For more info on KETRON products, visit us at www.AjamSonic.com or http://www.KetronAmerica.com * Professional Arranger. 76 half-weighted keys keyboard. * New dual processor * 128 Notes polyphony. Top quality Orchestral Sounds. 2 Voices ( 3 Sounds each ) * Performance. User Voice, User Style. Registrations. * 3 Groove Section3, with new Loops and Midi Patterns * New Digital Drawbars are back. * 4 x DSP Effects. External DSP controls with potentiometers. * More than 400 Styles. Full Audio Arrangements, featuring Live Drums, Real Bass and Real Chords, Live Guitars and 5 Midi Chords. 3 Lower Voices. * Phrase Recording. Midi Song recording. * User Sample Editor with 32 Splits, Stereo samples, up to 4 Layers.
#506645 - 09/29/2205:08 AMRe: The new KETRON EVENT Workstation ... it's coming.
[Re: Ketron_AJ]
Gunnar Jonny
Senior Member
Registered: 04/01/01
Posts: 4380
Loc: Norway
👍 Looks and sounds very imressive, natural and well balanced, almost BiaB'ish.... Looking forward to see more specs and listen to more of this new Audio Arranger, but when Ketron use the word soon, it may take a long time if it's going to be similiar to when the Audya was announced the first time .... 🤔
_________________________
Cheers 🥂 GJ _______________________________________________ "Success is not counted by how high you have climbed but by how many you brought with you." (Wil Rose)
As always, with audio loop backing, I want to hear it deals with more than basic maj min and 7ths.
Where’s the 6/9’s? Where’s the augmented chords? Where’s the open 5’s? Where’s the half diminished? Where’s the 7#9’s?
For it to impress professionals, shouldn’t it be able to play more than basic chords?
And sorry, but we have moved WAY past sampled saxes that tongue every note. Articulated at a minimum, modeled for true ‘pro’ results.
I know these audio loop things impress when deliberately restricted to basic chords, but surely in these days of SSD’s and fast streaming, why can’t we have audio loops of more than three or four basic chords?
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
#506660 - 09/30/2206:06 AMRe: The new KETRON EVENT Workstation ... it's coming.
[Re: Diki]
Ketron_AJ Moderator
Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3600
Loc: Middletown, DE
Originally Posted By Diki
As always, with audio loop backing, I want to hear it deals with more than basic maj min and 7ths.
Where’s the 6/9’s? Where’s the augmented chords? Where’s the open 5’s? Where’s the half diminished? Where’s the 7#9’s?
For it to impress professionals, shouldn’t it be able to play more than basic chords?
And sorry, but we have moved WAY past sampled saxes that tongue every note. Articulated at a minimum, modeled for true ‘pro’ results.
I know these audio loop things impress when deliberately restricted to basic chords, but surely in these days of SSD’s and fast streaming, why can’t we have audio loops of more than three or four basic chords?
With the EVENT, you the user can now create your own Live Guitar and audio arrangements so the sky is the limit.
I am sure once it is released and you purchase one, you will be able to dig in deeper and experiment to the fullest with how it handles these other chord variants [Where’s the 6/9’s? Where’s the augmented chords? Where’s the open 5’s? Where’s the half diminished? Where’s the 7#9’s?] which if missing you can produce for your styles and taste of music. That is the beauty of this keyboard - the power is in the hands of the end user to create whatever they want.
why can’t we have audio loops of more than three or four basic chords?We can. You can have up to 1024 Audio Guitar chord wave-files per style assigned to a style so if what is provided isn't enough, you can add even more chord variations to the table.
Keep on doing the good job, AJ! Ketron users are confident ... and waiting...
_________________________
from now on, on some forums, I make a screen copy... in case... time will tell imagine some people you know having more power...luckily God knows best! Take it easy ... and funny!
As always, with audio loop backing, I want to hear it deals with more than basic maj min and 7ths.
Where’s the 6/9’s? Where’s the augmented chords? Where’s the open 5’s? Where’s the half diminished? Where’s the 7#9’s?
For it to impress professionals, shouldn’t it be able to play more than basic chords?
And sorry, but we have moved WAY past sampled saxes that tongue every note. Articulated at a minimum, modeled for true ‘pro’ results.
I know these audio loop things impress when deliberately restricted to basic chords, but surely in these days of SSD’s and fast streaming, why can’t we have audio loops of more than three or four basic chords?
With the EVENT, you the user can now create your own Live Guitar and audio arrangements so the sky is the limit.
I am sure once it is released and you purchase one, you will be able to dig in deeper and experiment to the fullest with how it handles these other chord variants [Where’s the 6/9’s? Where’s the augmented chords? Where’s the open 5’s? Where’s the half diminished? Where’s the 7#9’s?] which if missing you can produce for your styles and taste of music. That is the beauty of this keyboard - the power is in the hands of the end user to create whatever they want.
why can’t we have audio loops of more than three or four basic chords?We can. You can have up to 1024 Audio Guitar chord wave-files per style assigned to a style so if what is provided isn't enough, you can add even more chord variations to the table.
So, to be clear, if I want to play music with more than utterly basic chords, I will have to hire a studio for days, pay a guitarist, horn section, string section, a bass player, and spend hours trying to get them to play the same pattern in all keys with metronomic precision, then spend days auditioning the loops to balance them and make sure they transition well to other chords.
For every single style I feel like playing more than 3 or 4 basic chords.
Yeah, right. 🙄 I will not be buying one. The arranger will cost next to nothing compared to what I would have to pay just to make a few styles.
This is the rabbit hole of audio loop backing. I truly believe it’s a dead end. There are quite spectacularly good VSTi’s that sound utterly convincing doing guitar strumming and picking. Acoustic and electric. And they play all chords, all positions, correctly voiced. Same with virtual basses. Integrate one of those into an arranger, you get the same results as an audio loop, but without the drastic reduction of chord types available.
An insane suggestion to ‘make your own audio styles if you want more than basic chords’ is truly no solution whatsoever. The fact that the machine IS capable of covering all commonly used chords (which is a damn sight more that maj min and 7ths!) but Ketron did not actually bother recording them all while they were creating them shows what these would cost. Or did you only record the bare minimum because you have a poor opinion about the skill off you customers?
That suggestion is an insult to anyone with even a basic knowledge of recording.
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
Each person, each experience, each need... Genos and PA5X have their fans; this one will have ... mainly about those who TRULY KNOWS Ketron. I am awaiting more details and launching, as it is usual for every machine. Time will tell; no need to interfere each day and condemn in advance ... especially not knowing all the specification, price .... and real users advices....
it ends up looking like a personal crusade Just my feeling...
_________________________
from now on, on some forums, I make a screen copy... in case... time will tell imagine some people you know having more power...luckily God knows best! Take it easy ... and funny!
#506666 - 09/30/2203:26 PMRe: The new KETRON EVENT Workstation ... it's coming.
[Re: Diki]
Ketron_AJ Moderator
Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3600
Loc: Middletown, DE
Originally Posted By Diki
Originally Posted By Ketron_AJ
Originally Posted By Diki
As always, with audio loop backing, I want to hear it deals with more than basic maj min and 7ths.
Where’s the 6/9’s? Where’s the augmented chords? Where’s the open 5’s? Where’s the half diminished? Where’s the 7#9’s?
For it to impress professionals, shouldn’t it be able to play more than basic chords?
And sorry, but we have moved WAY past sampled saxes that tongue every note. Articulated at a minimum, modeled for true ‘pro’ results.
I know these audio loop things impress when deliberately restricted to basic chords, but surely in these days of SSD’s and fast streaming, why can’t we have audio loops of more than three or four basic chords?
With the EVENT, you the user can now create your own Live Guitar and audio arrangements so the sky is the limit.
I am sure once it is released and you purchase one, you will be able to dig in deeper and experiment to the fullest with how it handles these other chord variants [Where’s the 6/9’s? Where’s the augmented chords? Where’s the open 5’s? Where’s the half diminished? Where’s the 7#9’s?] which if missing you can produce for your styles and taste of music. That is the beauty of this keyboard - the power is in the hands of the end user to create whatever they want.
why can’t we have audio loops of more than three or four basic chords?We can. You can have up to 1024 Audio Guitar chord wave-files per style assigned to a style so if what is provided isn't enough, you can add even more chord variations to the table.
So, to be clear, if I want to play music with more than utterly basic chords, I will have to hire a studio for days, pay a guitarist, horn section, string section, a bass player, and spend hours trying to get them to play the same pattern in all keys with metronomic precision, then spend days auditioning the loops to balance them and make sure they transition well to other chords.
For every single style I feel like playing more than 3 or 4 basic chords.
Yeah, right. 🙄 I will not be buying one. The arranger will cost next to nothing compared to what I would have to pay just to make a few styles.
This is the rabbit hole of audio loop backing. I truly believe it’s a dead end. There are quite spectacularly good VSTi’s that sound utterly convincing doing guitar strumming and picking. Acoustic and electric. And they play all chords, all positions, correctly voiced. Same with virtual basses. Integrate one of those into an arranger, you get the same results as an audio loop, but without the drastic reduction of chord types available.
An insane suggestion to ‘make your own audio styles if you want more than basic chords’ is truly no solution whatsoever. The fact that the machine IS capable of covering all commonly used chords (which is a damn sight more that maj min and 7ths!) but Ketron did not actually bother recording them all while they were creating them shows what these would cost. Or did you only record the bare minimum because you have a poor opinion about the skill off you customers?
That suggestion is an insult to anyone with even a basic knowledge of recording.
Sorry that you took the suggestion as an insult. When you make suggestions to others, I hope they too do not feel likewise but take it for what it is - a suggestion.
Finding out exactly what chord tables are filled by KETRON and which you/the user will have to fill (if required) can again only be accomplished accurately if you/the user purchase or try out the machine. Even the features of other manufacturers have to be tried out before purchases to see if they will suit your needs. Audio may not suit yours or it might be above your budget and that is ok. However, for those who see this path as a positive one, the KETRON products (in general) and EVENT (in particular) are for you.
I’m trying to think of a professional that DOESN’T regularly need to play more than three chord types.
Nope. Can’t think of one.
We’re not talking arcane jazz chords here. How about a simple sus4? Or the ubiquitous diminished? Or the odd augmented…
These are common chord types that don’t phase a MIDI based arranger one iota. And several arranger brands have Guitar Mode systems that voice guitar chords and strumming and picking techniques quite accurately. Maybe not quite as well as some of the best VSTi’s yet, but they are getting much closer.
All I’m trying to say is that the price for a 100% realistic guitar part is too high if it can’t even play the basic chords a regular arranger can. It’s like making an utterly convincing stage piano, but only the white notes! Play everything in diatonic C, it will fool anybody. Need the odd black note, you’re screwed.
Maybe telling me that if I want more than the barebones three or four chord types, I have to make my own guitar loops wasn’t intended as an insult. But it certainly demonstrated a complete lack of awareness about how much work and expense it would take for even one style.
I don’t have anything against Ketron, there are many forward thinking ideas they have implemented, they make some amazing arrangers. All I’m trying to suggest is that, compared to taking a harder look at developing a proper Guitar Mode system like Steinbetg Virtual Guitarist or AAS Strum (or even just like Korg’s system or Roland’s one from the G70/E/80), taking the easy way out and using a few basic audio guitar loops is actually a step backwards, not forwards.
My goal has always been for the arranger to back what I want to play. Not dictate what I can and can’t play because it only can play a handful of chords.
I don’t think that’s waiting for Jesus to come. It is already here. It just needs implementing.
You are about to hear some amazing demos of the new Ketron. But what you WON’T be hearing is the demonstrator playing anything the arranger doesn’t do well. You’ll have to buy one to find that out for yourself. 😂🎹😎
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
Just a thought, but has Ketron made any effort to provide copy protection for third party user created content? It strikes me that yes, it might be worth it for someone to take on the expense of creating far more comprehensive guitar chord choices if they can be guaranteed that they won’t be traded around for free after one person buys the style.
But if they can be pirated, it won’t be worth the bother.
I think we would all benefit from a huge spike in third party content if the talented people who do it have an easy way to make sure they get paid for their work. Sadly, the almost complete collapse of the third party style industry (couple of decades ago there was a much better selection of styles from third party vendors than today) is mostly the result of easy piracy. It’s only worth the effort if you can be guaranteed each sale is to one person alone.
Yamaha’s system works quite well (I think we have a member here that helps make some of their Latin styles), so it apparently can be done. I think Korg’s new PA5X also has significantly improved their copy protection system.
Do Ketron have something like those?
I can see the potential for third party vendors stepping in to improve the barebones chord choices if they do…
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
... ... ... boring... ... waiting for constructive words on real things by AJ, Sokratis or whatever else... I wish I were an admin to spread any thougths on whatever topic!
_________________________
from now on, on some forums, I make a screen copy... in case... time will tell imagine some people you know having more power...luckily God knows best! Take it easy ... and funny!
... ... ... boring... ... waiting for constructive words on real things by AJ, Sokratis or whatever else... I wish I were an admin to spread any thougths on whatever topic!
Apparently, you don’t need admin status to do that… 😂
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
... but I don't think i bother people as you do... Enough .... waiting for next interesting words... (not from you) Elderness without wisdom is so sad!
Edited by Ingres (10/01/2202:30 PM)
_________________________
from now on, on some forums, I make a screen copy... in case... time will tell imagine some people you know having more power...luckily God knows best! Take it easy ... and funny!
Hello. Ketron has copy protection system since Audya but for her own reasons she doesn't have it (public). But when someone foreign developer ask for the protection system, the company provides it. For various reasons, however, there were not many who were interested in development. Regarding your concern about the chords in the new Real Chord, I have the following to say: It is something much more different than the old sliced Live Guitar which indeed in most cases did not exceed 4 to 5 different chords so in the case of choosing a chord that did not exist a midi file riff which was trying to fill the void.
The new Real Chord of Ketron It has two exellent new features: 1) Incredible ease of import into the machine. 2) Multi-chord capability. But let me not expand further because I can't say more that right until the company announces everything. When everything is announced I will be able to analyze it for you. Thanks.
Edited by Sokratis 1974 (10/01/2211:23 PM)
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Style Producer Ketron Event, Ketron Audya 76, Audya 5, SD9, SD1,Yamaha Genos, Korg Pa3x, microarranger, Roland Fantom G6, V-Synth XT, XV-5080, SH201, D-50, Novation KS4, Dave Smith Evolver
... but I don't think i bother people as you do... Enough .... waiting for next interesting words... (not from you) Elderness without wisdom is so sad!
You have a lot of success on other forums insulting the moderators..?
First warning. Want to see if you get a second?
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
#506684 - 10/02/2208:22 AMRe: The new KETRON EVENT Workstation ... it's coming.
[Re: Diki]
cgiles
Senior Member
Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Originally Posted By Diki
You have a lot of success on other forums insulting the moderators..?
First warning. Want to see if you get a second?
I don't think threats are in order here. It may trigger thoughts among members of 'abuse of power'. Plus, I don't think his comments had anything to do with 'moderators' in general, seemed more directed than that to me.
Could it be that some members might get a little tired of hearing all the criticisms of their $3-5k investments (which they seem to be quite satisfied with). I love my car even though it doesn't have a heads-up display or self-parking. Maybe it's because I don't think self-parking is going to make my trip better or make me a better driver. And if my son points out these omissions, I will quickly tell him to go screw himself. What I'm saying is, that people get tired of being harangued about things they don't give a hoot about. Maybe problems should be addressed when they're presented by actual users of the instrument in question. What's important to some members may have little or no importance to others and that's a personal thing. Also, opinions shouldn't be presented as fact, no matter how credentialed the person THINKS they are. Look how long we thought the world was flat. JMO, of course. Hope I don't get expelled for expressing it.
chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]
_________________________
from now on, on some forums, I make a screen copy... in case... time will tell imagine some people you know having more power...luckily God knows best! Take it easy ... and funny!
For more info on KETRON products, visit us at www.AjamSonic.com or http://www.KetronAmerica.com * Professional Arranger. 76 half-weighted keys keyboard. * New dual processor * 128 Notes polyphony. Top quality Orchestral Sounds. 2 Voices ( 3 Sounds each ) * Performance. User Voice, User Style. Registrations. * 3 Groove Section3, with new Loops and Midi Patterns * New Digital Drawbars are back. * 4 x DSP Effects. External DSP controls with potentiometers. * More than 400 Styles. Full Audio Arrangements, featuring Live Drums, Real Bass and Real Chords, Live Guitars and 5 Midi Chords. 3 Lower Voices. * Phrase Recording. Midi Song recording. * User Sample Editor with 32 Splits, Stereo samples, up to 4 Layers.
128 notes and 4 DSPs. (!!!)
It sounds like a PSR 1500 of 2004 (sold for the equivalent of ~1 k€ current day money), not a top of the line arranger of 2023 (probably retailing at 4÷5 k€).
HW arrangers have always been old tech, lagging 15÷20 years behind other more mainstream computing devices. The PSR 1500 in 2004 was no exception. Here we are adding another 20 years of lag on top of the usual and standard 20 years. Totaling a whopping 30÷40 years ”late to the party” retro computing technology.
And, by the way, the PSR 1500 could play flawlessly not less than 20+ different chord shapes in all the 12 keys.
And that, Chas, is the way to form a post that isn’t simply an insult.
I do NOT post my candid personal opinions about members here. What I feel about them, their playing ability, technical ability or their personality is kept to myself. You REALLY don’t want to hear my candid impressions of several people who regularly post here..!
And sorry, but this is not an abuse of power. I would threaten a ban to ANYONE who simply insulted another member here. This is not a forum for personal insults. No matter how defensive you might feel about a criticism of an expensive arranger you spent money on, it’s not a direct criticism of YOU.
Ingres’ post was. And that won’t be tolerated here, no matter who it’s directed at.
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
For more info on KETRON products, visit us at www.AjamSonic.com or http://www.KetronAmerica.com * Professional Arranger. 76 half-weighted keys keyboard. * New dual processor * 128 Notes polyphony. Top quality Orchestral Sounds. 2 Voices ( 3 Sounds each ) * Performance. User Voice, User Style. Registrations. * 3 Groove Section3, with new Loops and Midi Patterns * New Digital Drawbars are back. * 4 x DSP Effects. External DSP controls with potentiometers. * More than 400 Styles. Full Audio Arrangements, featuring Live Drums, Real Bass and Real Chords, Live Guitars and 5 Midi Chords. 3 Lower Voices. * Phrase Recording. Midi Song recording. * User Sample Editor with 32 Splits, Stereo samples, up to 4 Layers.
128 notes and 4 DSPs. (!!!)
It sounds like a PSR 1500 of 2004 (sold for the equivalent of ~1 k€ current day money), not a top of the line arranger of 2023 (probably retailing at 4÷5 k€).
HW arrangers have always been old tech, lagging 15÷20 years behind other more mainstream computing devices. The PSR 1500 in 2004 was no exception. Here we are adding another 20 years of lag on top of the usual and standard 20 years. Totaling a whopping 30÷40 years ”late to the party” retro computing technology.
And, by the way, the PSR 1500 could play flawlessly not less than 20+ different chord shapes in all the 12 keys.
The problem with software arrangers is that, so far, no one has put a package together with as integrated and consistent a soundset as a decent TOTL hardware arranger. As always, the goal with most players is to turn it on and it sound good out of the box. Arranger soundsets are designed with this in mind. They are also designed for simple sound swap ability. Take a rock kit, change it to a brush set, the style still sounds balanced. Take the acoustic guitar track and change it to a chorused Strat… it still sounds balanced. Go from a grand piano to a Rhodes in you RH area, you don’t have to adjust the volume. You have several pianos to choose from, often dozens of Rhodes and other E.Pianos to choose from, and they most likely won’t need you to grab the volume slider in a panic.
But that’s not how workstations are set up. And that’s DEFINITELY not how software sound packages are set up. It’s the Wild West out there, with very little volume leveling or consistency of velocity response from sound to sound. That’s not really a high priority for workstations and software sample sets other than some very barebones Sound Canvas emulators.
So, while you get access to FAR better sounds if you go the software route, you’re pretty much on your own to balance it all and get an instrument that is as instantly flexible as a well designed hardware synth.
And I’m sorry, but the whole business of guitar strumming and picking is WAY more complicated than a lowly PSR1500 could manage. Sure, it can play far more chord types than most loop based arrangers can, but they are voiced wrong, and jump around in a completely unrealistic way. Guitars aren’t linear. Because of the strings and chord shapes, you can’t use a simple lookup table on a guitar part.
Korg, Yamaha and Roland all developed unique solutions to voicing guitar chords far more correctly than the old PSR1500. And current software VSTi’s do it amazingly well. It’s stuff like this I want to see as the future of guitar part emulation. Loops are only as good as how many different types, keys, and inversions are recorded for them. It looks like the new Ketron COULD get close, but it appears that cost considerations (great session players and good studios aren’t cheap!) have made them restrict the choices. Understandably, to be honest.
But if you want to hear how good MIDI based guitar emulation has got, go listen to some AAS Strum demos, or Steinberg’s Virtual Guitarist, or Ample Guitar etc..
The need for audio loops for realism has all but disappeared.
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
For more info on KETRON products, visit us at www.AjamSonic.com or http://www.KetronAmerica.com * Professional Arranger. 76 half-weighted keys keyboard. * New dual processor * 128 Notes polyphony. Top quality Orchestral Sounds. 2 Voices ( 3 Sounds each ) * Performance. User Voice, User Style. Registrations. * 3 Groove Section3, with new Loops and Midi Patterns * New Digital Drawbars are back. * 4 x DSP Effects. External DSP controls with potentiometers. * More than 400 Styles. Full Audio Arrangements, featuring Live Drums, Real Bass and Real Chords, Live Guitars and 5 Midi Chords. 3 Lower Voices. * Phrase Recording. Midi Song recording. * User Sample Editor with 32 Splits, Stereo samples, up to 4 Layers.
128 notes and 4 DSPs. (!!!)
It sounds like a PSR 1500 of 2004 (sold for the equivalent of ~1 k€ current day money), not a top of the line arranger of 2023 (probably retailing at 4÷5 k€).
HW arrangers have always been old tech, lagging 15÷20 years behind other more mainstream computing devices. The PSR 1500 in 2004 was no exception. Here we are adding another 20 years of lag on top of the usual and standard 20 years. Totaling a whopping 30÷40 years ”late to the party” retro computing technology.
And, by the way, the PSR 1500 could play flawlessly not less than 20+ different chord shapes in all the 12 keys.
I need to respond to such posts just because there are others who read this and if they do not see a response, take it for its value.
More Polyphony is needed more for purely MIDI-based arrangers and less for Hybrids (Midi + Audio). So when you quote a Midi based arranger having 128 notes some years ago, you are correct, but comparing that or equating that to an Arranger with both Midi and Audio can't be true, let alone an instrument that is streaming 5 Audio tracks together at once! The KETRON AUDYA is a Hybrid (Midi and Audio) Arranger with 196 notes of Polyphony.
To give others a perspective so they are not lost - when you play your Wav/Mp3 song, your 'player' sees it as 2 tracks (Stereo), so you get all these sounds coming off 2 tracks; therefore in the Midi world, your player is 2 notes polyphony as it can play a max of 2 'tracks' at a given time. So if you have a keyboard that can play 6 audio tracks that has 128 notes assigned to Midi playback, that is a HUGE leap forward in today's technology, especially when it can play that AS AN ARRANGER in conjunction with any style (chord changes in real-time, tempo changes in real-time), a feature no PSR to date can do effortlessly, and so while the technology in many Midi Based Arranger may be outdated, those in the Hybrid Arrangers are just beginning to show their "strengths" and yes, weaknesses too.
I hope this clarifies this for others out there who are reading this post.
Thanks for clarifying, as far as you are allowed to at this moment.
Edited by Ingres (10/04/2202:17 PM)
_________________________
from now on, on some forums, I make a screen copy... in case... time will tell imagine some people you know having more power...luckily God knows best! Take it easy ... and funny!
Thanks for clarifying, as far as you are allowed to at this moment.
Everyone is ‘allowed’ to comment all they want to here, with the exception (which you crossed) of personal insults to other members. That this hasn’t sunk in brings up some questions about your ability to read English…
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
... 1 for your information, English is not my native language ... 2 I was speaking of what informations Ketron allows AJ and Sokratis to divulgate at this time, before launching ... sorry if it was not clear...
Edited by Ingres (10/05/2212:01 PM)
_________________________
from now on, on some forums, I make a screen copy... in case... time will tell imagine some people you know having more power...luckily God knows best! Take it easy ... and funny!
Thanks for clarifying, as far as you are allowed to at this moment.
Everyone is ‘allowed’ to comment all they want to here, with the exception (which you crossed) of personal insults to other members. That this hasn’t sunk in brings up some questions about your ability to read English…
... and I didn't even take your remark as an insult
_________________________
from now on, on some forums, I make a screen copy... in case... time will tell imagine some people you know having more power...luckily God knows best! Take it easy ... and funny!
Sadly , couldn’t buy a Ketron, here in Aust. even if I wanted . Had an sd1, a long time back, from there it went downhill. I think the only store that sells them over here , has a Ketron Audya 4 module and a Ketron sd3 for sale on their website, as far as I can tell, that’s it. Guessing the brand is just not popular enough over here.🥲
So if you have a keyboard that can play 6 audio tracks that has 128 notes assigned to Midi playback, that is a HUGE leap forward in today's technology, especially when it can play that AS AN ARRANGER in conjunction with any style (chord changes in real-time, tempo changes in real-time), a feature no PSR to date can do effortlessly, and so while the technology in many Midi Based Arranger may be outdated, those in the Hybrid Arrangers are just beginning to show their "strengths" and yes, weaknesses too.
Playing pre-recorded audio tracks is computationally the LEAST EXPENSIVE operation you can do with audio. Every DAW allows you to render to audio every track in order to reduce CPU load and hence let your computer play more tracks than it would otherwise be possible. This of course has huge downsides (and is therefore a last resort decision when you run out of better options). When you lose the midi to audio real time computation, you are stuck with a fixed outcome you cannot anymore modify, neither in real time, nor once for all at the beginning. You cannot change the patch, the sound parameters (filter, ADSR, .....), effects, note velocity, tempo, ... whatever! It is like having a few CDs vs a real instrument. With the CDs you can listen over and over again to the same immutable songs; with the instrument you can play all the songs you want, with no limits. At least with a DAW, although inconvenient, you can change the parameters and re-render the track(s) to audio. With a Ketron arranger you can NOT send the arranger back to Ketron and have it reflashed with the new parameters. Can you? Would it be convenient? Is this a "HUGE leap forward in today's technology"? I do not think so. It sounds more like a two steps back from 1980's technology.
Additionally it is not clear how many audio patterns you have (I think this is intentional, not to scare potential buyers). In a midi based arranger you have not less than 20 chord shapes x 12 keys x 3 inversions x 4 variations x 8 parts x 500 styles x 1000 sounds x countless effects x all the tweaks you want apply to each parameter. You can make all the multiplications and have an idea. How many choices do you have with Ketron audio tracks?
And even worse, if I am playing a C chord (C + E + G) and then I play (G + C + E) do I hear something happening or not? And then if a play (G# + C + E) is there something happening or not? If I change the tempo from 100 bpm to 50 bpm or 150 bpm what happens? If I want to experiment with more/less distortion to the guitar? If I want a chorused clean guitar (+ delay) instead of a distorted one?
Every midi based arranger can easily cope with all this, I would like to HEAR the audio output of a Ketron arranger (while featuring the advertised audio tracks) in these basic scenarios.
The stinger for me in the audio loop/guitar mode debate is, okay, let’s say you’ve got some absolutely AMAZING sounding guitar parts in styles using the loops. But you’ve got limited chord choice. And you’ve got a huge collection of legacy styles without the loops.
So now you’ve got a huge jump in quality of backing between those audio loop styles, and everything else you need to play. One minute you sound great, the next minute, you don’t. And there’s nothing much you can do about it. Other than stop playing the tunes and styles that force you to use the MIDI guitars. Or stop playing the styles that show up the rest of your styles.
Consistency… that’s what you get with a well developed guitar mode. Your old styles sound as good as your new ones (as long as you assign the Parts to the best new sounds and kits) and ALL your new styles sound equally good.
As a performer, that’s what I’m looking for. I don’t want to blow everyone away one style and be Ho-hum the next. I don’t want to start substituting simpler (wrong) chords just so the arranger doesn’t jump to a mismatched MIDI guitar part for that chord it hasn’t recorded.
Consistency…
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
So if you have a keyboard that can play 6 audio tracks that has 128 notes assigned to Midi playback, that is a HUGE leap forward in today's technology, especially when it can play that AS AN ARRANGER in conjunction with any style (chord changes in real-time, tempo changes in real-time), a feature no PSR to date can do effortlessly, and so while the technology in many Midi Based Arranger may be outdated, those in the Hybrid Arrangers are just beginning to show their "strengths" and yes, weaknesses too.
Playing pre-recorded audio tracks is computationally the LEAST EXPENSIVE operation you can do with audio. Every DAW allows you to render to audio every track in order to reduce CPU load and hence let your computer play more tracks than it would otherwise be possible. This of course has huge downsides (and is therefore a last resort decision when you run out of better options). When you lose the midi to audio real time computation, you are stuck with a fixed outcome you cannot anymore modify, neither in real time, nor once for all at the beginning. You cannot change the patch, the sound parameters (filter, ADSR, .....), effects, note velocity, tempo, ... whatever! It is like having a few CDs vs a real instrument. With the CDs you can listen over and over again to the same immutable songs; with the instrument you can play all the songs you want, with no limits. At least with a DAW, although inconvenient, you can change the parameters and re-render the track(s) to audio. With a Ketron arranger you can NOT send the arranger back to Ketron and have it reflashed with the new parameters. Can you? Would it be convenient? Is this a "HUGE leap forward in today's technology"? I do not think so. It sounds more like a two steps back from 1980's technology.
Additionally it is not clear how many audio patterns you have (I think this is intentional, not to scare potential buyers). In a midi based arranger you have not less than 20 chord shapes x 12 keys x 3 inversions x 4 variations x 8 parts x 500 styles x 1000 sounds x countless effects x all the tweaks you want apply to each parameter. You can make all the multiplications and have an idea. How many choices do you have with Ketron audio tracks?
And even worse, if I am playing a C chord (C + E + G) and then I play (G + C + E) do I hear something happening or not? And then if a play (G# + C + E) is there something happening or not? If I change the tempo from 100 bpm to 50 bpm or 150 bpm what happens? If I want to experiment with more/less distortion to the guitar? If I want a chorused clean guitar (+ delay) instead of a distorted one?
Every midi based arranger can easily cope with all this, I would like to HEAR the audio output of a Ketron arranger (while featuring the advertised audio tracks) in these basic scenarios.
I have the impression that you have misunderstood a few things. Event, like all Ketron arrangers, does not remove midi. Yes, the company gives more emphasis for Audio Styles but that doesn't mean the midi is done away with. I would say the opposite. As a user and professional style producer, I have experience and have instruments from all three remaining arranger companies and I have the models available: Yamaha Genos, Ketron Audya, SD9, SD1, Korg Pa3x, and I have enough experience in the new Pa5x I had it for a long time on trial from a known e-shop. Ketron especially with the new Event combines two worlds (audio and midi) in a very simple way that even a user with very little experience can build his own Midi or Audio or a combination of the two with the system that exists from Audya and is called STYLE MODELING. It's probably the most exciting idea I've come across in recent years, and I'm discovering more and more that there are a lot of people who have no idea of its existence and of the masterful and simple way it works. But since you are talking about midi, I will also tell you my reasoning. I would agree with your spirit about the editability that an absolute midi arranger provides. But you will allow me to say that in its entirety this only applies to of her arrangers Korg & Ketron. Surely you're terribly impressed that I'm leaving Yamaha out? Yes. You didn't read wrong. I'm leaving Yamaha out even though I know their midi style file of Yamaha (SFF1, SFF2) is a very feature rich midi style file. So really. Have you ever tried on a Yamaha arranger (as I see your item is a Yamaha) to build a style (from scratch) just to see what difficulties you would run into? I don't know about you but I found it in front of me and I didn't believe that there were such stupid restrictions from the company. And I will be more specific.
1) Have you ever tried to build a style either in a daw or onboard which you can record Sustain messages? What could be simpler and more normal than that? Even if we records this very important message of expression it will be erased when we convert it to .STY the Sustain message will be erased.
2) Have you tried in a style to change an octave of a sound in a Yamaha Arranger? Please try it. If you find a way to do it (without possibly the help of some third party software) tell me and I'll find out.
3) Have you ever tried making different version chords in Intro, End, etc.? Try it and if you find any way (outside of third party software again) or if you find an easy way as it happens in Korg & Ketron please tell me so I can get to know it too.
4) Have you ever tried editing (on board) a factory style? It's simply forbidden because the only option we have is to delete the channel.
5) Have you ever tried without having to go into the style creator to change a drum sound or change volumes, pans, effects, etc. while the style is actually playing?
6) Have you ever tried creating a style with a different signature value or a different tempo on each beat directly back into the instrument with absolutely no help from third party software?
So do you know that all this and much more is also provided in Ketron's cheapest model? And since you're talking about midi. Find me a company that provides Compress Velocity directly from the mixer? Are there any companies? Yes, and his name is Ketron.
And since we're talking about midi again, do you know any companies that just copy/paste a midi file (with a single phrase track chanel ) on Modeling Folder can we just select it in any midi channel of the style we want and without a trace of processing it will play and follow the style as if it were an integral part of the style? Yes, and his name is Ketron.
Can you tell me of a company that provides you with thousands of ready-made midi-style phrases (Piano, Guitar, Synth Arpeggios, Strings, Synth Pads and too more) that you can open individually on any style channel (without any edit) you wish, with the possibility of a completely separate selection for each Variation? I will tell you a company that can and does this. Yes, and his name is Ketron.
Can you find me a company that has a completely different mix, different sounds (midi and audio) with different settings in each variation even in the effects, even in the Midi Drums settings dirrectly from mixer? Yes, I know, and it is also called Ketron. Hmmm not bad at all I would say Ketron also in midi. And where to see what's coming with the Event again in the midi. For now, of course, I cannot say anything more about the Event, but we will say that when there is an official announcement. And what I haven't said about the midi possibilities on Ketron are really still too many and at some point I have to go into the studio because I have a lot of work waiting for me. Finally, I would like to make a comment regarding the concerns you raised with the Audio. So the Event brings something really new and wonderful which will be a wonderful complement to the midi and believe me it will take the creativity to other levels. Of course, everything has its positives and negatives. Ketron, however, in a really wonderful way, leaves the user in absolute freedom to be in control and choose in a really ridiculously easy way what to do. I don't want to take the discussion elsewhere and I'm not changing the subject, but I see that many of you have the impression that Ketron only provides audio and that the midi (suffers). But one more thing. You are talking about the fact of the deviation +- of the tempo. You are not wrong that obviously the results (in audio) of such a deviation will be disastrous. However.. Sorry, but why should I lower a style from 100 to 50? In the 32 years I've been working exclusively with arrangers, I've never had to do this because, for example, a samba styles with orgiginal tempo100bpm if I play it at 50bpm then it just won't be a Samba anymore but something different. if I insist on this it goes to say that I have selected the wrong style. This is my opinion. I would therefore suggest that we do not rush to condemn something when we probably do not know the depth of the facts. All this always with a friendly attitude and respecting every point of view.
Edited by Sokratis 1974 (10/07/2212:58 AM)
_________________________
Style Producer Ketron Event, Ketron Audya 76, Audya 5, SD9, SD1,Yamaha Genos, Korg Pa3x, microarranger, Roland Fantom G6, V-Synth XT, XV-5080, SH201, D-50, Novation KS4, Dave Smith Evolver
#506734 - 10/07/2212:49 AMRe: The new KETRON EVENT Workstation ... it's coming.
[Re: Sokratis 1974]
Ketron_AJ Moderator
Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3600
Loc: Middletown, DE
Originally Posted By Sokratis 1974
Originally Posted By groovyband.live
Originally Posted By Ketron_AJ
So if you have a keyboard that can play 6 audio tracks that has 128 notes assigned to Midi playback, that is a HUGE leap forward in today's technology, especially when it can play that AS AN ARRANGER in conjunction with any style (chord changes in real-time, tempo changes in real-time), a feature no PSR to date can do effortlessly, and so while the technology in many Midi Based Arranger may be outdated, those in the Hybrid Arrangers are just beginning to show their "strengths" and yes, weaknesses too.
Playing pre-recorded audio tracks is computationally the LEAST EXPENSIVE operation you can do with audio. Every DAW allows you to render to audio every track in order to reduce CPU load and hence let your computer play more tracks than it would otherwise be possible. This of course has huge downsides (and is therefore a last resort decision when you run out of better options). When you lose the midi to audio real time computation, you are stuck with a fixed outcome you cannot anymore modify, neither in real time, nor once for all at the beginning. You cannot change the patch, the sound parameters (filter, ADSR, .....), effects, note velocity, tempo, ... whatever! It is like having a few CDs vs a real instrument. With the CDs you can listen over and over again to the same immutable songs; with the instrument you can play all the songs you want, with no limits. At least with a DAW, although inconvenient, you can change the parameters and re-render the track(s) to audio. With a Ketron arranger you can NOT send the arranger back to Ketron and have it reflashed with the new parameters. Can you? Would it be convenient? Is this a "HUGE leap forward in today's technology"? I do not think so. It sounds more like a two steps back from 1980's technology.
Additionally it is not clear how many audio patterns you have (I think this is intentional, not to scare potential buyers). In a midi based arranger you have not less than 20 chord shapes x 12 keys x 3 inversions x 4 variations x 8 parts x 500 styles x 1000 sounds x countless effects x all the tweaks you want apply to each parameter. You can make all the multiplications and have an idea. How many choices do you have with Ketron audio tracks?
And even worse, if I am playing a C chord (C + E + G) and then I play (G + C + E) do I hear something happening or not? And then if a play (G# + C + E) is there something happening or not? If I change the tempo from 100 bpm to 50 bpm or 150 bpm what happens? If I want to experiment with more/less distortion to the guitar? If I want a chorused clean guitar (+ delay) instead of a distorted one?
Every midi based arranger can easily cope with all this, I would like to HEAR the audio output of a Ketron arranger (while featuring the advertised audio tracks) in these basic scenarios.
I have the impression that you have misunderstood a few things. Event, like all Ketron arrangers, does not remove midi. Yes, the company gives more emphasis for Audio Styles but that doesn't mean the midi is done away with. I would say the opposite. As a user and professional style producer, I have experience and have instruments from all three remaining arranger companies and I have the models available: Yamaha Genos, Ketron Audya, SD9, SD1, Korg Pa3x, and I have enough experience in the new Pa5x I had it for a long time on trial from a known e-shop. Ketron especially with the new Event combines two worlds (audio and midi) in a very simple way that even a user with very little experience can build his own Midi or Audio or a combination of the two with the system that exists from Audya and is called STYLE MODELING. It's probably the most exciting idea I've come across in recent years, and I'm discovering more and more that there are a lot of people who have no idea of its existence and of the masterful and simple way it works. But since you are talking about midi, I will also tell you my reasoning. I would agree with your spirit about the editability that an absolute midi arranger provides. But you will allow me to say that in its entirety this only applies to of her arrangers Korg & Ketron. Surely you're terribly impressed that I'm leaving Yamaha out? Yes. You didn't read wrong. I'm leaving Yamaha out even though I know their midi style file of Yamaha (SFF1, SFF2) is a very feature rich midi style file. So really. Have you ever tried on a Yamaha arranger (as I see your item is a Yamaha) to build a style (from scratch) just to see what difficulties you would run into? I don't know about you but I found it in front of me and I didn't believe that there were such stupid restrictions from the company. And I will be more specific.
1) Have you ever tried to build a style either in a daw or onboard which you can record Sustain messages? What could be simpler and more normal than that? And Yamaha even records it even if we record this very important means of expression it will be erased when we convert it to .STY the Sustain message will be erased.
2) Have you tried in a style to change an octave of a sound in a Yamaha Arranger? Please try it. If you find a way to do it (without possibly the help of some third party software) tell me and I'll find out.
3) Have you ever tried making different version chords in Intro, End, etc.? Try it and if you find any way (outside of third party software again) or if you find an easy way as it happens in Korg & Ketron please tell me so I can get to know it too.
4) Have you ever tried editing (on board) a factory style? It's simply forbidden because the only option we have is to delete the channel.
5) Have you ever tried without having to go into the style creator to change a drum sound or change volumes, pans, effects, etc. while the style is actually playing?
6) Have you ever tried creating a style with a different signature value or a different tempo on each beat directly back into the instrument with absolutely no help from third party software?
So do you know that all this and much more is also provided in Ketron's cheapest model? And since you're talking about midi. Find me a company that provides Compress Velocity directly from the mixer? Are there any companies? Yes, and his name is Ketron.
And since we're talking about midi again, do you know any companies that just copy/paste a midi file (with a single phrase track chanel ) on Modeling Folder can we just select it in any midi channel of the style we want and without a trace of processing it will play and follow the style as if it were an integral part of the style? Yes, and his name is Ketron.
Can you tell me of a company that provides you with thousands of ready-made midi-style phrases (Piano, Guitar, Synth Arpeggios, Strings, Synth Pads and too more) that you can open individually on any style channel (without any edit) you wish, with the possibility of a completely separate selection for each Variation? I will tell you a company that can and does this. Yes, and his name is Ketron.
Can you find me a company that has a completely different mix, different sounds (midi and audio) with different settings in each variation even in the effects, even in the Midi Drums settings? Yes, I know, and it is also called Ketron. Hmmm not bad at all I would say Ketron also in midi. And where to see what's coming with the Event again in the midi. For now, of course, I cannot say anything more about the Event, but we will say that when there is an official announcement. And what I haven't said about the midi possibilities on Ketron are really still too many and at some point I have to go into the studio because I have a lot of work waiting for me. Finally, I would like to make a comment regarding the concerns you raised with the Audio. So the Event brings something really new and wonderful which will be a wonderful complement to the midi and believe me it will take the creativity to other levels. Of course, everything has its positives and negatives. Ketron, however, in a really wonderful way, leaves the user in absolute freedom to be in control and choose in a really ridiculously easy way what to do. I don't want to take the discussion elsewhere and I'm not changing the subject, but I see that many of you have the impression that Ketron only provides audio and that the midi (suffers). But one more thing. You are talking about the fact of the deviation +- of the tempo. You are not wrong that obviously the results (in audio) of such a deviation will be disastrous. Sorry, but why should I lower a style from 100 to 50? In the 32 years I've been working exclusively with arrangers, I've never had to do this because, for example, a samba styles with orgiginal tempo100bpm if I play it at 50bpm then it just won't be a Samba anymore but something different. if I insist on this it goes to say that I have selected the wrong style. This is my opinion. I would therefore suggest that we do not rush to condemn something when we probably do not know the depth of the facts. All this always with a friendly attitude and respecting every point of view.
I could not have said this any better. Thanks Sokratis 1974. Now, onto making good music!
To a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Sokratis creates styles. For a living. Most of us don’t.
But nearly all of us have at one time or another tried using a slightly different sound in a style, change a Strat to a jazz guitar, an acoustic to a 12 string, a banjo to a mandolin. A rock kit to a jazz kit, a pop kit to a brushes kit. With most non-audio arrangers this is easy. And utterly IMPOSSIBLE with an audio loop.
Some of us had a song to play that needed a slightly different kick drum pattern. It doesn’t take long to move the hit to the better position. Nowhere near as long as creating a style from scratch! Again, impossible with a loop.
As I alluded to earlier, claiming that you can always substitute a MIDI guitar pattern for the audio one you want to change will OF COURSE result in an inferior sound. If it didn’t, there would be no benefit to the loops in the first place.
We’ve had audio loop arrangers for over a decade. They have still failed to address the issue of limited chord choice and ineditability. It’s hard baked into the process.
Don’t get me wrong, if you’re the kind of player that wouldn’t know how to finger a diminished chord or an augmented in the first place and want something that sounds amazing, Ketron seems right up your street. But what bothers me is, this thing seems designed and priced for people with a high degree of technical skill, a desire to use loops and the knowledge of how to do so. A true ‘musician’s musician’ tool. A highly technical, advanced arranger with true 21st century features. Designed and priced for the advanced professional and home player.
But without the ability to use chords that the majority of ‘musicians’ musicians’ would want and need from time to time. That’s a fundamental issue that not even the beginner player would accept in a traditional MIDI arranger, but somehow Ketron want us to accept in something that is TOTL priced. If a Genos or a PA5X couldn’t play extended chords, how many customers would buy one?
Ketron is gambling on ‘most of them’. I have my doubts…
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
#506743 - 10/07/2201:25 PMRe: The new KETRON EVENT Workstation ... it's coming.
[Re: Diki]
Ketron_AJ Moderator
Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3600
Loc: Middletown, DE
Originally Posted By Diki
To a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Sokratis creates styles. For a living. Most of us don’t.
But nearly all of us have at one time or another tried using a slightly different sound in a style, change a Strat to a jazz guitar, an acoustic to a 12 string, a banjo to a mandolin. A rock kit to a jazz kit, a pop kit to a brushes kit. With most non-audio arrangers this is easy. And utterly IMPOSSIBLE with an audio loop.
Some of us had a song to play that needed a slightly different kick drum pattern. It doesn’t take long to move the hit to the better position. Nowhere near as long as creating a style from scratch! Again, impossible with a loop.
As I alluded to earlier, claiming that you can always substitute a MIDI guitar pattern for the audio one you want to change will OF COURSE result in an inferior sound. If it didn’t, there would be no benefit to the loops in the first place.
We’ve had audio loop arrangers for over a decade. They have still failed to address the issue of limited chord choice and ineditability. It’s hard baked into the process.
Don’t get me wrong, if you’re the kind of player that wouldn’t know how to finger a diminished chord or an augmented in the first place and want something that sounds amazing, Ketron seems right up your street. But what bothers me is, this thing seems designed and priced for people with a high degree of technical skill, a desire to use loops and the knowledge of how to do so. A true ‘musician’s musician’ tool. A highly technical, advanced arranger with true 21st century features. Designed and priced for the advanced professional and home player.
But without the ability to use chords that the majority of ‘musicians’ musicians’ would want and need from time to time. That’s a fundamental issue that not even the beginner player would accept in a traditional MIDI arranger, but somehow Ketron want us to accept in something that is TOTL priced. If a Genos or a PA5X couldn’t play extended chords, how many customers would buy one?
Ketron is gambling on ‘most of them’. I have my doubts…
I want to break this down again so the average reader reading this does not leave with the impression that an AUDIO Live Arranger such as the forthcoming EVENT is limited to playing/recognizing limited chords.
"But without the ability to use chords that the majority of ‘musicians’ musicians’ would want and need from time to time"
In the case of the AUDYA and SD9 Pro, there was no room to create nor input new Audio Guitars (or other Audio) that can respond to chord changes, and so the above statement is valid for those units only. This has been vastly updated in the EVENT such that the limit is only due to lack of KETRON, 3rd Party Style creators, or you the user inputting the chord variations. I know for a fact that with EVENT, KETRON is going more than just chord tonalities of major, minor and 7th. Again to clarify, the EVENT is capable of responding to ALL chord changes within ALL keys. The limitation is populating all the chord tables with content which either KETRON or you can do (in the case of AUDYA and SD9, only KETRON and some of their engineers like us could) and thus these units did have the limitation the above writeup is alluding to.
#506744 - 10/07/2201:30 PMRe: The new KETRON EVENT Workstation ... it's coming.
[Re: rikkisbears]
Ketron_AJ Moderator
Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3600
Loc: Middletown, DE
Originally Posted By rikkisbears
Sadly , couldn’t buy a Ketron, here in Aust. even if I wanted . Had an sd1, a long time back, from there it went downhill. I think the only store that sells them over here , has a Ketron Audya 4 module and a Ketron sd3 for sale on their website, as far as I can tell, that’s it. Guessing the brand is just not popular enough over here.🥲
Reach out to us diretly at Ajaminc@Gmail.com We have a few customers in AUSI land whom we have worked with on KETRON products up to the latest KETRON SD9 Pro AjamSonic. We can help get a unit to you if interested.
To a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Sokratis creates styles. For a living. Most of us don’t.
But nearly all of us have at one time or another tried using a slightly different sound in a style, change a Strat to a jazz guitar, an acoustic to a 12 string, a banjo to a mandolin. A rock kit to a jazz kit, a pop kit to a brushes kit. With most non-audio arrangers this is easy. And utterly IMPOSSIBLE with an audio loop.
Some of us had a song to play that needed a slightly different kick drum pattern. It doesn’t take long to move the hit to the better position. Nowhere near as long as creating a style from scratch! Again, impossible with a loop.
As I alluded to earlier, claiming that you can always substitute a MIDI guitar pattern for the audio one you want to change will OF COURSE result in an inferior sound. If it didn’t, there would be no benefit to the loops in the first place.
We’ve had audio loop arrangers for over a decade. They have still failed to address the issue of limited chord choice and ineditability. It’s hard baked into the process.
Don’t get me wrong, if you’re the kind of player that wouldn’t know how to finger a diminished chord or an augmented in the first place and want something that sounds amazing, Ketron seems right up your street. But what bothers me is, this thing seems designed and priced for people with a high degree of technical skill, a desire to use loops and the knowledge of how to do so. A true ‘musician’s musician’ tool. A highly technical, advanced arranger with true 21st century features. Designed and priced for the advanced professional and home player.
But without the ability to use chords that the majority of ‘musicians’ musicians’ would want and need from time to time. That’s a fundamental issue that not even the beginner player would accept in a traditional MIDI arranger, but somehow Ketron want us to accept in something that is TOTL priced. If a Genos or a PA5X couldn’t play extended chords, how many customers would buy one?
Ketron is gambling on ‘most of them’. I have my doubts…
Dear Diki. I guess I should say that again. The audio part in all Ketron models is just a supplement to the midi which, as I have explained quite analytically, is also doing great in this area. In Event one above this (the audio) expands to a very large extent since it also has an audio bass (Real Bass) which if we want to exchange it with the midi bass as well as there is also an audio chord (Real Chord) which is completely new and has nothing to do with the particularly limited and old Live Guitar of Audya and SD9. Also, as Ketron has always done, here too available to the user a really huge library of new audio riffs that respond to particularly extended chords where through the Style Modeling we can have a different real chord in each Variation of course and Intro, Ending. And let's also not forget that now enough people know how to handle computers and consequently DAW (Cubase, Logic, Reaper etc) so he knows how to handle and vst. It is therefore very easy to create our own audio parts (guitars and whatnot) which in conjunction with the midi really makes the difference. And for you to understand I am attaching a small video excerpt from a mainly experimental Intro audio part I made which will probably eventually be completed as a full audio style for the Event. https://app.box.com/s/ko02ytdoe39sfn9efggn4flognaj30kp
So see what these (supplementary) audio channels can do which can (accommodate) anything that crosses our mind. The only limitation is our imagination. Of course this takes time and effort but the tools are here and Ketron now generously provides them to the user from day one. From then on it is up to each user to create whatever they want as long as they want. Personally, I consider it a particularly important development and I don't think it will not be long for other companies to imitate it. Besides, let's not forget that Yamaha also clearly hinted with those three mysterious videos with the Berlin Philharmonic and Alex Christensen from the Genos campaign that something like this was planned but never materialized until now at Genos. https://youtu.be/jHdbmEGyyNg
At least I (and perhaps many others) have not made any sense of the company's advertisement at the time in the videos it launched the campaign with the title: Genos in action. But it doesn't make any sense because there is neither any style of Genos in this video (if we assume that something like that was implied) nor any sound that would refer you to Genos and don't forget that I also have 4 years now the Genos thing that gives me the right to know too well (every bit of it). I am attaching 1 of those three mysterious videos and anyone who has the patience to look through the comments will see the wondering comments of Yamaha users. I distinctly remember a comment saying: I don't understand... I was on Yamaha's website and I saw the video that says (Genos in action) and I see all these absolutely amazing results. What does this have to do with Genos.. Further down there is still the discussion that has started that possibly Genos brings a new technology with Audio phrases.. In the end there was never any answer.. Who knows what happened. And also I don't know how many of you know that Yamaha has registered since March 2012 (and this continued with further additions to the patent until the end of 2015) a special patent for this purpose. That is, for automatic audio accompaniment. I happen to have in my possession the full detailed text of the patent which is not hidden, it is listed on a special site but I would not like to share the link to avoid confusion.
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Style Producer Ketron Event, Ketron Audya 76, Audya 5, SD9, SD1,Yamaha Genos, Korg Pa3x, microarranger, Roland Fantom G6, V-Synth XT, XV-5080, SH201, D-50, Novation KS4, Dave Smith Evolver
I have already alluded to how in the past Ketron extends the range of chord choices beyond the actually recorded ones.
If the chord you want is an extension of a chord already recorded, like a C6, C9 Cadd2, Cmin(maj7th) etc. the solution in the past has been to add a MIDI guitar note or two to the recorded pattern. So you don’t have what a guitarist would play for the C6, you have what a guitarist would play for a plain Cmaj with an extra note overdubbed. A 7 string guitar playing a chord shape that wouldn’t be played on a 7 string guitar…
If the chord is a chord that can’t be derived from the basic changes recorded, a diminished, an augmented, a half diminished etc, an entire MIDI guitar pattern is substituted, with a jump in sound and quality (because if the MIDI guitar part sounded as good as the audio loop, why use the loops at all?).
I have NEVER said the Ketron’s can’t play these chords at all. I have simply said that when you do, you will hear a noticeable change from the basic audio loop.
Now, if Ketron have managed to pull off a real-time Celemony Melodyne process (which actually CAN change notes within an audio chord using a computer) now’s the time to bring it up. Actually, if this had been achieved, I am sure that this would have been mentioned. To my knowledge, no one including Celemony themselves have managed to pull this off as a real-time effect. We’ve probably got a couple more CPU generations to go before this might be possible. And probably even longer before it trickles down to the RISC chips that power arrangers.
So, to reiterate (not that I believe that AJ didn’t understand in the first place, he’s just naturally trying to put a positive spin on the product he’s selling) I am NOT saying the Ketron can’t play any chord you throw at it.
I am saying that when you ask for a chord beyond the basic selection recorded as loops, you ARE going to hear something a bit jarring, and something that isn’t what a guitarist could or would play.
And I’m pretty sure that most everyone here understood that in the first place…
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
The upcoming new TOTL Ketron arranger (probably retailing at 4÷5 k€) is basically the old well known midi arranger + some not well specified audio loops capabilities built-in.
The midi part has roughly the same specification of a PSR 1500 of 2004, or, speaking of current day arrangers, a Yamaha SX 600 (~750€).
The audio part consists of a few loops (how many not specified) that can only play at a fixed tempo and that are provided only for a few simple chords (not specified). It is safe to assume that chord inversions are NOT played by audio loops, as well as many common chords found in most printed scores (such as augmented, diminished, M7, 6, and all their combinations). Of course the instrument is fixed, as well as the effect(s) applied (backed in during the recording). If you play a chord not available in audio probably the arranger will substitute it with a midi pattern, that will be (totally/noticeably) different from the audio loop (groove, instrument, effect), probably leading to a poor/unacceptable result. For those willing to hire a band, a recording studio, a composer, and have plenty of time to spare, there is the possibility to develop their own audio styles (Ketron did not bother to make).
This is how I understood the whole new product being launched. For me the audio part is totally useless, and considering the remaining midi part (as well as the much greater availability of midi styles), probably a humble SX 600 (same firmware as Genos) is much more bang for the buck! YMMV.
And by the way, an SX 600 can also be greatly improved by pairing it with our software arranger (free demo available) .....
Sorry Groovyband, but you need to be more accurate when trying to put a competitor’s product down. The Ketron is quite capable of changing tempo on the audio loop. Not perhaps as much as a MIDI only arranger, but AJ and Sokratis are correct in saying tempo is adjustable. Probably as much as is likely to be practical (most MIDI styles sound stupid at more than 25% up or down from nominal as well). And I would like to hear why the comparison to a decades old arranger at the MUDI end of things..?
In fairness, ALL hardware arrangers are stuck in pretty much the same 4 Variations, 4-6 fills, 3-4 Intros and endings paradigm, including Genos and PA4X (although PA5x’s ‘two styles at a time, when finally fixed, offers the prospect of double this). You want to not sound petty, acknowledge that the MIDI end of things is on a par with the latest arrangers, minus the guitar mode capabilities.
And while 4 effect seems a bit light, it was all a PA4X had until the new model. And more than a PSRS950. So, you want to make disparaging comparisons, there’s no need to use a decades old model. The new Ketron’s MIDI arranger is comparable to arrangers only a year or two old.
I would prefer if acknowledged vendors don’t spam each other’s threads, you certainly don’t want AJ coming over to your threads and pointing out the advantages their new arranger may have over your product. Let’s keep it civil.
Thank you.
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
Thank you very much dear Diki for your fair intervention. I would just like to say that I personally have learned in my life not to condemn something that I have no knowledge of. But when the time is right (and I now have the right and freedom) I will say and analyze things. From then on it is up to everyone to judge and utilize.
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Style Producer Ketron Event, Ketron Audya 76, Audya 5, SD9, SD1,Yamaha Genos, Korg Pa3x, microarranger, Roland Fantom G6, V-Synth XT, XV-5080, SH201, D-50, Novation KS4, Dave Smith Evolver
We have had audio loops in arrangers for well over ten years. We have also had them as non-realtime elements in BIAB and general audio production for years. Lionstracs was the first to do more than drums if I remember rightly.
There’s only one NEW solution to changing notes within a chord in an audio loop, that’s Melodyne. Which isn’t real-time, and isn’t obviously part of the Event (or it would have been the first thing AJ and you would have said). There is no getting around the obvious, and I certainly don’t need to sit down at an Event (which in my area means basically never, there's no Ketron dealers anywhere near me!) to know, if you haven’t recorded a guitarist playing a diminished chord, there is no way whatsoever that you will still have a live guitarist playing that pattern in the style.
You have the chord choices that Ketron recorded the guitarist playing, however many that may be for each style. And that’s it. Period. No ‘you’ve got to try one’ BS.
It’s quite simple. If you currently have an Event sitting in front of you, solo the guitar part, and play a chord progression like C - Eb(dim) - Dm7 - G+7. Post the recording. If you want to claim this is not an issue, let’s hear it…
The proof is in the pudding.
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
We have had audio loops in arrangers for well over ten years. We have also had them as non-realtime elements in BIAB and general audio production for years. Lionstracs was the first to do more than drums if I remember rightly.
There’s only one NEW solution to changing notes within a chord in an audio loop, that’s Melodyne. Which isn’t real-time, and isn’t obviously part of the Event (or it would have been the first thing AJ and you would have said). There is no getting around the obvious, and I certainly don’t need to sit down at an Event (which in my area means basically never, there's no Ketron dealers anywhere near me!) to know, if you haven’t recorded a guitarist playing a diminished chord, there is no way whatsoever that you will still have a live guitarist playing that pattern in the style.
You have the chord choices that Ketron recorded the guitarist playing, however many that may be for each style. And that’s it. Period. No ‘you’ve got to try one’ BS.
It’s quite simple. If you currently have an Event sitting in front of you, solo the guitar part, and play a chord progression like C - Eb(dim) - Dm7 - G+7. Post the recording. If you want to claim this is not an issue, let’s hear it…
The proof is in the pudding.
Diki. Now I don't have the right to do that. But when I can (with the official announcement) I promise to do what you ask.
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Style Producer Ketron Event, Ketron Audya 76, Audya 5, SD9, SD1,Yamaha Genos, Korg Pa3x, microarranger, Roland Fantom G6, V-Synth XT, XV-5080, SH201, D-50, Novation KS4, Dave Smith Evolver
This is what I hate about teaser announcements. The product is finalized, the videos are out by Ketron themselves, but somehow those in actual possession of an early model aren’t allowed to do more than make ‘wait until you try one yourself’ excuses for issues that have plagued loop based arrangers for years.
To be quite honest, I have already heard some loop weirdness in Ketron’s own demos. Listen to this, and tell me nothing’s wrong as early as 12sec in… https://youtu.be/gVWwrOSgvlY
Again at 0:24 the bassline and guitar part don’t agree, at 0:43 the player has to play the wrong chords, presumably because the right one (an 11th) is unavailable (if he plays something as obviously recognizable as The Girl from Ipenema, he had better play the correct changes!). And on, and on.
And this is Ketron’s OFFICIAL launch video… and the issues with chord choices are already obvious.
While I understand your enthusiasm for the product, and I understand there are many forward looking features, it seems to me that a loop arranger (unless you spend a Herculean amount of time creating song specific loops) is something you play along WITH, not something that plays along with YOU…
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
Sorry Groovyband, but you need to be more accurate when trying to put a competitor’s product down.
I have only stated some facts, and it seems that they were fairly accurate since nobody, not even the Ketron guys, corrected me. Where informations were missing I asked for clarifications, that for most part never came, probably because being explicit about the likely limitations would have undermined the product.
Originally Posted By Diki
The Ketron is quite capable of changing tempo on the audio loop. Not perhaps as much as a MIDI only arranger, but AJ and Sokratis are correct in saying tempo is adjustable.
Sure it can be adjusted. After all you can listen to a 33 rpm record to 45 rpm, or you can load in a DAW a 44.1 kHz sample rate wave and replay it pretending it is 96 kHz. We all know how the result will look like, and Sokratis too aknowledged this obvious fact. When I asked what happened when changing the tempo from 50 to 150 bpm I already knew the answer. And Ketron too was well aware. How much degradation you are willing to accept is a personal matter of taste. Everybody has its own.
Originally Posted By Diki
And while 4 effect seems a bit light, it was all a PA4X had until the new model. And more than a PSRS950. So, you want to make disparaging comparisons, there’s no need to use a decades old model. The new Ketron’s MIDI arranger is comparable to arrangers only a year or two old.
The PSR950 has 4 insert DSPs (and 1 of them can also be used as 3rd send), as it had the PSR 1500 in 2004. The fact that many arrangers, including the upcoming Ketron flagship, cannot do better than a 20 years old mid level machine, or a today’s entry level machine (SX 600), is a fact that I already pointed out. Thank you for stating it once again (including also other aspects such us the number of intros, endings, variations).
Originally Posted By Diki
I would prefer if acknowledged vendors don’t spam each other’s threads, you certainly don’t want AJ coming over to your threads and pointing out the advantages their new arranger may have over your product. Let’s keep it civil.
Thank you.
I spammed nobody. I only stated facts nobody argued, asked polite questions and clarifications (for the most part ignored), and posted only 3 times (with short and coincise posts). Additionally I only mentioned our product once, with 3 words at the end of the last post in 5th page, and did NOT compare it with Ketron products. If you read again the whole thread you will notice that YOU posted many more times constantly criticizing the Ketron.
... see the mote in one's brother's eye but not the beam in one's own
Groovy, the difference is, I’m just a player, I’m not trying to sell my product to the members. And I don’t hate Ketron’s. I just feel that MIDI guitar modes like Korg, Yamaha (and once upon a time, Roland) have are the FAR better solution to better guitar parts than audio loops with a stripped down chord selection.
I’m not trying to put down Ketron (you are). I’m trying to influence them to change direction away from something that is a musical dead end. To help them. Not put them down. And there’s a ton of things to like about the Event. I’m just a bit fixated on the audio loops because it’s a dealbreaker for me (but not for players that aren’t that worried about the right chord).
Full specs on the EVENT haven’t made it out yet. But I’m sure when they do, there’ll be a fair bit in there that Groovyband can’t do. But I bet AJ has more class than to come to your threads and point them out. So let’s dial this back or I’m going to have to start ‘moderating’, okay?
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
As always, with audio loop backing, I want to hear it deals with more than basic maj min and 7ths.
Where’s the 6/9’s? Where’s the augmented chords? Where’s the open 5’s? Where’s the half diminished? Where’s the 7#9’s?
For it to impress professionals, shouldn’t it be able to play more than basic chords?
And sorry, but we have moved WAY past sampled saxes that tongue every note. Articulated at a minimum, modeled for true ‘pro’ results.
I know these audio loop things impress when deliberately restricted to basic chords, but surely in these days of SSD’s and fast streaming, why can’t we have audio loops of more than three or four basic chords?
We dealt with this ages ago on the Audya Diki - we even had a shootout here on this very forum where I recorded chord sequences exactly as requested to prove that ALL playable chords are reproduced on Ketron using the Live Guitars. Someone then posted Yamaha versions to compare (I don't think it was you). In addition, I uploaded other tracks also using advanced chords.
There are certain unusual inversions that are physically impossible to play on a guitar. In this case midi guitars on the Audya are inserted, if so and the player doesn't like it, just use a different inversion. But discussing this is rather a moot point as the keyboard has not even been released! Maybe go back and find the recordings we did and then report back?
I remember the shootout, and I’ve already referred to the ‘solutions’ that were forced on it.
Extensions (add9, 6ths, 6/9’s, min(maj7)’s etc) are dealt with by adding those extra notes to the basic maj/min recording. You now have a guitar voicing that no guitarist can play, and a MIDI note mixed in with the audio recording. A 7 or 8 string guitar. Not very realistic!
Chords that aren’t recorded that cannot be derived from the audio loops are wholesale replaced by the MIDI guitar loop - diminished, augmented, half diminished, open fifths, sus4’s etc.. As pointed out earlier, either there’s a massive difference between the audio loop and the MIDI pattern, or there’s no advantage to the audio loop in the first place.
But the thing you are forgetting, Tonewheel, is that the Audya shootout was done probably ten years ago. The state of the art of MIDI guitar modes has advanced enormously since then, but no solution to wider chord choices for loops other than simply recording them in the first place exists now any more than when the Audya launched.
What IS disappointing is, as admitted by AJ at the start of the thread, the Event is actually capable of streaming a vast selection of chords in response to your input, far better than the Audya can. Technically, it is capable of addressing my criticisms. But for obvious cost reasons, Ketron simply have chosen to not bother including a FULL selection of chords for all styles. Which leaves them (and us) in the same situation we were in with the Audya.
Adding extra chords to existing styles will be close to impossible (not easy to find a guitarist that can match the style, guitar, tone and effects of the original and play indistinguishable from the other loops). And creating brand new styles will involve either the expense of studio time and session fees of a highly skilled guitarist, or considerable time and skill creating loops from a VSTi guitar program.
That the Event COULD have a full selection of chords but Ketron chose not to record them is, to be quite honest, far more disappointing than the Audya’s inability to stream them fast enough, so the workarounds were necessary and unavoidable. It kind of begs the question… why spend all that money allowing the Event to be capable of full audio chord selection, and then skimp at the end and not bother?
To my mind, it points to the obvious high cost of doing it. Or extreme laziness. I would hope it’s the former.
Yamaha and especially Korg’s current gen guitar modes are light years ahead of where they were at the Audya’s launch, and the state of VSTi guitar plug ins is way further on than that. Time waits for no man, especially in tech, and dragging out a ten year+ Old comparison to justify a contemporary problem is like arguing Nokia vs. Blackberry!
I have listened to every demo Ketron have done with the Event, and the problems are already more than obvious. You hear a LOT of passing chords and jazzy chords, but they are all in the pre-recorded intros and endings (so not responding to your input at all) and the few times they try it while the style briefly plays, you can hear the lack of chords.
Maybe it’s easy to fool people that don’t play guitar, and wouldn’t recognize a wrong chord or incorrect voicing, people that assume that what they are hearing is the style being played and not the pre-recorded sections, or maybe people that just want to believe the hype.
It doesn’t fool me. It doesn’t fool a lot of people (or Ketron would be the market leader).
If I were Ketron, and wanted to show that the issues from the Audya had been solved, that’s the FIRST thing I’d demo. I’d show a stripped down bass drum and guitar style, responding well to live chord input from a skilled player doing all the chord types that caused the issues in the Audya. But what we have is pre-recorded intros and endings and very little else of any serious challenge.
I truly wish things had improved. I was not impressed by the Audya’s handling of chords when it came out, but to learn that TECHNICALLY the Event could have a full chord selection but Ketron just couldn’t be bothered to record the loops is even worse.
I would be happy to listen to a comparison between the Event and a PA5x on soloed guitar parts playing extended chords. But I am not sure the Ketron apologists would. Seems like they’d prefer comparison to a 10 year old arranger. That would have been the PA3x and the Tyros4. Dinosaurs!
And don’t get me started about VSTi’s (too late!).
I’m sorry, but am I the ONLY one here hearing the issues with the Event’s demos? Should I really be the boy pointing out the Emperor’s clothes, or lack thereof? 😂
This is the 2020’s. We are in the age of modeled horns and strings that can fool professionals. We are in the age of guitar mode VSTi’s that can fool guitarists. And hoary old technologies are being touted to us as the latest thing because they think we are a bunch of easily fooled amateurs.
Perhaps we are…
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
this old and tired myth that Ketron arrangers can't handle complex chords has been beaten out by one or two people here since before my 12 year old granddaughter was born 😅😂🤣😆
The two sets of posts where the Audya was demonstrated playing complex chords seamlessly were the only ones Diki has ever been quiet on 😂- he must have been on vacation at that time😜. For all of us that listened to them, the subject was put to bed whilst we were still watching Space Shuttle landings.
I find it incredible that on the strength of a couple of short demos of a product not even released, there can be a substantial dossier on its imaginary shortfalls.
#506817 - 10/15/2201:25 AMRe: The new KETRON EVENT Workstation ... it's coming.
[Re: Ketron_AJ]
abacus
Senior Member
Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5385
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Everybody has their preferences so trying to convince someone that they should prefer something else (Because somebody else believes something else is better) is futile. (Each to his own) Unfortunately due to the pandemic the UK Ketron dealer is no more (Which means Bohm has also gone) as it was apparently no longer viable to keep, so I guess the UK will never be able to get live demos, and will have to rely on YouTube demos. (Unfortunately with the demos so far, the Event doesn’t give me the WOW! Factor that previous Ketrons did, but as it’s not out yet we will have to wait and see)
Bill
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English Riviera: Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).
Unfortunately due to the pandemic the UK Ketron dealer is no more (Which means Bohm has also gone) as it was apparently no longer viable to keep, so I guess the UK will never be able to get live demos, and will have to rely on YouTube demos.
This was a great loss indeed Bill. Trevor Brown has been a well-loved and trusted dealer since the 1980s and I know he really misses the shop too. Musicworld was always his hobby which is why he was well past retirement age, and he was never motivated by the financial aspects of the business. Hopefully Ketron UK will come up with some way of overcoming this. Certainly, Ketron instruments need more than a picture and a buy button on a website.
this old and tired myth that Ketron arrangers can't handle complex chords has been beaten out by one or two people here since before my 12 year old granddaughter was born 😅😂🤣😆
The two sets of posts where the Audya was demonstrated playing complex chords seamlessly were the only ones Diki has ever been quiet on 😂- he must have been on vacation at that time😜. For all of us that listened to them, the subject was put to bed whilst we were still watching Space Shuttle landings.
I find it incredible that on the strength of a couple of short demos of a product not even released, there can be a substantial dossier on its imaginary shortfalls.
Guess you didn’t read the previous post. Too long? Plus, one more time… NO ONE IS SAYING KETRON’S CAN’T HANDLE COMPLEX CHORDS. Just that they can’t do them indistinguishably from the recorded loops.
TLDR: I remember the shootout, and the solutions were EXACTLY as I described. Your definition of ‘seamlessly’ simply seems to be considerably looser than mine.
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
#506824 - 10/17/2208:17 AMRe: The new KETRON EVENT Workstation ... it's coming.
[Re: Ketron_AJ]
cgiles
Senior Member
Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Wow, Nigel could say it better than anyone. Here, he defines the classic TROLL. See anything you recognize?
2. Act overly critical
You join a chat and your only contribution to the collective discourse is to criticize comments, opinions or people. 3. Argue ad nauseum
You continue to argue a point well beyond any educational value for you or the audience to the point where your comments are simply repetitive rhetoric.
5. Present opinions as facts
You fervently argue subjects in which you have no real experience or subject matter expertise, yet present your point of view as fact.
7. Reject conflicting points of view
You publicly and loudly reject any opinion or fact that is not owned or shared by you, regardless of its validity or interest to the local audience or community at large.
8. Fan the flames in order to �win�
You refuse to �agree to disagree�, choosing to continue to bait your audience with questions and comments that fuels a continuing argument. You have to �win� every discussion as if was a game and will continue to argue even if the discussion moves on to other topics.
11. Love to beat a dead horse
You introduce topics you love to hate-on even when no one else is discussing them or when it�s not part of the group�s discussion topic, simply to fuel your need to criticize.
Just sayin'
chas
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"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]
As always, with audio loop backing, I want to hear it deals with more than basic maj min and 7ths.
Where’s the 6/9’s? Where’s the augmented chords? Where’s the open 5’s? Where’s the half diminished? Where’s the 7#9’s?
For it to impress professionals, shouldn’t it be able to play more than basic chords?
And sorry, but we have moved WAY past sampled saxes that tongue every note. Articulated at a minimum, modeled for true ‘pro’ results.
I know these audio loop things impress when deliberately restricted to basic chords, but surely in these days of SSD’s and fast streaming, why can’t we have audio loops of more than three or four basic chords?
With the EVENT, you the user can now create your own Live Guitar and audio arrangements so the sky is the limit.
I am sure once it is released and you purchase one, you will be able to dig in deeper and experiment to the fullest with how it handles these other chord variants [Where’s the 6/9’s? Where’s the augmented chords? Where’s the open 5’s? Where’s the half diminished? Where’s the 7#9’s?] which if missing you can produce for your styles and taste of music. That is the beauty of this keyboard - the power is in the hands of the end user to create whatever they want.
why can’t we have audio loops of more than three or four basic chords?We can. You can have up to 1024 Audio Guitar chord wave-files per style assigned to a style so if what is provided isn't enough, you can add even more chord variations to the table.
This is the start of it all. Who’s trolling who?
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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from now on, on some forums, I make a screen copy... in case... time will tell imagine some people you know having more power...luckily God knows best! Take it easy ... and funny!
Hello. So here's a proof that this time Ketron didn't limit himself to three basic chords with the rest supplemented by midi riffs (like Live Gtr) but has gone much further with the new Real Chord.
Edited by Sokratis 1974 (10/24/2212:03 AM)
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Style Producer Ketron Event, Ketron Audya 76, Audya 5, SD9, SD1,Yamaha Genos, Korg Pa3x, microarranger, Roland Fantom G6, V-Synth XT, XV-5080, SH201, D-50, Novation KS4, Dave Smith Evolver
#506879 - 10/24/2201:21 PMRe: The new KETRON EVENT Workstation ... it's coming.
[Re: Diki]
Ketron_AJ Moderator
Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3600
Loc: Middletown, DE
Originally Posted By Diki
As always, with audio loop backing, I want to hear it deals with more than basic maj min and 7ths.
Where’s the 6/9’s? Where’s the augmented chords? Where’s the open 5’s? Where’s the half diminished? Where’s the 7#9’s?
For it to impress professionals, shouldn’t it be able to play more than basic chords?
And sorry, but we have moved WAY past sampled saxes that tongue every note. Articulated at a minimum, modeled for true ‘pro’ results.
I know these audio loop things impress when deliberately restricted to basic chords, but surely in these days of SSD’s and fast streaming, why can’t we have audio loops of more than three or four basic chords?
As always, with audio loop backing, I want to hear it deals with more than basic maj min and 7ths.
Where’s the 6/9’s? Where’s the augmented chords? Where’s the open 5’s? Where’s the half diminished? Where’s the 7#9’s?
For it to impress professionals, shouldn’t it be able to play more than basic chords?
And sorry, but we have moved WAY past sampled saxes that tongue every note. Articulated at a minimum, modeled for true ‘pro’ results.
I know these audio loop things impress when deliberately restricted to basic chords, but surely in these days of SSD’s and fast streaming, why can’t we have audio loops of more than three or four basic chords?
Now, wouldn’t that have been easier than this whole brouhaha?
Now all we need is a list of what styles offer what chords, and you’ve answered my question.
By the way, nice sounding guitars, very well recorded.
As I said before, I’m not a Ketron hater. I’d just like an honest answer to an honest question.
If we’re being more open about things, is there any chance of hearing how the same chord types are dealt with by a style that DOESN’t have a full selection of loops for all those chords?
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
This workstation sounds great. I've owned an Audya in the passed, but I just want to know from what I undertand it, it uses a touch screen for changing sounds and styles, correct? If so, too bad that there is no voice guide for the blind like Yamaha has on Genos. Or, is it possible to change sounds or styles without using the touch screen? Many thanks!
This workstation sounds great. I've owned an Audya in the passed, but I just want to know from what I undertand it, it uses a touch screen for changing sounds and styles, correct? If so, too bad that there is no voice guide for the blind like Yamaha has on Genos. Or, is it possible to change sounds or styles without using the touch screen? Many thanks!
Hello Christian. I noted from the specifications, it is possible to use an external touch screen with the EVENT. That would be ideal for those who are partially/poor sighted and struggle with a smaller screen. I also wondered if used in conjunction with something like an OrCam MyEye, the larger screen might make it possible to access more instrument features for those who are blind?
AJ, This sounds great. But, could you please provide me with some info here: Are there dedicated buttons for sound and style categories, or, are the touch screen used for that? I am thinking about the upcoming remote control app, maybe I will be able to use that to control the instrument from my smart phone as a blind user. Will be very interesting. I hope I'll be able to try out the instrument over hee before I make a purchase, since I want to be able to take advantage of most features. Many thanks!
AJ, This sounds great. But, could you please provide me with some info here: Are there dedicated buttons for sound and style categories, or, are the touch screen used for that? I am thinking about the upcoming remote control app, maybe I will be able to use that to control the instrument from my smart phone as a blind user. Will be very interesting. I hope I'll be able to try out the instrument over hee before I make a purchase, since I want to be able to take advantage of most features. Many thanks!
Hello. I can give you an answer. Yes. Are there dedicated buttons for sound and style to open the categories, but the selection is from Touch Screen.
Edited by Sokratis 1974 (11/12/2210:01 PM)
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Style Producer Ketron Event, Ketron Audya 76, Audya 5, SD9, SD1,Yamaha Genos, Korg Pa3x, microarranger, Roland Fantom G6, V-Synth XT, XV-5080, SH201, D-50, Novation KS4, Dave Smith Evolver
Registered: 02/05/18
Posts: 31
Loc: Southend-on-Sea, UK
I am also interested in this Event product. But as with all new instruments, they are usually heralded with lots of publicity and very little information.
I am accustomed to waiting a year or more for a new product to reach the market - perhaps the Event will take a year or more to reach the shops.
It is best not to get too excited because we may not see the Event any time soon. It will be on sale when Ketron is ready to sell it.
#507257 - 12/20/2210:27 PMRe: The new KETRON EVENT Workstation ... it's coming.
[Re: Brian3331]
Ketron_AJ Moderator
Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3600
Loc: Middletown, DE
Originally Posted By Brian3331
Any idea when the event is coming and any videos in English
US delivery is estimated at January 2023 (full production units).
We have started working on some videos to be released shortly...
All those who have pre-ordered will be getting the first badge of EVENTS in the USA.
Because of KETRON's history with Audio and Midi, the EVENT is not totally new from the ground up (like was the case with AUDYA which experienced some hurdles), but a major combination of technology and Sound from both the Audya Series and SD9 Series to give you something never heard of nor tried in the Arranger Keyboard and Sound Module world.
In the meantime, if you have specific questions and would like to get quick responses, kindly send us an email at Ajaminc@Gmail.com as we do not monitor this forum on a regular base.
#507258 - 12/20/2210:29 PMRe: The new KETRON EVENT Workstation ... it's coming.
[Re: LatinoMike]
Ketron_AJ Moderator
Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3600
Loc: Middletown, DE
Originally Posted By LatinoMike
I am also interested in this Event product. But as with all new instruments, they are usually heralded with lots of publicity and very little information.
I am accustomed to waiting a year or more for a new product to reach the market - perhaps the Event will take a year or more to reach the shops.
It is best not to get too excited because we may not see the Event any time soon. It will be on sale when Ketron is ready to sell it.
USA Customer will be seeing their KETRON EVENTs much sooner due to Pre-Orders going on.
In the meantime, if you have any specific questions you want answered soonest, kindly send us a direct email to Ajaminc@Gmail.com as we do not monitor this forum regularly.
I attended to your workshop which showed a bit about the possibilities on the Event and I would say this seems very promising. BTW, AJ great job, Thanks! skude
Registered: 11/14/99
Posts: 837
Loc: Punta Gorda Florida USA
Hello friends!
It's been a while since I've posted. Hard to believe that I have been retired already over a year. When I retired I expected a Genos 2 to be available within a few years. Don't think that's gonna happen.
Tonite I started asking about delivery of the new Ketron Event. So far I like the videos I have seen on it. How would one compare it to my Genos?? It's a lot of money to buy sight unseen. Not sure if I can find one in sw florida to try out first. I don't like to make hasty decisions but I would like to get my hands on one. I feel some excitement over it all! -charley
I like to time my gearlust to the ACTUAL shipping of a product!
But, the truth is, I can make great music with the same arranger I’ve used for a decade. Push comes to shove I can make great music with the arranger I used for the previous decade!
Perhaps we should focus on what new features an arranger has that we are likely to use on a daily basis? What’s it got that makes you say ‘Damn! That’s what I’ve wanted for years!’. Because if there isn’t one, well, what’s the point..?
One thing I’d say about moving from a Genos to an Event is, how much use do you make of legacy styles (styles that didn’t come with your Genos)? The Event’s reliance on great sounding audio Parts is going to make old styles sound a bit less impressive than the included ROM styles. If you’ve been completely satisfied by the Genos’s ROM styles and haven’t tried to use older or third party styles, the Event might be all you need. But if you’ve fleshed out your ROM styles by importing older or third party styles, you may find that more difficult with an Event.
It’s a question all arranger players need to ask before changing to an expensive new model… Am I lusting after this because I’m tired of my styles, or does the new arranger do stuff I really, really would use all the time? 🎹
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
I wander like everyone and even tried a T5 recently (kick myself). I've been with Korg for years. When I quit being lazy, I got into more styles that I've not used - and wow. There are so many more to choose from in my board (and stock to boot) that it should keep me busy forever. I have enough styles on stick that would take forever to explore. But kudos to those who are trying their new boards.
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Live: Korg PA4X/EV Everse 8s/Senn 935/K&M stand
Studio: Korg PA4X/Yamaha DGX670/Nord 6D73/Boss BR900CD/Tascam DP24SD/MTM Iloud/Sony C80/AGK 214/ATEM Mini Pro switcher/K&M stand
Hi AJ, does the Ketron event have some sort of event list style editing for styles where you can fix up a single note if you make a mistake while recording it from scratch, or do you have record the style track again?
Might also go by name of microscopic editing in Roland’s ? Diki of course would know being a die hard Roland fan😀
But if you just make ONE mistake, kudos to you! Personally I’m a much bigger fan of being able to import and export style Divisions to a DAW, which gives you a VASTLY easier editing environment than a list edit.
All kinds of options exist to allow things like groove quantize, velocity compression, controller editing and the like, all in a nice big graphically rich environment.
Nowadays, I think this is by far the easiest way to edit styles…
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
But if you just make ONE mistake, kudos to you! Personally I’m a much bigger fan of being able to import and export style Divisions to a DAW, which gives you a VASTLY easier editing environment than a list edit.
All kinds of options exist to allow things like groove quantize, velocity compression, controller editing and the like, all in a nice big graphically rich environment.
Nowadays, I think this is by far the easiest way to edit styles…
Hi Diki , korgs can do that too , as a whole style, import/export as .mid and I’m reasonably sure it could be done as individual sections, ( don’t hold me to that ). That’s how I used to do my psr to korg style conversions.
Must be a feature they added in later models? My old g800 I’m pretty sure never did it, or I wouldn’t have had to record individual edited style tracks across from pc sequencer to g800. Glad those days are gone 😀.
Yeah, style to MIDI and back was never really a strong focus for Roland. I think they had some PC software included with the Prelude that allowed a style to be stitched together from SMF’s, but it was never developed further or bundled with any other arranger (afaik).
Yet another in the long list of great features developed (partially) and then completely neglected. For the want of a nail…
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
Yeah, style to MIDI and back was never really a strong focus for Roland. I think they had some PC software included with the Prelude that allowed a style to be stitched together from SMF’s, but it was never developed further or bundled with any other arranger (afaik).
Yet another in the long list of great features developed (partially) and then completely neglected. For the want of a nail…
Hi Diki, I misunderstood, I thought you meant Roland eventually included some sort of mid to style function. I was a Roland fan early days always had a technics and a Roland. Loved those RA arrangers. Big fan of arranger modules.
I doubt that the best place for a style Part to MIDI and back is the arranger itself.
I mean, the whole point of it is that, sooner or later, you’re going to use a computer. Might as well get the whole process in there, get to see all your options on a nice big display, allow simple drag and drop or copy paste over to your DAW, and all it needs is quick easy transfer to the arranger (preferably in real-time to the play buffer) for testing the Division out.
Let’s face it, even tablets (even most phones nowadays!) have bigger screens than the best arrangers! So a computer gives you all the screen estate you need to keep track on how you’re assembling and editing your new style. Style creation and editing is a pretty comp,ex function, and dividing it up into multiple pages because you’re stuck with a tiny display just doesn’t make sense any more.
It’s kind of like built-in arranger sequencers. The BEST of them is a complete dog compared to sequencing on a computer. Time to migrate all these complex editing arranger functions (style creation and editing, voice editing, sample editing, multipad creation etc) to a nice big computer screen…
This is the 21st century, isn’t it? 😂🎹
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
#507681 - 02/19/2309:49 PMRe: The new KETRON EVENT Workstation ... it's coming.
[Re: Diki]
cgiles
Senior Member
Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Originally Posted By Diki
Time to migrate all these complex editing arranger functions (style creation and editing, voice editing, sample editing, multipad creation etc) to a nice big computer screen…
This is the 21st century, isn’t it? 😂🎹
....and yet, I can monitor my heart rate, track most of my physical activities, monitor my sleep patterns, call or text my buddy half way around the world, schedule (and be notified of) my appointments, pay for my in-store purchases, and oh yeah, tell the time, ALL ON A DEVICE ABOUT THE SIZE OF A QUARTER (tucked away neatly on my wrist). Seems to me the FUTURE is trending towards miniaturization (with it's corresponding efficiency, energy saving, and convenience). Time to realize that every 'brilliant' idea may be right for you but not necessarily right for everyone. Every person has his/her own desired workflow. Some people actually prefer doing everything within the unit and see all the back-and-forth between the instrument and the computer as more 'burdensome' and unnecessarily complex (not to mention requiring an extra piece of expensive equipment and a certain level of expertise on that equipment). Even those that opt for the computer approach STILL like having the option of the on-board features.
Whoops, my smart watch just reminded me that I've been sitting at this computer too long....time to get up and stretch .
chas
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"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]
#507683 - 02/20/2305:39 AMRe: The new KETRON EVENT Workstation ... it's coming.
[Re: cgiles]
abacus
Senior Member
Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5385
Loc: English Riviera, UK
Originally Posted By cgiles
Originally Posted By Diki
Time to migrate all these complex editing arranger functions (style creation and editing, voice editing, sample editing, multipad creation etc) to a nice big computer screen…
This is the 21st century, isn’t it? 😂🎹
....and yet, I can monitor my heart rate, track most of my physical activities, monitor my sleep patterns, call or text my buddy half way around the world, schedule (and be notified of) my appointments, pay for my in-store purchases, and oh yeah, tell the time, ALL ON A DEVICE ABOUT THE SIZE OF A QUARTER (tucked away neatly on my wrist). Seems to me the FUTURE is trending towards miniaturization (with it's corresponding efficiency, energy saving, and convenience). Time to realize that every 'brilliant' idea may be right for you but not necessarily right for everyone. Every person has his/her own desired workflow. Some people actually prefer doing everything within the unit and see all the back-and-forth between the instrument and the computer as more 'burdensome' and unnecessarily complex (not to mention requiring an extra piece of expensive equipment and a certain level of expertise on that equipment). Even those that opt for the computer approach STILL like having the option of the on-board features.
Whoops, my smart watch just reminded me that I've been sitting at this computer too long....time to get up and stretch .
chas
It depends on what you want to do as to the size of screen you need; using a DAW on a watch is pointless just monitoring heart rate on a big screen is overkill. Best option for an arranger (And many manufactures provide facility’s for this) is a Tablet that can be used in conjunction with the on-board screen. (It also allows you to choose what size tablet you want)
Bill
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English Riviera: Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).
#507685 - 02/20/2307:13 AMRe: The new KETRON EVENT Workstation ... it's coming.
[Re: Ketron_AJ]
cgiles
Senior Member
Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Soooo...what you got from my post is that I was advocating editing styles on a watch? Really? BTW, how come so much animosity towards Ketron products, especially since you don't own one, have never owned one, and don't intend to buy one. I thought it was interesting (but not surprising) that Rikki mentioned that most of the negativity and pot-stirring over at the Korg forum came from people who didn't even own a Korg. I think AJ, who has a reputation for being over-and-above helpful and supportive, has been extremely patient and accommodating in fielding information requests, even prickly and sarcastic ones from people with no purchasing intent. Sure, he's a company representative but he's certainly a better man than me.
For the record, I don't edit styles although I see nothing wrong with trying to make something sound better. It's just that most of the styles on my arrangers already sound better than any enhancements I might make, and plus, I'd rather spend my time playing them than editing them. My theory is that lousy playing over a meticulously edited style is still lousy playing. Of course these are just my opinions, and I don't for a second think that they are superior to anyone else's.
chas
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]
#507686 - 02/20/2307:20 AMRe: The new KETRON EVENT Workstation ... it's coming.
[Re: Ketron_AJ]
cgiles
Senior Member
Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
Yo Diki, I tried editing a style on my watch and frankly, I couldn't tell the difference. Of course it was a Country & Western style so the jury's still out .
chas
PS: The TEMPO's perfect, though.
Edited by cgiles (02/20/2307:22 AM)
_________________________
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]
#507691 - 02/21/2309:59 AMRe: The new KETRON EVENT Workstation ... it's coming.
[Re: Ketron_AJ]
Ketron_AJ Moderator
Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3600
Loc: Middletown, DE
KETRON also does this with individual style and/or Midi pats, especially with the SD9/60/90 via the LaunchPad feature. However, we also know that 90%+ of folks will choose using a DAW over an arranger for this degree of detail, cleary expressed by Diki above.
For the record, I don't edit styles although I see nothing wrong with trying to make something sound better. It's just that most of the styles on my arrangers already sound better than any enhancements I might make, and plus, I'd rather spend my time playing them than editing them.
chas
Hi Chas, factory styles on my arrangers sound far better than anything I could do to try and enhance, but ,if I load a style that goes back a couple of generations , just say a pa800 to Pa4x, it doesn’t necessarily sound great. They also miss a couple of fills. So handy being able to add the fills. Only use them as a last resort if non of the onboard styles suit.
KETRON also does this with individual style and/or Midi pats, especially with the SD9/60/90 via the LaunchPad feature. However, we also know that 90%+ of folks will choose using a DAW over an arranger for this degree of detail, cleary expressed by Diki above.
Thanks,
Hi AJ , does the Event have this LaunchPad feature ? only reason I’m asking about being able to edit notes in the midi styles , (wouldn’t care whether it’s via a Daw or in the keyboard itself, )is , in one one of your video’s you mentioned the possibility of a module version of Event maybe next year. We’ve recently got a new Ketron distributor here in Aust. so there’s plenty of time to find out if he’s reliable. If he ends up being a tenth as dedicated as you are to the product, I’d be happy. We have had some bad ones.
#507720 - 02/22/2308:13 PMRe: The new KETRON EVENT Workstation ... it's coming.
[Re: rikkisbears]
Ketron_AJ Moderator
Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 3600
Loc: Middletown, DE
Originally Posted By rikkisbears
Originally Posted By Ketron_AJ
KETRON also does this with individual style and/or Midi pats, especially with the SD9/60/90 via the LaunchPad feature. However, we also know that 90%+ of folks will choose using a DAW over an arranger for this degree of detail, cleary expressed by Diki above.
Thanks,
Hi AJ , does the Event have this LaunchPad feature ? only reason I’m asking about being able to edit notes in the midi styles , (wouldn’t care whether it’s via a Daw or in the keyboard itself, )is , in one one of your video’s you mentioned the possibility of a module version of Event maybe next year. We’ve recently got a new Ketron distributor here in Aust. so there’s plenty of time to find out if he’s reliable. If he ends up being a tenth as dedicated as you are to the product, I’d be happy. We have had some bad ones.
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