probably a medium to medium+ digital piano, preferably one with no 'gadget' features (I want the price to reflect sound quality and 'playability' (quality keybed). I'm satisfied with my current primary keyboards, a Crumar SEVEN 'Rhodes' and KeyB Duo MkIII 'organ' (I have a Legend EXP midied to a Nord C1 as a backup). I also have a Roland BK7m which I use as a (very capable) drum machine for practice and rehearsals when no live drummer is available. I have a Roland VP770 (harmonizer) midied to the BK7m to access the BK7m's internal sounds (mostly Brass), some of which are quite good.

I have several dated Arranger keyboards which are not in use and I have no desire to upgrade them at this time. Although I'm sure it's feature-rich (from an arranger players POV), I have to admit that I was underwhelmed with the few demos that I viewed of the new PA5x. The sounds are very good (as expected) but the styles left me uh, un-impressed. To my ears, they don't sound any more LIVE than any previous iteration. Although a good player plus some knowledge-based tweaking can improve the 'live' quality, the same can be done on previous models. The question is; do the improvements justify a 5k cash outlay?.

In any case, MY next keyboard purchase will be the best digital piano I can get in the $2500-3500 range. I know that a number of you have DP's and I would welcome your suggestions.

SO WHAT WILL YOUR NEXT KEYBOARD PURCHASE BE?

chas

BTW, I haven't checked lately, but have keyboard prices suffered from the same inflationary price increases as everything else?

Like you Chas, I’m seeking a digital piano. Unfortunately my budget is much lower than yours, so I’m looking at the local used market.

I’d like something. very portable with weighted keys, good acoustic and Rhode type sounds. I’d actually prefer 73-76 keys and I’d like spend not over $1000.

I’m I asking too much ?

"Underwhelmed" sounds like my feelings about Pa5X so far as well. I often have an impulse to sell all the gear I have and to stick to a decent guitar and a decent piano (digital). But when I play my PSR as a piano, I start to add strings, controlled with a pedal, or chimes, using multi pads - things not possible on digital pianos...Then I want to play with styles "just for a moment, just to try it"... Then I want to play an electric guitar voice, which works only with styles.... Eventually, it tells me that I still need an arranger. Considering unpredictability of our world, hoarding doesn't seem like an unreasonable behavior. As for digital pianos, I'm tempted with stage pianos, like Yamaha CP73/88. It's closer to a traditional instrument than an arranger or workstation, but there's still a possibility to modify it, try different sounds, in other words, not only to play it, but also to play with it. But there are no speakers inside, eventually it happens to be a big deal.

Paul, if I were using it to gig, I too would prefer a 73-76, as I think it would cover 99% of your non-classical needs. Sadly, years of organ playing have left me with the finger strength of a two-year-old , so I would probably prefer a semi-weighted keybed (hard to find in a quality '88'). Pricewise, I'd be more than happy to go lower if the unit met my playing and quality requirements. You should have no trouble finding a quality used DP in the $1k range. Just make sure you check it out thoroughly before purchasing. No matter how much it annoys the seller, make him/her demonstrate that ALL functions work properly.

Also, isn't it interesting how many older synth, workstation, and arranger users, are returning to their roots, piano, even if in digital form. It truly IS the king of musical instruments.

chas

“Older” ?!? Speak for yourself my friend Just kidding!

But, as far as synth/ arranger vs a digital piano , as our friend from Russia points out,
there’s lots sounds and rhythms that can be so much fun to explore on an arranger, but sometimes I really crave the sound and feel of an acoustic instrument. Ideally it would be great ( for me) to have a fully weighted/ hammer action digital piano - but price and /or portability is an issue.

Chas
From your description I would recommend the Roland FP90. There are many DPs out there but I have this one so I know it well. Its where I go to get back to basic playing.
Sounds- not a million but just what you need with and extremely editable Grand Piano. I haven't done much with the editing as I'm very happy with the stock sound. I've have saved some nice layers and splits .
You can also download alternate tunings. I did one called Jazz Piano, brighter and cleaner piano sound for fast playing.
Keybed - Rolands best with wooden keybed and imitation Ivory cover. Not a very heavy action and very playable. Also makes the instrument heavy but its just for my studio.
Speakers- I've said it before I hate onboard speakers BUT these are amazing. And it can get as loud as a good Studio Upright. I din't bother playing thru my studio speakers as the built ins are that good.
Looks smooth and elegant with just the right amount of buttons which are recessed .
Good luck shopping

Bill, at the moment the FP90 is the leading contender so I really appreciate the first-hand info. I'll be looking at all the major players (R,Y,K,N) plus a few lesser known but highly rated brands. One of the reasons I'm currently favoring the FP90 is that I've owned a ton of Roland boards and I've loved the key action on every single one. Now I've just got to drag my lazy butt to the music store and try some of them out. I'll take my guitar/sax/trumpet/piano playing grandson (I'm not kidding) with me and we can spend some quality time together. Guitar is his main instrument but he's fast approaching 'pro' level so I'm not complaining. His main focus is (modern) jazz with Rock a close second. ehhh.

If I find something nice I'll update you. Hey, maybe the music store will take some of my excess junk, although most of it is pretty dated. Thanks again for the FP90 info; didn't realize it had internal speakers. Isn't that unusual for a high-end keyboard (or are digital pianos an exception to that rule?).

chas

One of the ads I saw for the FP90 showed a choir director playing one with no external amp. Now that I own one I realize its possible, the speakers are that good, but he would need a few choir members to help set it up. LOL Any questions let me know, I wish you could try mine

Chas
What an inspiring note about your shopping trip with your grandson, who is advancing so well. I seems to bare out what Chas Darwin has said, plus the apple falling not far from the tree. I am happy you have each other, as I am sure it is mutually rewarding.

On a personal note, I have been recuperating from an operation to repair an inguinal hernia, so I haven't active. Everything progressing okay, just slow.

Sorry to hear about the little health hiccup, Bernie. Here's to a speedy recovery. Yeah, real happy about my grandson's interest in music. Based on his behavior as a baby, we were sure he was going straight from kindergarten to jail . Anyhow, let's get you out of that bed and back in the studio. I thought you were making great progress with the videos, as each new one showed technical and 'production' improvements over the previous one. Get well soon.

chas

Bill, trying to do a deep dive into the differences between the FP90 and the FP90x. THIS kind of research is fun, fun, fun, but taxing on the brain .

chas

From my quick look at the differences not much. I just got curious and listened to sound samples of the 90X because they changed the sound engine. I don't hear much from the demos. Mine does all I want plus it midies seamlessly to my BK7m. A NOS FP90 will save you a good amount of $$$. Amazing how prices have jumped. I see used ones for more than I paid new.
Nice story about your grandson, keep the music alive. And it sounds like he well above the typical 3 chord guitar shredders and playing some good music

Yeah, he's pretty cool. He's been taking private lessons on piano and guitar for a few years now and tenor sax at school. He plays in the school's Rock band on guitar and the (highly touted) jazz band on sax. He doesn't seem to show much interest in my various keyboards except for the Crumar SEVEN and seems mainly interested in acoustic piano. When he comes to visit, all we do is eat junk food and play music. He's in stark contrast to his older brother who is quiet, studious, musically talent-less, and an honor student in Aerospace Engineering at the Univ. of Illinois. Hard to believe they have the same parents . Hope I live long enough to see them succeed at whatever role they choose.

chas

Two kids using the different hemisphers of the brain to a high level. Very cool .What do you do when the Aerospace grandson visits, play chess ?.

NO! Since I too am an engineer (Moore, Penn) and former military and commercial pilot, we have plenty in common. I've been helping him with his instrument and commercial ratings as I have a very elaborate flight simulator setup with full physical flight instruments and controls. I am/was a CFII so I have all the instructional materials. The hardest thing is keeping up with new regulations. Just one more thing to keep the mind from getting stagnant, otherwise I'd spend all my time napping and snacking. After I'm gone, I just want them to look back and remember me fondly. I'm very proud of the way my son raised them.

chas

Currently, my stage piano gearlust choice would probably be for the Nord, primarily because of the wide selection of different sampled sets available. Sometimes a nice Yamaha CIII is perfect, sometimes I want that Steinway darkness, sometimes a beat up (but convincing) upright is the perfect choice. Nord have a ton of available soundsets…

I must admit, I am astounded at how many are underwhelmed by the PA5x, apparently by people that haven’t quite yet understood the game changing nature of being able to mix and match between two styles (and multipads) simultaneously on the fly. It’s the death knell for style fatigue. Limitless style variations at your fingertips!

It’s the first truly gamechanging ARRANGER OS addition in decades. We’ve been mired in 3-4 Intros, 4 Variations 4-6 fills and 3-4 Endings (plus a break/fill) for 20+ years. This one feature DOUBLED all that, plus allows instant mixing and matching between the two. Remember, this isn’t just about playing two whole styles at the same time… there’s nothing to stop you muting out different Parts in each style.

Two styles, six Parts, that’s 36 potential combinations of no two similar Parts playing at the same time. 36 different styles out of just two! And that’s not counting if you have BOTH Parts playing together on some combinations…

We should be dancing in the streets..! Other manufacturers should be scrambling to add this lest they lose their market..! I don’t understand how this can be glossed over and people say they don’t think the PA5x is ‘different enough’.

This is the most important arranger in 30 years. Wake up, arranger players..! 😎🎹🎉

Different things are important to different people. We superficially look at features (most of which we'll never use) and then immediately turn to the demos; demos done by professionals (defined as 'people who play a lot better than us ) who are paid a lot of money by the manufacturers to present their products in the best possible light. We then decide if we like what we hear. The buyer's EAR, not the instrument's features, is going to be the larger determinant of whether we shell out 5 grand or not. Of course features matter but our overall impression of the way the instrument sounds in the styles that are presented, are going to weigh much heavier in the decision...IN MY OPINION.

Frankly, I'm not seeing the value of the new features you mention but that's probably because I'm not a dedicated, all-out Arranger player. They seem more technical than musical to me and (for me) would be a distraction when playing in real time. Off-line, I'd probably spend to much time trying to figure out how, when, and where, to use these 'breakthrough' features. A B3's drawbars has over two million possible combinations; in fifty years, I've learned about 8 of them . But hey, you know how old folks feel about change .

Anyhow, glad you're here to help us with the technical stuff, Diki, even if we're too dumb to understand, acquire, or use it. Intellectually, we're only one step above drummers .

chas

It’s not so much about why people buy arrangers… that’s pretty predictable. New sounds, new styles. As you correctly point, not too many of us salivate over the OS’s (although I’d venture that Korg users tend to be among the more technical amongst us), but I’m pretty sure I know why most of us want a new one…

New sounds, new styles.

Well, here’s the solution to new styles. A myriad easy ways to combine two at the same time.

And a pretty big sampler and the fresh feature of being able finally to import sf2 multisample files, of which there’s a never ending supply, so new sounds has become much easier.

Time after time, again and again, everybody focuses on the new styles and new sounds. In truth, very little else has been added to arrangers in the last 20 years. A wrinkle here, a wrinkle there. But truth be told, most of us would be able to sound nearly as good (or bad!) on what we played 20 years ago. But many of us have bought each new arranger. At considerable cost. When all we really wanted was some fresh styles and some new sounds.

Well, here it is. The math is pretty staggering. 2 styles with eight Parts, that’s 64 possible combinations of muting different parts to make unique (but related) styles. Way more when you allow two similar Parts to play simultaneously…! The end of style fatigue, with none of the technical skills needed for making your own styles, or even hand combining them the way current arrangers allow.

Yes, you and I chas are not big fans of the arranger section up to this point. Both of us are probably more focused on the playing part rather than the backing part. But this is, after all, an arranger forum. So I thought I’d try to shine a brighter light on a brand new capability that radically changes the arranger experience.

It’s not the first time, LOL..! For years I praised the chord sequencer to little interest, back when only Roland had it. Now they all have them at least on the TOTL, and more and more are beginning to see it’s usefulness. Few thought there was any need for a 76 keybed. Now it’s common on most brands, and some flagships are available ONLY in that size. NO, I’m not prescient! But I have used the arranger section enough to spot something that has a MUSICAL use, and a way to extend the span of time it takes before you want something fresh.

You and I have hung on to arrangers much longer than most, primarily I think because we aren’t that fond of the arranger section. N the bad old days, we had many members buying the latest thing every single time a new model (often of any brand!) came out. And I guarantee it was boredom with the styles and sounds that triggered it.

So, before it takes months or even years for us to recognize it, allow me to gush about the new Korg! I probably won’t be getting one. I’m still not that much in love with tying up my LH playing rote chords. But for those of us who do, here’s IMHO the biggest step forward they’ve made in decades…. 🎹

Diki

That just makes me feel guilty for not doing the work that would get me more conversant with the more technical aspects of my keyboards. Like it or not, I feel you are so right. OTOH, most of us take the less painful route of throwing money at the problem of wanting something new and exciting. Of course, we really know that down the road we will do it again-such fun to have a new board.

I guess that I am just an old hack that loves playing my music the fastest way. Shame on me, but I will get over it. LOL

Don’t worry, we ALL go down that path to one degree or another..!

The reason I’m so enthusiastic about this new feature is that it is several orders of magnitude easier to mix and match two styles than it used to be. And something that is easy will get used a lot!

I know how to combine styles the old fashioned way, but it took hours and you never really knew if it was a good fit until you had done hours of work. So, to my shame, I only did it a couple of times just as an exercise.

Because everything you are doing can get stored in the Songbook, both styles, which mutes are on etc., what used to take hours can be done in a couple of minutes…

Now THAT’S my idea of something I’d do all the time! 😂🎹😎

That makes a world of difference. You have already paid your dues and can see why you are enthusiastic.

Not being sarcastic Diki, but why would you WANT to mix two different styles? First of all, I'm not sure what you mean by 'two styles'. Do you mean like two (related?) styles in the same genre'?...or two totally different styles? And in the first case, wouldn't that just be a variation? I'm probably just not understanding what you're describing but since Korg opted to include it as a feature, it must have some validity. Could you elaborate a little on how this would work and in what instance you would use it. Do the two styles play simultaneously? Do the two tempo's automatically sync (assuming the two styles have different tempos). These probably sound like silly questions to those that understand the concept/process. If you've got a sonic example, please share it. That'll be the quickest way for me to 'get it'. Can't blame me though, the two instruments I still drool over (Rhodes & B3) haven't evolved much in the last (respectively) 60 to 80 years.

BTW, I've included both Nord and Kawai in my digital piano search but the models I like are both too damn expensive ($4500/3500). I just don't play that well .

chas

Chas… let’s say you like the bassline from one style, but the guitar pattern from another. Yes, they both play in sync, simultaneously, and you can define which Parts are muted and which sound.

Yes, this obviously works best with pretty related styles, but there’s also an opportunity to mix and match say Latin styles with jazz, or electronica with smooth jazz, or polka with hard rock (!), whatever floats your boat..!

As I’ve pointed out, so far most of the demos of this feature simply cue up two styles at the same time and let them run almost fully against each other. This will tend to work if the two styles are very different (like a classical orchestra layered against an electronic beat) but I think even Korg haven’t yet realized the feature’s full implications (most of the demonstrators haven’t, that’s for sure!).

But by muting and unmuting different Parts as the style plays you get a far wider range of Variations without having to switch styles (and yes, you CAN do that on the fly to either of the sounding styles). You can also turn on or off either of the two styles.

Personally, I see its most musical use with very related similar styles, but the experimentation angle is also open for curiosity.

Don’t forget, it’s not just the two styles, it’s their multipads too…

I was about to ask the same thing as Chas. If anyone has any videos of this being demonstrated, I think many of us would have a better understanding. I just haven't had the interest in watching the rather long videos that have been put of so far on new Korg....

Diki, you and Paul both sort of touched on something....the demonstrators. For a major product rollout, these are the most (I'll be nice) unexciting (boring) demos I've seen in awhile. Maybe that's why some of us found the instrument 'underwhelming'.

I'm betting a great player doing a string of short 'feature' demos, accompanied by clear explanations of the features he was demonstrating, would go a long way towards improving this instruments first impression. I'm with Paul. I hate looooong demos, usually playing a style that makes me want to stick my head out the door and scream. Somebody start a GoFundMe and get Marco Parisi on the phone . I'd like to see what this baby can REALLY do.

chas

I agree… get Marco on the phone!

Thing is, as the market dwindles, as sales fall, as margins get ever slimmer, it appears that the budget to launch new products with wow factor videos and demos grows ever smaller.

Then you get these underwhelming intro videos which discourage rampant upgrading envy, sales underwhelm, less money comes in, you get a nasty feedback loop that spirals downwards…

Mind you, we are also part of this feedback loop. You can’t believe the inventiveness over at Korgforums as anticipation and leaks got ahead of Korg’s release schedule, and as demo videos have naturally got to be the absolute last thing that gets done, there was little patience from the base. Maybe another month for great demonstrators to investigate the new features and get the most out of them would have made a bigger splash at launch, but leaks pretty much put the kibosh on that!

We simultaneously want immediate full information AND deep demonstration of features and sounds that must be new to the demonstrator team. I’m afraid the two seem mutually exclusive…