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#508892 - 09/26/23 09:40 AM
Re: BiaB unique demos
[Re: jingleman]
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 3456
Loc: South Africa
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Hi Jingleman,
I understand the problem. Arrangers are Realtime only. I.o.w it has no idea what progression of chords follow next. BiaB does. So even before anything plays, it is fully optimized for those specific sequence of chord changes. No ways can it be achieved in realtime.
I thought long & hard about this. One solution for an arranger like i.e. the Ketron Event would be to have a "Learn" button. So when you play live, anytime you enter any repetitive section, you select this button on the fly at the start & precisely at the end of the repetition.
Now the arranger can do EXACTLY the same as BiaB for the next repetition. The result should be spectacular. It would be like a "Variation 1" for the first session and more complex variations for the rest to follow.
But yes, BiaB could tone down their solo sections for Realtime playing and allow you to interface with something that can influence whatever is currently playing. That would really create something AWESOME!!! I will not be surprised if they are already working on such an idea.
In any case, with the newest arranger technology, one can at least create something in an audio format with BiaB that could interface with the arranger (i.e. a multipad) and use this to GREATLY enhance your performance. Pity I do not have an arranger for now as I could demonstrate this with awesomeness. This would be the natural way to go for me.
As far as I understand, the Ketron Event would make this easier than anything else.
Also, think what would happen if Ketron could come to some sort of a financial arrangement with BiaB to use some of their styles and voices. They have such a vast database (I mentioned 11500 before). Yes, many of these utilize the same style, but you can browse in completely different audio sections into ANY track of ANY style which IMMEDIATELY makes for a complete new style.
_________________________
Make sure you'll fly forever!
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#508893 - 09/26/23 10:30 AM
Re: BiaB unique demos
[Re: Henni]
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5355
Loc: English Riviera, UK
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A chord looper (Or as Roland called it a chord sequencer) has been available on Roland keyboards since the 2000s, Korg also added it, as well as the software arranger vArranger. If you are using a computer there are 100s & 100s of VSTs on the market to get whatever sounds you want, and if you use vARranger or a Wersi OAX instrument they can load and use any VST you want. Look at what's in modern arrangers (Or if you really want to go to town Workstations) and you can do pretty much anything you want. BIAB is a fantastic program that has really evolved, and if you want to use it with a keyboard, just record the output as an audio file, load it into your keyboard (Most instruments can play audio files) and play along to it. Anyway, thanks for posting, it's always interesting.
Bill
_________________________
English Riviera: Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).
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#508901 - 09/27/23 01:58 AM
Re: BiaB unique demos
[Re: Henni]
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 5515
Loc: Port Charlotte,FL,USA
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Hi Henni, It is nice to hear from you again. I miss your posts from the good old days, in your missionary endeavors. So many of us have experienced a decline in gigs, but we still stay involved in our passion regardless. I think it is great that you went through all that work illustrating BIAB. I have the 2021 Ultimate, which I never really learned. Now might be a good time.
Stay well my friend
_________________________
pa4X 76 ,SX900, Audya 76,Yamaha S970 , vArranger, Hammond SK1, Ketron SD40, Centerpoint Space Station, Bose compact
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#508910 - 09/28/23 10:22 AM
Re: BiaB unique demos
[Re: hammer]
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 3456
Loc: South Africa
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Hi Deane,
1. No, no keyboard needed. I suggest that you convert all your gig midi files to Real Tracks. It is really easy. Maybe not for the first few, but definitely thereafter. The midi file will lay down the chords, tempo, key etc. which simplifies the process. BiaB will suggest the best styles for almost any song you can think of. If you want you can completely delete the midi tracks afterwards as you now have a full real band backing your vocals.
2. Then you play your backtracks as MP3s on your laptop, same as you did for your midis. Only MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more realistic. You do not need BiaB for this - only to create all your songs.
3. Listen to my converted midi versions - I am sure you can do much better as I only had use of the program for a short while.
4. Version depends on what you are willing to spend. Visit my links to PG Music, listen to the demos and then decide how much you want or need.
5. You can start with the most basic version, mess around with it first & then add what you need. 6. I don't think your Apple Computer will be a problem.
7. I am sure someone over at Sweetwater, PG Music etc. would love to assist you in starting your new journey.
8. Carefully study the next three videos (especially the last two) to see just how easy this realy is.
Henni
_________________________
Make sure you'll fly forever!
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#508945 - 10/01/23 04:24 PM
Re: BiaB unique demos
[Re: Henni]
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14212
Loc: NW Florida
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Here’s the rub… create a BIAB recording (or use a commercial backing track) you’re basically functionally back to using SMF’s. Start at the beginning (very few arrangers can jump around within the file like many computer programs can) play to the end. Period.
No opportunity to mess with the song, no chance to change structure (add extra solos etc), no medleys on the fly, no easy transposition to different keys (again, few arrangers have really high quality file transposition, change more than one half step, quality drops off radically).
Decades ago, most arranger players decided to use the arranger rather than a decent workstation for its on the fly flexibility. Even back then, you lost a bit of quality compared to a good WS, and even today you lost a bit of editing flexibility. But nothing else allowed you freedom to improvise better than the arranger.
Using BIAB to make tracks using real audio parts has been around for decades. And the results have long surpassed the arranger. But you can’t play it live. So this seems to be useful by those that use mostly tracks.
Nowadays, compared to when Real Tracks came out, there has been a radical drop in the price of high quality multitrack files. To the point of perhaps working out cheaper than BIAB with a whole slew of Real Tracks packs. Depending on how many you have the time to make, or how fast you think you’d pick up the complexities of the program (and have a fast enough computer to deal with multiple real audio tracks) you may end up spending a ton more than you’d have done shopping around the backing track sites.
Don’t get me wrong, I’ve always had a soft spot for BIAB from its first days as a MIDI only track generator. But the scenery has changed since the 90’s (it came out in 1990 and ran on PC and my great Atari ST) and it faces a lot more challenges and has ballooned in price massively when you go get those Real Tracks..!
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#508963 - 10/02/23 11:35 PM
Re: BiaB unique demos
[Re: Diki]
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 3456
Loc: South Africa
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Hi Diki,
Thank you for your kind words.
What follows now is my own personal opinion:
To me, those things are still styles. They sound like styles and are used just like styles even though the arrangement is no longer in real-time.
BiaB makes it nearly impossible for any one with an arranger to compete successfully in the commercial music market. Yes, the arranger is well suited for the gigging world, but lack finesse when it comes to producing music (especially new music) for the broadcasting sector. Also, the FULL version of BiaB is much, much, much more affordable than most arrangers & it comes with 11,500 very, very high quality "styles".
Yes, I know this comment will draw a lot of flak, but I'll stick to my opinion. As far as the creation of new music is concerned, I am rather convinced that very little can compete with the newest BiaB.
The next major breakthrough would be to adapt BiaB to also cater for real-time playing albeit a bit toned down. Imagine if Ketron could make use of everything already created by BiaB for their new Event follow up. Also, we are now comparing many thousand of "styles" to the limited four hundred or so on most arrangers.
You'll realize that, as I demo many, many more "styles", they are ALL of exceptional quality & very pleasing & inspiring to listen to. Listen how seamlessly the solo sections follow the odd chord changes to even the finest detail - they seem to have mastered that now in their newest release. No arranger has ever inspired me more although I would still use one as soon as I can afford.
Keep well my friend.
Henni
_________________________
Make sure you'll fly forever!
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#508975 - 10/03/23 11:37 AM
Re: BiaB unique demos
[Re: Henni]
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14212
Loc: NW Florida
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As one that uses tracks primarily, I’m in your corner on this one Henni, but I usually have to moderate my own opinions on this by remembering this is still an ARRANGER forum (and by extension, an arranger PLAYER’S site) so I have to keep this in mind.
Use BIAB to create your track, it then becomes immaterial what device it’s played on, arranger, workstation, laptop tracks player, even a smartphone!
There’s one other aspect I haven’t touched on. Arrangers are primarily an amateur keyboard. Don’t all get mad, there’s plenty of us pros that love them too! But by the numbers, I’d say the majority of them end up in the hands of hobbyists and beginners. And if there’s ONE thing that the arranger does that no other backing system can, that is to accommodate players that might throw an accidental extra bar in, or miss a cue and start late. Backing track has no idea what you are doing. But an arranger will happily throw in an extra bar, or an extra bar or two, or jump to the ‘one’ instantly if you accidentally came in in the middle of a bar! They are very forgiving to beginner players…
I like the end results of much of what BIAB does. But at the end of the day, it doesn’t matter one whit what you play the file on! We can debate up and down all day whether it’s an arranger or whether it’s a backing track generator, but the bottom line is, you can’t ‘play’ it. Which makes it moot..!
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#508983 - 10/03/23 04:06 PM
Re: BiaB unique demos
[Re: Henni]
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14212
Loc: NW Florida
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One thing that strikes me as a killer use for BIAB using the audio tracks if you have an Event is, this might be the way to add a massive library of well played, solid tempo real guitar loops with FULL choice of chords and voicing in a myriad of styles!
The Event is capable of streaming from a huge selection of chord types, but obviously, it’s damn expensive to create an entire style library with all chords, all keys, so only a subset of the styles allow more complex chords like sus4, aug6th, 11th, 13th etc. BIAB got all of them (mostly!).
So using BIAB to export the guitar loops (or bass, or drums, whatever) might allow for a good way to turn a BIAB ‘style’ (see?! I said it myself!😂) into an actual live style in the Event!
This might be the best thing that ever happened to Ketron, who have always been a bit light on content with full chord type availability. This makes it SO much easier to stitch a live audio style together than hiring guitarists!
I guess the only caveat might be, if you want to create AND SELL styles with BIAB’s Live Loops in them, you might have to be careful whether that is infringement or not… But for private use only (live gigs) I see no reason this is illegal. Just don’t try to sell them!
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#509018 - 10/14/23 01:53 AM
Re: BiaB unique demos
[Re: Henni]
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 5515
Loc: Port Charlotte,FL,USA
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Hi Henni
All good stuff. Life got in the way, but I will get back to you soon.
_________________________
pa4X 76 ,SX900, Audya 76,Yamaha S970 , vArranger, Hammond SK1, Ketron SD40, Centerpoint Space Station, Bose compact
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#509419 - 01/06/24 03:11 AM
Re: BiaB unique demos
[Re: Henni]
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 5515
Loc: Port Charlotte,FL,USA
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Hi Henni There is no question but that the BIAB styles are very good. Would it be safe to say most resulting songs are made by simply copying the chords from a lead sheet, or additional data entered to be more creative?
Bernie
_________________________
pa4X 76 ,SX900, Audya 76,Yamaha S970 , vArranger, Hammond SK1, Ketron SD40, Centerpoint Space Station, Bose compact
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#509422 - 01/06/24 06:34 AM
Re: BiaB unique demos
[Re: cgiles]
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5355
Loc: English Riviera, UK
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Yes Bernie,
It is really a breeze to create anything.
Henni "We do this not because it's easy, but because it's hard" --JFK It's true, BIAB is a remarkable program (totally outclasses any of it's would-be competitors). HOWEVER, what's the goal here? It's like a sophisticated musical game where you can play 'Amazing Grace' as a Jazz Waltz (with virtually no effort on your part). Very few musicians will recognize or acknowledge your talent from a composition you created with BIAB. That's not to say that it has no uses or has no value. It can give you ideas for an arrangement, help you learn a song quickly (if your aim is to actually PLAY it), or even create something that would make the original composer want to kill you ![smile smile](/forum/images/graemlins/default_dark/smile.gif) . Music is such a personal thing. For me, I'd rather develop a 'signature' sound rather than create something that anyone with a computer and $99 bucks could easily duplicate. But that's just me. Your attitude towards the program and usage of it is 100% valid for YOU. As a novelty program or even as a learning tool, it certainly has value. To make it the primary basis for one's musical endeavors....I'm not so sure. YMMV. I just feel that there is no substitute for putting in the time and effort to learn to play. Arrangers are a step away from that; BIAB is one step further. Some of the BIAB arrangements are very nice; congratulations to the composers and arrangers that created them. chas Agree 100% Bill
_________________________
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#509423 - 01/06/24 07:01 AM
Re: BiaB unique demos
[Re: abacus]
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 3456
Loc: South Africa
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I bet a great many hits being played on the airways were created with BiaB. I know for a fact that some make their career & income from it. Would love your take on the latest music created with the help of AI - the "artists/musicians" are making a killing with it. No use kicking against the pricks. We are old - some of us even gone. On PSRTutorial they are discussing the trend of arrangers when we old folks are gone and they are 100% correct. The world & it's technology moves on regardless of our personal opinion. We had it our way & now it's their turn & BiaB definitely caters for moving in that direction. One thing I'll state: I am having more fun with BiaB than with anything else till now. And I thoroughly enjoyed ALL of my arrangers as well as my many contributions for every one of those arrangers. But then, that's ME! Most of these folks perform regularly as one man bands and notice how they use BiaB for that purpose. This planet is certainly filled with all sorts of musicians and to each his own - as long as we have fun! I see no reason to critisize others for the specific method they choose to live out their talents. And then a final thought - I would LOVE to see more post their music that they created with their specific instruments of choice over here to inspire the rest of us. Bar AJ, why do I feel so alone in doing so? There ought to be many more topics like this one highlighting all the other great instruments being used out there. Would it not be great if one of you would start a topic for i.e. ALL the arrangers where others are encouraged to post their renditions of their models over here. Nice & neat & all in one topic for all to follow. I suggest keeping it in MP3 format with links to i.e. Boxnet like I do in order not to use up all bandwidth over here. Anyways, just an idea...
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#509426 - 01/08/24 02:07 AM
Re: BiaB unique demos
[Re: Henni]
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5355
Loc: English Riviera, UK
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I bet a great many hits being played on the airways were created with BiaB. I know for a fact that some make their career & income from it. Would love your take on the latest music created with the help of AI - the "artists/musicians" are making a killing with it. No use kicking against the pricks. We are old - some of us even gone. On PSRTutorial they are discussing the trend of arrangers when we old folks are gone and they are 100% correct. The world & it's technology moves on regardless of our personal opinion. We had it our way & now it's their turn & BiaB definitely caters for moving in that direction. One thing I'll state: I am having more fun with BiaB than with anything else till now. And I thoroughly enjoyed ALL of my arrangers as well as my many contributions for every one of those arrangers. But then, that's ME! Most of these folks perform regularly as one man bands and notice how they use BiaB for that purpose. This planet is certainly filled with all sorts of musicians and to each his own - as long as we have fun! I see no reason to critisize others for the specific method they choose to live out their talents. And then a final thought - I would LOVE to see more post their music that they created with their specific instruments of choice over here to inspire the rest of us. Bar AJ, why do I feel so alone in doing so? There ought to be many more topics like this one highlighting all the other great instruments being used out there. Would it not be great if one of you would start a topic for i.e. ALL the arrangers where others are encouraged to post their renditions of their models over here. Nice & neat & all in one topic for all to follow. I suggest keeping it in MP3 format with links to i.e. Boxnet like I do in order not to use up all bandwidth over here. Anyways, just an idea... Technology is a great servant, but a very bad master, hence if you go back to the various times when technology ruled in music, the music sucked and became the equivalent of Karaoke, fortunately (As usual) musicianship came back, and music moved forward. Bill
_________________________
English Riviera: Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).
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#509427 - 01/08/24 09:43 AM
Re: BiaB unique demos
[Re: Henni]
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14212
Loc: NW Florida
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I think that any form of auto accompaniment has an important role for the solo musician…
Not to be included in the final mix, but as an inspiring starting place for you to be able to play without that dreaded ‘blank paper’ moment early in production. Usually, in studio work, the rhythm section is tracked as a whole, and then sweetening is added afterwards. But the solo musician, if he doesn’t use accompaniment tools, has to lay down each part (especially the first couple of rhythm) without the benefit of anything else to play WITH, and it’s that interaction that leads to a more cohesive performance.
So I’ve no problem with their place in the studio or backing track preparation. But…
The magic that is humans playing real music is generally (hopefully!) far superior to machines playing little chunks that are stitched together using one system or another. The subtle variations that humans impart is something that may sometimes be difficult to hear but is obvious in its absence.
Now yes, we’ve had 20 years of dance music that WAS originally created using repetitive loops, and if that’s what you’re trying to do the machine deserves its spot in the final mix. But if you’re trying to make music based on an older aesthetic, it deserves to be through played, from beginning to end, like the original.
Generally, I love auto accompaniment to get the ball rolling, but gradually each part gets replaced by a played part, whether by me or a studio musician. I think it’s worth the time…
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An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#509429 - 01/08/24 10:41 AM
Re: BiaB unique demos
[Re: Diki]
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/01/08
Posts: 3456
Loc: South Africa
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1. The ONLY difference between BiaB and an arranger is that one operates in realtime & the other not. 2. So EVERYTHING stated in the last few posts apply equally to the arranger as well. 3. The Ketron Event is the best attempt to date to merge these two technologies. 4. You guys AMAZE me with your "wisdom". And you should really consider pulling your review. Too automated for use by a pure musician... 5. You should also really post more of your creations over here instead like I do. That way others will be inspired by your contributions.
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#509430 - 01/08/24 11:38 AM
Re: BiaB unique demos
[Re: Henni]
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 6703
Loc: Roswell,GA/USA
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In my opinion, there is not much creative about jotting down some chords in BIAB (or similar), selecting a style, and hitting PLAY. i'm sure THAT could be done by a well trained chimp (well actually he wouldn't have to be that well trained). Seriously, what Diki said above could certainly be applied if that's your approach to starting a project. In fact, I myself use pre-recorded drum tracks or drum tracks I constructed using drum machine software and I always do this FIRST as I play along in my head. So I guess, in a way, I'm doing the same thing, just to a lesser degree. Where available, I ALWAYS prefer a live drummer, but only if he's good (with time and taste). Another problem with non-realtime programs like BIAB is the difficulty in using them (or their creations) on a gig. Ignore this if you aren't gigging. What do you do with a request that's not in your song file? Hum it? or maybe call a break and start furiously typing in chords? or just be honest and tell the requester that your computer doesn't know that.....yet. At least with an arranger, if you know it or can quickly bring it up from your digitized fake book, AND can play, you can probably hack it and get that $2.00 tip (that's where those years of music lessons come in) ![smile smile](/forum/images/graemlins/default_dark/smile.gif) . The point is, no one that can play even a little bit, is ever going to trade in their arranger KB for BIAB. They may buy/use it IN ADDITION TO their keyboard, especially in a way as described in Diki's post. But let's face it; that old adage is still true; 'you get what you pay for'. Your old, outdated laptop, your questionable taste and talent, and a $99+ program is not going to be a viable substitute for a Genos or PA5x. PLUS, doesn't the primary joy in this business come from PLAYING? JMO. chas
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"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." [Nietzsche]
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#509441 - 01/09/24 06:01 AM
Re: BiaB unique demos
[Re: Henni]
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/21/05
Posts: 5355
Loc: English Riviera, UK
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No one has recorded a hit song using an arranger. But they have using a DAW. So just exactly where do you want to draw the line! Oh yes, I almost forgot: Even a chimp can operate a DAW! It does however take a genius & a pure musician to operate an arranger.
What truly stuns me: This topic is for would be BiaB enthusiasts. Yet it is now being derailed by those who have no interested whatsoever in the subject bar to find a place to dump their uncalled for opinion. It truly must be hard to be so bored with life... Download a free DAW (Cakewalk by Band Lab is a good one), then use your knowledge of BIAB to create a backing or song, you will find it is nothing like BIAB, so comparing the 2 is just nonsense. Arranger Keyboards, Organs, Pianos, Synths, Workstations (DAWs) Drum Machines etc. all require knowledge, skill and practice to get something good out of them, not just sticking chords in and letting a computer make something up for you. BIAB has its place, as has been mentioned as such in many of the replies, so I cannot see what you are getting upset about. (Each to their own) BTW. Ketron use audio for their styles yes, however they are still styles. Bill Bill
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English Riviera: Live entertainment, Real Ale, Great Scenery, Great Beaches, why would anyone want to live anywhere else (I�m definitely staying put).
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#509444 - 01/09/24 09:04 AM
Re: BiaB unique demos
[Re: cgiles]
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
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In my opinion, there is not much creative about jotting down some chords in BIAB (or similar), selecting a style, and hitting PLAY. i'm sure THAT could be done by a well trained chimp (well actually he wouldn't have to be that well trained). Seriously, what Diki said above could certainly be applied if that's your approach to starting a project. In fact, I myself use pre-recorded drum tracks or drum tracks I constructed using drum machine software and I always do this FIRST as I play along in my head. So I guess, in a way, I'm doing the same thing, just to a lesser degree. Where available, I ALWAYS prefer a live drummer, but only if he's good (with time and taste). Another problem with non-realtime programs like BIAB is the difficulty in using them (or their creations) on a gig. Ignore this if you aren't gigging. What do you do with a request that's not in your song file? Hum it? or maybe call a break and start furiously typing in chords? or just be honest and tell the requester that your computer doesn't know that.....yet. At least with an arranger, if you know it or can quickly bring it up from your digitized fake book, AND can play, you can probably hack it and get that $2.00 tip (that's where those years of music lessons come in) ![smile smile](/forum/images/graemlins/default_dark/smile.gif) . The point is, no one that can play even a little bit, is ever going to trade in their arranger KB for BIAB. They may buy/use it IN ADDITION TO their keyboard, especially in a way as described in Diki's post. But let's face it; that old adage is still true; 'you get what you pay for'. Your old, outdated laptop, your questionable taste and talent, and a $99+ program is not going to be a viable substitute for a Genos or PA5x. PLUS, doesn't the primary joy in this business come from PLAYING? JMO. chas I have to Totally agree with Chas on all his points made.. good post.[color:#FF0000][/color]
Edited by Dnj (01/09/24 09:06 AM)
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#509477 - 01/10/24 09:34 AM
Re: BiaB unique demos
[Re: Henni]
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14212
Loc: NW Florida
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@Henni…
My main issue is that you are spamming the General ARRANGER forum with examples and marketing of a product that is NOT an arranger…
From the dawn of their creation, arrangers have ALWAYS been real-time tools for creating live music. That they can also now fill in as passable workstations and audio playback tools doesn’t change the fact that, at their core, they’re a realtime music production keyboard. You want to create non-realtime backing tracks, a plethora of tools exist, and BIAB is simply one more way of doing it.
There are already forums available for discussion of BIAB, and I’m sure that most of our members that use the software participate.We appreciate the odd post showing how BIAB can aid backing track production, but not to the point of spamming the forum with endless examples.
As I am sure anyone spamming a BIAB forum with dozens and dozens of posts showing what you COULD do in real-time with an arranger, eventually the members are going to get fed up with the constant off-topic posting. Likewise, the moderators are going to get a bit peeved with you telling other members what they can and can’t post on a thread you created!
We welcome posts about off topic issues, but not to the point they become spam. Perhaps you could post on a forum specifically for DAW and software, and just leave a link?
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