playing or any older sounds from a "legacy" folder, the 128 voices polyphony allows to play multiple piano notes with strings as a layer, with an accompaniment and also add extra tremolo strings to my left hand controlled with an expression pedal... something I can never do with Casio or PSR-E series...

Is there nice oboe on those keyboards? I don't think so. Does their electric guitar sounds realistic? I doubt that... And you know how I like to use my expression pedal as a pitch bend. So me having SX900 is totally reasonable... At some point I feel myself as a Russian oligarch who lives in a big mansion and speaks about modesty. He would never give up any of his possessions, yet thinking a lot of ascetism. However, the fact that he can't give it up doesn't mean that his thoughts are wrong.

I was at McDonalds today, only for a moment. Well, to be specific, had to use a restroom. Surprisingly enough, there was some piano music playing through their speaker system. It was not sophisticated, something light, even the piano samples were not of a high quality, like some average keyboard. Just piano, no backing. But I thought to myself that it felt just right. Yes, you can change these samples to Steinway Piano, you can add an orchestra to it, and then it would sound just heavy.

These days I'm working on some songs with my SX900. Some part of me tells me "well, you should make videos of it, you haven't been posting anything for a while". Another part of me tells me "this is heavy... you've got enough of heaviness... it's not innovative... just get some Casio and play something crazy!"...

Yes, I can immitate some Casio with my SX900. Revoice the styles, and I can actually download any sounds into this arranger. But... that would be actually pretentious.

As I was saying earlier (or was about to say), I started to have these thoughts about 5 years ago. Perhaps, the problem is that even a Russian oligarch can't know for sure if his possessions are secured. He may fear that loosing something he will lose it all. And I'm thinking "how can I not get better EP sounds when what I have now is so obsolete?" or "how can I live without decent oboe and electric guitar sounds?".

But as opposed to those arguments I have "remember the song you composed with Casio CTK-511? When was the last time you were composing like that?" or "that piano tune at McDonalds didn't have any oboes or guitars at all and you liked it anyway".

So I will add PSR-E463 to my PSR-SX900 and that won't be pretentious, that will be about modesty. I will have no extra room at all, and that will be about freedom. Like that oligarch adding Hyundai Solaris to his Rolls-Royce...

You know, it doesn't look that obvious to me at all...

My word Sergey that was a highly reflective almost philosophical answer to the contents of this thread. Thank you, I will reply in detail in a personal email.

Let it be known once more that the premise of this thread was a simple one:
Would/ should you if you had a little money to spare ( 200 dollars), while in the possession of one or more (arranger) keyboards but nothing from the Yamaha brand, consider the purchase of the PSR373 or similar keyboard , like I did ?

Finally, in a new thread I have just recorded a small improvisation using both grand pianos from the cheapo yamaha and from the SD9:
http://www.synthzone.com/forum/ubbthread...und_#Post504529

regards
John

Hi John, thank you for your comment

I have to agree that after watching that video it most certainly sounds better than the Medeli.

The only thing the Medeli really has going for it is its very pretty looks and very good features and the touch screen is lovely, but I think that's where it ends. The styles are just so uninspiring & bland or poorly programmed in some cases, some are also ripped off from past Yamaha or Korg keyboards. The drums sound like those of the Yamaha PSR620 from back in the day as do the sounds.

The thing is, John, I think you misread my post. At no time did I suggest that if you want to play a particular song, you dial up the preset registration/Songbook entry and play what the factory has spoon-fed you. In fact, the very opposite. Turn it on and just PLAY.

You have to go through a bunch of other steps before the machine starts telling you what to do. To be honest, when I’m in ’mess around mode’, I don’t even start with a song in mind. Pick a style, pick a lead sound, maybe a LH pad or comp, or the full piano mode, hit play, start to mess around with changes, and see what comes to mind.

Nothing simpler! Playing for the sheer joy of playing. That’s the strength of arrangers. Your on call rhythm section, no matter what whacked out thing you feel like doing. They never complain, they never tell you they’re tired of playing the same four bars over and over, they never quit for a coffee break! 😂

So no, John, I wasn’t suggesting for one minute that you turn on the arranger and let it dictate to you what you should play or sound like. Sorry if you got that impression.

In reference to the sounds, yes, I must admit, I’ve never really been a huge fan of Ketron’s basic soundset, in fact, I’m not a fan of the whole audio loop style thing. Talk about the machine telling you how you should sound! But in fairness, it rather sounds like you are choosing to go the cheap secondary arranger or sound module route to simply fill in glaring holes in Ketron’s basic sound that owners of the brands that you want to use don’t have themselves.

So, as general advice, my basic premise stands. Unless you chose unwisely, most modern MOTL & TOTL arrangers stand by themselves pretty well. I certainly don’t have any particular sound envy with my decade old BK-9! Yes, there’s a few OS features that would be nice to have, but they are all on arrangers considerably more expensive than the one I have. So, for me and to be honest, I would think Yamaha and Korg users, there’s little to be gained adding another keyboard to the live rig.

At home, in the studio, well… pretty much ALL arrangers fall quite short compared to the best software instruments or hardware synths (for synth sounds) and gigabyte sized VSTi’s for things like orchestral libraries, drum and percussion libraries, grand piano’s and electromechanical pianos and organs. So if putting together the highest quality original score is your goal, the arranger’s best trick is quick blocking out of a basic comp track, to be almost entirely replaced later on. If a producer uses an arranger at all (extremely rare), that’s usually it. Can’t remember the last time I heard an arranger on an advertisement or a TV series or a score.

So, in a way, I guess I agree… it is nice to have an alternative to the arranger’s soundset. But I would say that going upscale, not down is the way to go! You could get Keyscapes, BFD2, and some killer softsynths for the same money that a cheap but serviceable arranger costs. And have sounds that will blow a Genos or a PA4X out of the water.