Well, Chas, it’s throwing red meat at a wolf if you think that a discussion (and video) squarely aimed at music that a) none of us listen to and b) has nothing to do with how any of us perform isn’t going to spill over to include what we actually do!

To be honest, your words ‘much of which could be applies to arranger performances’ is a good case for it being you that missed the point of the video. Rick Beato is a studio pro, hasn’t got jack to do with what we do, and pretty much aims his remarks at a market segment none of us have anything to do with, and if we ever did, it was long before tracks became prevalent.

Sure, you want a discussion about pro touring bands using tracks, have at it. But how were you expecting this to go once you went ‘much of which could be applies to arranger performances’?

I see absolutely no difference between a signed pro touring band using audio tracks, or a sequencer or an arranger. If it walks like a duck….

But having brought up that this video has any relevance for arranger players, perhaps it needs clarifying exactly how? Because I see no connection whatsoever.

Diki, I'm not going to spar with you. I posted a video that everyone but you thought was interesting and educational and historical. But of course, as usual, you just couldn't resist making a simple video post something else. You seem obsessed with showing the rest of us what a superior intellect you are and of course, how you're never wrong about anything. Whatever the situation, no matter how innocent, you always seem to be able to make it into a controversy. I've never once ever heard you say, "you know what, maybe you're right", and frankly, I never expect to. For the person who always has to be right, humility is not their vocabulary. And, IN MY OPINION, this is precisely the type of personality who should NEVER be in charge of anything. We've seen how that turns out.

I think the unrelenting attack on the Ketron Event even before any detailed specifications had been released is a good example of creating controversy where none existed, and especially by someone who, by their own admission, had absolutely no intention of purchasing one. We suffered through a ten+ year crusade about the chord sequencer, and yet when they did appear on other manufacturer's boards with even better implementation than the Roland's, I have yet to see or hear anyone (at least in our group) use it. Much ado about nothing? or just a feature that was important to you but of limited interest to the rest of the arranger community.

Look, we all know you're a smart guy. You don't have to prove it in every post. It can get really annoying (at least to me). Hey, no hard feelings but you're not the only one with a working brain. I mean, we actually agree on most things (socially, politically, and musically), it's just how that knowledge/wisdom is imparted. I sincerely hope other members don't see this as a 'war' where they have to choose sides. Sadly, that seems to be the way things are these days. Hope that changes soon.

chas

I think Chas and Diki make some really good posts on this forum and I understand both points of view but I also think Diki's post above has some very good comments within. Posters don't have to adhere to what the OP had in mind... our minds wander and we post what comes to mind. If arranger thoughts come to mind, well, it's an arranger forum, it's somewhat natural.

As for me, if I go to a concert of a famous band, I don't want them using tracks. Plenty of bands are good enough to pull off a live performance and slay us with their talent. If the song is a bit different from the recorded song, so be it. I understand "they sounded just like the record" but it might be interesting to hear another take! Ever been to a Dylan concert? Of course, he is the extreme... some of the songs might not come off so great but sometimes, they create an amazing, spontaneous rendition!

I’m still waiting to hear what the hell the video had with relation to us arranger players. You know, if offered with the specific words that it did have relevance…

I got no problem with what Rick Beato says about artists using tracks, and I think he’s pretty much on the money given the artists he refers to and the situations they use them in. But I still think that’s got nothing to do with us. I’d sure like to hear your thoughts about how it pertains to us, seeing as you say it does.

And sorry you don’t like being debated, Chas, but if you want to stick something out there and have no dissent, best of luck finding anywhere on the web that’s going to happen. To clear something up, I’m not in charge of ANYTHING, I’m just posting as any other member here. Don’t let the green tag fool you. I don’t edit anyone’s post, I’m not going to ban anyone, never have, never will. If we get something that turns nasty and personal, it will be referred to Kerry before anything permanent is done.

My only real ‘moderation’ duties here lie over at the Roland sub-forum (the only reason I came back after Roland-arranger.com closed its doors) and keeping an eye out for personal attacks and egregious language. So what has led you to believe I’m ‘in charge’ beats me.

But this isn’t an echo chamber, that’s what happened when the last batch of old timers left. They didn’t want to hear anything other than agreement. Do you find yourself in their midst now? I don’t recall that being your attitude at the time…

Here is a solution to this problem, blending the best of All worlds which is: TRACKS (Midi/Audio or both) + Actual Live Performance + The ability to control ALL in real time:-

https://youtu.be/r5pD_dmm1t0

That sounds pretty darn good, AJ

Bernie

Wow! Sounds great. Are there other lead instruments besides sax with this capability?

chas

Here you go:- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Q_MbeQvpFU

Wow! Now I know I'm really old, especially when I can relate to everything Bernie posted. I was the first performer in this part of the country to use a Roland Programmable drum machine while playing my 12-string Yamaha guitar and singing. That was back in the early 1960s, when Carol and I first met. She thought I looked a lot like James Dean, and I did my best to live up to that reputation. Her mom thought I looked pretty snazzy in my Maryland State Police uniform, which put me on her good side.

Ironically, when I switched from the guitar and drum machine to the Yamaha PSR-500 arranger keyboard, at first, my audiences thought I was cheating, lip syncing and doing Karaoke. It was not until they discovered that it was me doing the playing and singing, no tracks or MP3s, that those dance floors filled and the crowd and I were essentially one. I guess that's why I enjoy Jimmy Buffett concerts - mistakes and all.

Back to the treadmill,

Gary

Did anyone notice, the sax solo wasn’t being played at all?

It’s pre-recorded licks that work with certain chord changes. Bit like how Band in a Box’s Soloist works. Only difference is, BIAB knows the changes you want in advance. I wonder how well this works if you start to do changes in less than standard places, etc.?

I can see how the repetitive nature of accompaniment is not a big deal when you’re putting something non-repetitive on top of it. It’s how arrangers have worked for decades. I am not so sure about using audio phrases as the actual lead though. Forget for the minute the technical challenges of getting this to work around non-rote changes and changes in non-standard places, but now the actual solo isn’t you playing at all…

This is rather what Gary is referring to when his audience thought he was not actually playing, that it was karaoke. But it really WAS him other than the backing.

At what point does it actually become what the audience may already think it is? For me, I think it comes when the lead isn’t played at all. And I think this is what Rick Beato is referencing. The minute you are trying to disguise that you aren’t playing what the audience thinks you are, you’re swimming some murky waters.

At what point does it become DJ-ing?