I am new to digital ensembles, coming from an acoustic piano rather than a keyboard background. I am ploughing my way diligently through all of the Technics keyboard videos, but the PR604 is different and completely unsupported in the secret of its differences. Is there anybody out there who is also trying to explore the possiblities of the PR604 and understand its idiosyncrosies? Can anybody make head or tail of the atrocious unsers manual? I have joined the Technote Club and find its magazines very helpful, but again there is the problem that most stuffis aimed at the KN6000/6500 owner and doesn't explain where and how the PR604 diverges.

Hi Leo:

Welcome aboard, if this Technics is your first it will take awhile to get familiar with it. Give it time, I'm still finding new things and re-discovering old ones.

I have a PR804 and still own a PR900.

The most popular and most sells are the KN models vs the PR's. With this in mind, you will find more support, and topics supporting the KN models. It's just sure numbers of KN's vs PR's that causes this.

The people here on this forum are friendly, but do speak their mind, and will gladly help with any questions you may have. The KN6000/6500/7000 are similiar in a lot ways to the PR604/804, but on the other hand different too.

If you have any particular questions in mind about the PR604 ask away.

Anthony

Hi Leo,

I'm at the low end of the PR group with the PR54. However, having owned a KN6000 I'm at least familar with much of the things it and the KN7000 can do and less so with the PR family of instruments but I too will be happy to try to answer a question if possible. I don't know where the PR604 stands from a compatibily stand point but I've been happy to find the PR54 is able to read and play things from the KN6000/6500/7000 keyboards. Although so far it doesn't go the other way.

Heather

Hi there Heather and Anthony.
Thanks for your kind messages of support and encouragement. My first dumb question is how do I get from a performance on the PR604 using MSA and all that stuff plus my own playing to an MP3 file of the complete performance on my computer? I have just found out that when I use easy record and save to disk as a MIDI file, all that is saved as far as the computer is concerned is my playing - none of the backing or rhythm, which is all recalled when I play back the disk on the PR604.
My second dumb question is why the Technotes disks specially mentioned as being suitable for the PR604 cannot be played direct - I get an error messaage - but have to be loaded. Leo.

a technics or midi file is only a control sequence requiring your piano or a pc soundcard for playback. To make an mp3 you must play the total performance (from sequencer say) from the audio line out of the piano into the line in of your pc soundcard into a wave recording program, then saving as mp3. Alternatively, and much superior, is to use the usb connection to the Audio Recorder on the supplied CD or other wave application. Mp3s from Audio Recorder are highly compressed but if you get that far there are plenty of free programs to provide mp3s of whatever quality level you require.

Midi is the only format suitable for direct play since a streaming 16 channel data flow. Technics format is many other things apart from sequence information and has to be loaded into piano ram to provide banks of patterns, pads, sounds, registrations, effects etc. You could make a multitrack technics song sequence, save it as midi and play it direct if you so wished, then you would just have a song.

Hi Leo:

Sounds like your new to Technics methodology. First, when you record using easy record, you need to save your recording in Technics Format FIRST. REGARDLESS what your final intentions are with the recording. This will always preserve your recording in true original format when you recorded it.

Once you save in Technics format which will require you to experiment, get the feel of the instrument and explore the popular question "WHAT IF"... You can always load the song back later if you need it, and not have to re-record it again.

MIDI - If you want midi, then you will find out the Technics does a so-so job. You will need to convert a Technics recording, using the APC to SMF convert. This will ONLY convert the APC part into separate midi type tracks. You will need to work on the melody by manually inputing settings, preferably using a third party midi program.

MP3 - Can't help you much here because I haven't gone that route yet, mainly because my PR and computer are pretty far apart. You will need to install the CD that came with the PR on your computer and follow the instructions. Connect the cable from the PR to computer. Play the PR live or play a recording while the computer part is recording it. Save it, you have your MP3, I think.

Technics format, and midi format are computer digital. MP3 is considered audio, total different types.

As for the Technote disks. The disks you have, have to be compatible with the PR604. The only models that are compatible are the: PR903/703/xxx PR902/702/xxx KN's 6000/6500/7000 If the Technote disks you have are not the format of the models mentioned. They will not work. Opps, the PR804 files will work too.

Hope all this helps.

Anthony

[This message has been edited by AnthonyCian (edited 11-18-2003).]

there is no work or third party programs required for melody parts Anthony, simply save as smf with gm header on.

Hi All,

I've not tried the MP3 recording yet but I've saved to Midi by doing what Anthony has said. The biggest problem is knowing how to set the track setting which will make a big difference in the out come.

Maybe Alec can give us the best track/part settings so that you get the optimun output with the least or no manual changes required.

The way I did it I had to add program (patch)controls manually to the melody and set the drum channel to 10 using PowerTracks.

For example do I need to set any tracks to Drum1 or Drum2 or do all the drums automatically go to track 8.

Best Wishes
Heather

Hi Alec:
You mentioned, "there is no work or third party programs required for melody parts Anthony, simply save as smf with gm header on."

Do you mean after using easy record w/APC, having six different instruments for melody, using panel memory to change these instruments, then using APC to SMF convert? Your saying when saved to SMF with gm headers on, all the melody instruments will be carried over into midi? I thought in past conversations that the R1/R2/Left were ignored when using APC to SMF convert. Plus my end results only had the first melody instrument playing all through the song. The other five didn't carry over. One would have to manually enter these in which does require extra work, and using a third party midi software program gets better results and more control on what you want done.

Did I miss something?

Anthony

Heather,
a midi file expects drums to be on track 10, therefore before smf to apc convert set track 10 to drums in track assign. If starting from an easy recording set track 8 to part 6 or some other unused part. After conversion use track merge to combine tracks 10 and 9 into track 10 (assuming you have converted both drums into 9 and 10, set 9 as drums too). Then when you save as smf the voices are saved as gm and the drums come out correct.

Anthony,
To create a midi file you play each track from beginning to end in turn. You should normally have one instrument per track, thus no extra work is required; if you wish to change instruments during the track you do so directly as you play, or put a control command in later. This can be done on the 7000 afterwards in step record, or directly by real time recording each melody track as would normally be the case for a midi file. If you want to use an external program then naturally that is possible and may be easier but is not necessary.
Panel memory does not write control information to the melody tracks and does not get saved in a midi file just as the technics control track is not saved, there is no standard midi file specification to cater for these proprietry technics easy play features, just as there is none for easy record which is also an easy play feature.

Hi Heather,
I've gotten into the habit of setting my apc to smf settings to the following

Track 9 Drum 2 = (Midi ch9 )
Track 10 Drum 1 = (Midi ch10 )
Track 11 Bass etc
Track 12 Accomp 1
Track 13 Accomp 2
Track 14 Accomp 3
Track 15 Accomp 4
Track 16 Accomp 5

The only reason I set it to them to these channels is that it matches the yamaha psr format ie they use these channels for their accomp. style parts.

Just saves me having to think about it, it's become habit.

best wishes
Rikki

Alec:

When recording a song using APC, panel memories, and save as Technics. One has everything there. To convert "THAT SONG" in midi, the person would need to go to APC/SMF convert. It does a wonderful job in coverting the APC part into midi tracks. BUT WHAT ABOUT THE R1/R2/LEFT if different instruments were used using panel memory? Ignored, and "extra work" is needed to add the melody parts exactly the way it was originaly when it was in Technics format.

If APC/SMF convert included converting the R1/R2/Left then NO extra work is needed, it's done, finished... ALL done in one process. But that isn't the case.

Anthony

That is not how I would go about making a midi file in the first place, but even if I did, I could edit it to suit in a matter of seconds and would need no third party applications. Knowing the fundamental differences between standard midi files and technics easy play files before you start is a help.

Hellooo Alec:

I believe what your saying is, if you know ahead of time that you want to create a midi then you would go about it in a different way. That is, think midi, correct? If so, that would be to difficult for me. Like to use easy record, panel memories etc...

Since you mentioned you could take a technics format song and edit it seconds to a midi. How? Remember Panel memories were used.

Anthony

exactly how I described before, in step record.

That may take you a few seconds, but for me a few hours. I don't have your expertise. Either way, another step in the process of converting to midi has to be done. If not, it wouldn't be complete. Which brings us back to, "extra work". Maybe I should re-phrase that. How does "Extra Step" sound?

Step 1: Choose a song, trying it out with different rhythm patterns, getting the feel of the sound arrangement.
Step 2: Setting up the song with with panel memory settings, etc.
Step 3: Finalize settings, practice.
Step 4: Take the plunge and record.
Step 5: Save in Technics Format.
Step 6: Edit if necessary. Resave if needed. Done! (Hopefully)

Step 7: Like to have midi.
Step 8: Use Track assign for drums.
Step 9: Use APC to SMF convert.
Step 10: Merge two drum tracks into one, (Track 10)
Step 11: Save as midi.

*At this stage would like to have the midi fully done, but not complete yet.

Extra Step 12: Step Record R1, R2, Left accordingly. In my case quite a chore.

Step 13: Re-save as midi. Done!

Anthony


[This message has been edited by AnthonyCian (edited 11-19-2003).]

a recipe for an average sounding midi, particularly on ordinary soundcards. Use gm voices in the backing, apc convert if having used the automatics. This gives a maximum of 9 tracks if all parts have been used which is not necessarily the case. Then real time record the melody/harmony with gm voices. I don't know of many midis that have 6 voice changes in the melody, but if that is what you want I would punch them in on different tracks, or just copy and paste verse/chorus etc. The midi then at least sounds as if it has been played with the feel of the instruments, rather than the sterile conversion of the playing feel of one rich voice changed to a different feel of a thinner one.

Wow! I think I got a bit lost with all that MIDI detail, but it will be very useful in the future. Now I understand a bit more about the instrument side (I think). But my immediate problem is the computer interface. There was an article on this in the Techplus magazine of October 2002 on making an audio CD recording. It is fairly straightforward in some ways, but ends with the cryptic message: "the process with ... PR604 pianos is actually far less complicated still, but that is a story for another day." What I actually want for an outcome from the PR604 is a wav file that I can convert to MP3 eventually via Nero (or an MP3plus file that is in the correct format: stereo (or dual mono), 80 bit, 44.1 kHz) so that it will be of good quality and compatible with my other music files so that I can cut, paste and edit it in Nero wave editor to use as a soundtrack. The computer software that came with the PR604 exceeds expectations in terms of lack of documentary explanation or support.
So, putting together what you have all said so far, I need to hook up the computer with a USB cable. No problem. Then what?
Leo.

everything in the Oct 02 article is still valid, just at that time there weren't so many 7000 etc owners so the soundcard route was more applicable to the majority of readers. Maybe it's time I wrote another for 7000/2400/2600/804/604/54 with usb?

To use the usb install the drivers from the cd before connecting the piano to the pc. It is most important to follow the steps in the instructions exactly, particularly the supplemental instructions if using XP.

Then install the Audio Recorder and the audio output will appear at full cd quality down the usb ready to record. If you have Nero you might have the Nero Wave Editor which you can also use, just choose the panasonic usb input in the device settings. The advantage of this is you can normalise or otherwise tweak the recording before burning to cd. Nero should also have the required mp3 codecs so that helps too.

OK Here I go!

First I assume that Track = Channel which are really different things. In midi drums can be on any track or number of tracks as long as they use midi channel 10.

Second on the PR54 when converting APC the melody for Right1, Right2 and the Left hand are preset to Tracks 1,2,3 and are labeled as such. If I do not change them the melody comes out fine minus the patch changes if I used Panel Memory to make the changes.

Tracks 5,6,7 can not be changed.

Track 8 is labeled Drums but can be set to any of the choices below.

Tracks 4,9-16 I can set to Drums1,Drums2,Bass, Accp1 - 5.

In the past I did the conversion then loaded the song into PowerTracks and set the drum tracks to channel to 10 and set my own channels for the other tracks. Then went to tracks 1 and 2 and inserted patch changes at the proper time marks.


Now to record a wave file so it can be converted to MP3 if you don't have the USB port and the Technics Recorder, you can buy a stereo patch cord that goes from one 1/4 inch stereo male plug to one stereo 1/8 inch male plug. Plug the 1/4 inch into your headphone jack and the 1/8 inch into your sound card line in.

Record your song using your favorite computer wave recorder. Don't bother with the midi because then the sound you record will be based on the sound card's instruments sounds.

Recording this way you record the actual sounds from the keyboard which are better than 95% of the sound cards you can buy.

Best Wishes
Heather

Basically yes, except that when I say track assign that is track assign in the sequencer record & edit menu, not track allocation in apc to smf convert which is different. There you will find you can change the assignments exactly as you desire including tracks 4, 5, 6 which you are not changing at the moment, then you do not need your changes in Power Tracks or bother about midi channels since it is all taken care of in the 7k. As you say melody tracks come out fine and need no conversion, only if you want to insert controllers after the event.

Hi Alec,

I had not tried changing tracks or channels in the sequencer but don't I have to do the apc to smf first so that all the midi stuff in in the sequencer. It's those track assignments that I'm confused about with track 8 saying drums and still being able to set Drums1 and Drums2 to other tracks. If I don't set the drums do they both go to track 8?

Heather

Hi Heather,
there are many ways of achieving the same result depending where you start. If you are starting from an easy record, then change the track assignments for unused tracks before the apc to smf convert, eg drums on track 10 etc and clearing unused technics easy play assignments. Then the gm save will come out correct with no tweaking needed in external programs etc.

Speaking of Drums...

Is it required to have only 1 drum track in midi format? I know about merging 2 drum tracks into 1 track assigning it to track 10 (Part10), but just thought of something.

What happens if Drum1 and Drum2 are different drum kits? The merge would only pick one kit and the second kit sound would not sound correctly.

So if I'm correct, the rule of thumb when merging 2 drum tracks is the drum kits have to be the same? Wrong/Right???

Comments/suggestions?

Anthony

a midi file has only one drum kit, unless it is the recent gm2 which many machines cannot reproduce. There is a difference between a midi file and a standard midi file which will play on anything, and a world of difference to a technics file. If you want to make a standard midi follow the specification, it is more than pushing an easy record button. You will find it useless compared to the proprietary sounds and features in technics mode. It's single advantage is compatibility across different machines.. providing you conform to the correct specification.

Setting conform aside, just interested in the Technics NX midi. Is it ok to have 2 drum tracks saving in NX midi? If so, no merge is necessary correct? Tracks, 10 (part10) and 11 (part11)??

GM2 midi, one or 2 drum tracks?

Anthony



[This message has been edited by AnthonyCian (edited 11-21-2003).]

you can do anything you like in an nx midi, it just won't be compatible with the vast majority of other equipment.

Hi All
Just bought a second hand PR804 but there were no discs with it for usb drivers etc.
does anyone know how i can get a copy of the relevant cd's
Thanks
Andrew

I also am very interested in downloading the drivers for my SX-PR804M. I actually bought it new and, a year of practice later, I'm finally ready to hook it up to my new Finale 2006 for some sequencing and, lo and behold, no CD in the plastic documentation bag!

I haven't found a lot of useful links at the manufacturer's site (I actually found one download link, but it went to a non-existant page!).

Incidentally, a low-fi solution may be had here: http://www.pasc.panasonic.com/epartr/PartslistChoice.asp?

Search by Part Number (notice radio button) and enter, for instance, PR804. It will cost you around 20 bucks and you'll have to wait for the shipping.