Does anyone here know whether it's possible to select a User Program via MIDI message on the Roland Prelude or GW-8? For that matter, was it possible on early Roland arrangers like the G800 and G1000?

On the E-50 and BK-series, the user programs can be addressed with bank selection messages where CC00 = 122. But when I send an identical message to the Prelude it selects style number 247 and the User Program remains unchanged. Memory out of range, perhaps?

On the E-50 and BKs, the manuals state that the message to select a user program via MIDI must be sent on the "BASIC" channel. (Also, MIDI Program Change Rx has to be enabled, and I've done that.) I can't find anything in the Prelude manual or Roland's knowledge base that explains how to set the basic channel on the Prelude, or what it is by default.

I also connected my iPad with a MIDI monitoring app and manually selected a different User Program. I can see program changes corresponding to the tones, and even style changes. But nothing that correlates to the user program specifically. I also did a quick MIDI record (the Prelude has an on-board sequencer.) There's a whole bunch of SysEx at the start of the recording, but nothing new at bar 9 when I changed the user program. Roland users, please share your experience! Thanks!!

Remind me what a ‘User Program’ was again? Wasn’t it the same as a Performance is now? And a UPG on the G70/E80 series?

You often had to track the correct Midi codes for those in one of the sysex manuals or Reference Manuals.

One thing to always be aware is, there was never a code that changed the G70 era ‘User Program Set’ (UPS) or the BK9 series’ Performance List, so you could only select from what was already loaded.

Can’t help with the Prelude (never saw one ever!).

But to find the Basic Channel, try just resending the same command on Ch1, then Ch2, etc until you get a result…

On a slightly different note, I never ran multiple arrangers concurrently. I’d buy a new arranger, transfer as much of the data (User programs, styles etc) to the new one, edit it until it uses the new sounds and effects etc., then use that exclusively.

I never enjoyed trying to use two similar products with different ways of naming things and doing things. Simpler to have just the one, master the OS, then keep it until something MASSIVELY superior came out (usually takes over ten years from one to the next generation), and skip all the models with barely any real difference.

To be honest, I never found any legacy data that I couldn’t edit to sound superior on the new keyboard (thank you Roland for the Makeup Tools!), so once I got everything transferred over, I barely ever played the old one again (got a decent G70 I’m thinking of getting rid of soon!)

Sometimes, life is simpler if you just move on and don’t look back! 🎹

Yes Diki, Roland used several different terms for the same thing. A User Program is basically a "registration," i.e., all of the currently loaded settings for tones, styles, status of the sync start, etc.

I'm not trying to load a whole set. Just merely to select a specific User Program from the set that's already loaded. It might even be enough to select the "next" one or "previous" one (a relative command.)

It seems like Roland generally used channel 13 as the "basic" channel, and there are only 16 to try, so that's not too daunting. However, it bothers me that the Prelude manual makes no mention of a basic channel. In order to receive User Program changes via MIDI, that parameter has to be turned 'on'. If there is no user-accessible parameter set for the basic channel, I'm not sure how I would do that.

I know for a fact that the G/E series can be made to do what I want, and the BKs also. The Prelude was an odd duck that was sold circa 2009, right between those other models. I'll be really disappointed if it turns out not to be possible. Open to other ideas...

The Midi program change was designed to select just 1 voice on whatever channel it was sent on. (It also sends any other settings for that voice, IE Reverb etc)
If you try and change a total preset with this function on the same Midi input, it will confuse the hell out of the keyboard.
In the end you either need to choose one or the other, (Some keyboards allow this) however if you need both than you really need a separate Midi In for each. (Other ways are available in a limited sense, but unless you really know Midi they are best left alone)

Bill

Thanks Bill. Roland was on the forefront of MIDI development in the late 1980s, and it's well-implemented in many of their keyboards. As I said, I have direct selection of specific user program(s) working on the E-50 and the BK's so I know that it's possible on at least some Roland models. A thorough reading of the G-800 manuals suggests that it's possible on that generation of TOTL keyboards as well, although the starting memory address and sample commands are not given in the manuals (as they are with the G-70, E-50 and BK's.)

If someone has actually figured this out for the Prelude / GW-8, those are the parameters I need to know. Thanks!

I don’t think you are quite correct abacus, unless you are talking specifically about the Prelude, which I have no knowledge of.

Yes, bare PC#’s will select the Capital Tone (sound) of that number on just about anything. But WAY before the Prelude (Sound Canvas, I think, maybe even the MT-32) selected tones other than the Capitol Tone (the first one of any Variations) by preceding the PC command with two controller values, CC’s 00 and 32 (Controller MSB/LSB) which then multiplied the voice choices exponentially.

So much, in fact, that Roland could now start selecting Registrations with a single string of commands, even up to the 999 entry BK series Performance list. So a call for a Registration will NEVER get confused with a call for a Program change.

I think the Prelude was a sort of side project arranger to the crossover period between the G/E series and the ten years later BK. So it’s possible that maybe the codes for the UPG’s in it might be the same as either the G series or the BK series. Worth a try, at least!

On another note, I think this was the first Roland arranger to allow mp3/Wav playback from a memory card, quite a while before the BK7m and the subsequent BK arrangers.

Diki, the codes for the G/E series and BKs are the same, they are the first thing I tried.

According to owners manual for the BK7m, to recall a "Performance Memory" (formerly known as user program), send a program change on the basic channel to CC00 = 7AH (decimal 122) and I just used CC32 = 00H in an attempt to address a User Program between 1 and 128. No joy. As you mentioned, higher values of CC32 allow you to access the subsequent "pages" of performances.

I'm starting to think that this functionality isn't possible on the Prelude. There IS an ability to assign EITHER "Performance Up" OR "Performance Down" to the footswitch. It works, but there's nothing in the recorded MIDI to suggest a corresponding SysEx string or Program Change. When Roland published OS version 2 they added the ability to directly recall style variations and fills via MIDI message. But nothing about recalling user programs, nor a "basic" channel to receive such messages. Hmph.

Roland often obscured certain aspects of the MIDI implementation in Sysex manuals or Appendices etc. Current Roland website only offers the main manual, but it might not hurt to ask around and see if anything else came out back then that’s not available now.

There’s quite a lot of the basic OS panel functions that MIDI cannot address. Things like Perf Up/Down, Rit/Accel, 1/2 bar Fill, etc. etc.. And you simply have to find out for yourself which ones if you don’t have the full MIDI documentation…

After a pretty careful look at the Prelude’s manuals, I don’t see the slightest evidence or hint that you could ever externally select a Performance…

One interesting find… it seems the Prelude is the only pro/semipro arranger to have the ‘Catch + Last’ mode for the bend lever…. Play a note and bend it, but subsequent notes played are unbent until you move the lever back. This would allow you to do a double stop bend like guitarists and string players can. Let me know if this works for you!

So here's the answer from Roland Product Support:
Roland Product Support (Roland Corporation)

Nov 3, 2023, 3:41 PM PDT

Hello,

The Prelude and GW-8 do have "Performances" which save the Upper and Lower tone information and rhythm data to be recalled later, but there is not an option to select these via MIDI. You can select the Upper and Lower tones using bank select and program change messages, but there is not an option to select Performances this way on these models.

There is also not a MIDI message that can advance up or down the Performances, but you can assign a footswitch for this if needed.

womp, womp. I guess I'm in the market or will trade for a good used BK-5.

I played a friend’s BK-5. Felt cheap (keybed nowhere near the BK-9), sounded cheap (possibly cheaper DAC’s).

Thought you had a BK9? Why all this effort to work with an inferior keyboard?

I do have a BK9 here at home, but I want something more portable to use on vacation. I actually tried, and the BK9 is too wide to fit in the rear hatch of my car (it barely fits across the backseat!) I also think that it's too nice/valuable to risk the abuse it may encounter.

The BK7m doesn't have style editing capability, so that's out.

The E-A7 is also expensive. Although it has much advanced functionality, MIDI selection of User Programs is not expressly documented in the manuals. The E-A7 uses ten banks of ten UPGs instead of sixteen banks of eight. So even if MIDI selection of user programs is possible, the starting memory address may be different. Maybe it's worth bugging Roland Support about the E-A7 so that others will know whether it's possible to select UPGs via midi on THAT board, and how!

In the past, I've seen BK5s sell in the $3xx - $4xx range. For that price it would be a worthwhile acquisition. But I still have to sell the Prelude and some other boards that I've acquired through the years and don't play anymore.

Does the BK9 fit if not in the case? I know most 76 note cases are way oversized for the slender BK9! Only thing I found that wasn’t stupid big was a now discontinued SKB hard ABS case meant more for 73 Nord’s etc, but the BK9 JUST squeezed into. Bit too snug for flying, but fine for self handling.

I'm a home player, so all I have is a soft bag. Flying, I wouldn't even attempt to bring a keyboard. Maybe as checked baggage, but that means an expensive hard case (and a lot of weight!)

If I do a vacation car trip, there will be a lot of other stuff in the car. I would like to put the arranger in the rear hatch where it would be out of the sun, and importantly, out of sight!

I'm sure the BK5 is the best choice for this because it does everything I want and I can probably use the same UPGs on the BK9. Now I just have to trade with someone, or find one in good condition for a low price!

BK5 UPS (Performance List) data is not backwards compatible with the BK9, and vice versa. Individual styles are, but afaik, you can’t load a BK5 Performance List into a BK9, and you DEFINITELY can’t get a BK5 to read a BK9’s UPS.

There’s just too many differences between the two models.

So you definitely got some work duplicating your work. The old G70 series stored the data for each UPG (Performance) individually inside a folder of the UPS (Performance List) so you could go in and select them individually, but the BK series is just a .UPS file, not a folder.

Do you travel alone to gigs..? I used to fold forward the passenger seat in small cars and lay the keyboard front to back partly on it!