If a song is sequenced with the new KN7000 using a sound from one of the expansion cards, and the song is then played on a KN7000 without the expansion cards, does the sequencer pick a closely compatible sound or does it just not play?

Thanks

Larry

Hi Larry, Not quite sure what would happen. I've got EW03 and EW04 in my KN7000 but never use these voices if I'm going to share the files. I suppose a way round it would be to copy the voice into Sound Memory without actually editing it, use that version in the song and then include the Sound Memory option when saving the song.
I suppose there are two ways to check out the effect - record a song with the expansion voice and email it to someone with a KN7000 without expansion and see what happens, or, record a song and then remove the expansion cards and play it back on your own KN.

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Willum

I'm afraid copying to sound edit will be unsuccessful.

I use many user programmed sounds from EW samples, they will come out the wrong octave and innappropriate to the mix generally without the EW with default samples. I also generally use user programmed drums from EW and these can be silent without the card. So generally will not work, at least for my working methods - that's why we have mp3

Hi Larry;

That is one of the drawbacks of the expansion boards. If the person you send the song to does not have the board in their unit , the sound is distorted.

I have 3 boards some which have excellent sounds. I love the "Solo Soprano" in the last board but if I want the songs I recorded
using it to send to my friends . I make a CD of the songs and send it to them.

No problem for I enjoy making CDs.

Alex

When it comes to Expansion Boards; Where can I find more info on exactly what they include, costs, and how to install them.

Thanks SeeYa
Larry Hawk

for some EW details try the Technics page on http://www.colbecks-music.com. Installing is no problem, a few screws on the underside and carefully plug them in.

Alec, Much as I hate to disagree with you, I have managed to successfully duplicate the sounds from the EW03/EW04 cards into Sound Memory and then use them from there. I tried this by copying a bank of 20 sounds from the EW04 card to Sound Memories,and then copying the Sound Memories out to Floppy disc. I recorded some scales onto PC, using the original EW voices for later comparison. I then removed the expansion cards, 'Performance Initialised' and loaded the Sound Memories back from floppy. Comparing the voices now in Sound Memories, with the originals recorded earlier, all the sounds were identical. I then recorded a short sequence in Easy Record,using the voices in Sound Memories and sent this to another KN7000 owner, who did not have the expansion cards. I asked him to play and check the sequence against a list of the voices used in the sequence. He reported that everything was OK. He then recorded a short sequence, using these voices from his Sound Memory, and emailed it back to me. With the expansion cards still removed from my KN, the sequence played OK. I then switched off and re-fitted the cards and compared the voices returned to me, (now in Sound Memories) against the originals from the expansion cards - no apparent difference.
I may have been lucky in my choice of voices - I just took a random sample of 20 voices and used them. However, I have most of the EW voices on disc so can do some more comparisons.

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Willum

Woowww Willum,
Cees

Hi Willum,
probably the one that would test it, would be the soprano voice on the 4th card or some of the looped voices.
Piano's, guitars, strings might be deceiving to the ear?
If you're right, wow.

best wishes
Rikki

you just chose some favourable voices Willum, that's all.

I can play you my sequences using the widest variety of EW voices, both edited and particularly comprehensively used in composers and pads which sound completely wrong when played without the EW cards, with drums missing and all sorts of random effects, it was the first thing I noticed when reviewing the first 7k, and has not changed since.

As Rikki says use some specialist drums, vocals and strings and see how far you get. If the sounds are identical what on earth is the point of buying the cards if you cannot hear the clear differences in the samples?

I have to side with Alec on this one, too. I've used some EW01 sounds that transferred without a hitch, while others totally ruined the song, requiring a new recording. This was done using a kn6k for the sequencing and a kn6500 for playback and recording. But, like Alex says, when burning and sending CD's to family and friends, go crazy and show off all your sounds.

Alec..Thanks for that Web Site. It's got everything: http://www.colbecks-music.com./

SeeYa,
Larry Hawk

[QUOTE]Originally posted by lahawk:
[B]Alec..Thanks for that Web Site. It's got everything

cheers, Larry, it certainly should have!

back to the similar sounds; of all the thousands of substitution combinations possible in the scenario of missing EWs there must be some combinations where the effect is less than with others, but that does not prove anything other that there may be some combinations where some pairs of ears cannot hear much of a difference.

Its just like saying you can't hear the difference between a steinway and a bosendorfer, or a b&h and a yamaha trumpet.

If you take the clarinet soloist and put it in sound edit and turn off the other two samples, just leaving the clarinet and compare it to the orchestral clarinet in ew02 they are quite obviously recordings of different instruments.

This is easily proved by duplicating them both in sound edit and then reversing the clarinet samples in the second pair without altering anything else, which will negate the effect of all other differences in the sound edit suite programming between the two samples, and simulate a nearest sample substitution in the event of an original not being present.

If you now compare the two sets of sounds they remain instantly recognisably completely different instruments, even though the tone, amplitude, filter and pitch mapping in the second set has been reversed, showing the original sample recording is the primary arbiter of instrumental timbre. This remains true even if you leave the other samples in the soloist clarinet, and play the top octave which is starting to get out of range anyway, you can still hear the different instruments.

Do the same 4 sound comparison with the classic clarinet, which uses a different sample again with no natural vibrato recorded and is arguably a closer match - though still obvioulsy a completely different instrument, with the EW clarinet, and the difference is again instantly clear in a direct comparison, and follows the sample quite independently of the sound edit parameters. Thus copying into sound edit and then substituting a different sample will not give you the same voice.

If you play one and then the other, particularly with a time lag for card swapping, or loading etc between them, relying on aural memory, I can easily see most people saying... it's a clarinet!

However with a direct A/B comparison of the type I describe you only need to play one note to easily recognise the difference.

You just need a more discriminating test, so I'm afraid there is no "wow" involved here

Hi Alec,
maybe my 'woowww' reduces a little to 'woww', but my 'wow' to the spirit of research Willum did, remains, independently to the outcome. I like that. And besides that it heighten the information about the quality of products due to the 'critical consumers'('wow' how did I say that ). Just kidding.
Cees




[This message has been edited by cees (edited 03-25-2003).]

'Ear 'Ear

If you play a song that was sequenced on say...a KN3000 and play it through a KN7000, you may expect to hear an enhanced and a better sounding song. As we all know this is not the case . In fact I have found the song to be not even close to the original sequence.
Now if you sequence that same song on a KN6500 and play it on a KN7000 and the sound results are nearly the same. Probably because the 6500 comes closer to the 7000 sound attributes. However 'NEARLY THE SAME' is the key phrase.
As Alec has said " there may be some combinations where some pairs of ears cannot hear much of a difference"
I would think that this also applies to the original 7000 and newly installed expansion boards...'NEARLY THE SAME'
SeeYa,
Larry Hawk


[This message has been edited by lahawk (edited 03-25-2003).]

Quote "If the sounds are identical what on earth is the point of buying the cards if you cannot hear the clear differences in the samples?"
I think there is some confusion related to my last posting on this thread. I am not comparing sounds on the KN7000 with sounds on the EW cards - that would be pointless.
I'm not saying that the EW card sounds are identical to built-in sounds. What I said was that the EW sounds which I copied to and played back from Sound Memories, sounded identical to those same sounds which I earlier recorded to my PC using the EW card and USB link. There was no time delay involved in the comparison - I played back the original EW card sounds from PC, through the KN7000 and directly compared the same sounds from Sound Memories.
I am in the midst of carrying out some further investigations with respect to EW sounds and will post back with my findings.


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Willum

Hi,
I suppose if a sequence was recorded that totally depended on the use of an EW sound ie soprano voice as melody, then it could be recorded as an audio file, and it wouldn't matter whether the other kn7 owner had the expansion boards or not.

Only drawback would be that they would need the SD audio writing kit and a decent sized sd card. Both worthwhile investments in my humble opinion, as the audio functions on the KN7 is one of the great features that really makes it stand out from the rest.


best wishes
Rikki

Willum, you are precisely comparing the sounds on the cards with the sounds in the 7k because when you remove the cards the sounds (samples) in the 7k are substituted for the sounds (samples) that were in sound memory with the card in place, all other parameters remaining the same.

Thus there's no confusion, the proposition was that copying the ew sounds to memory and then removing the card produced a sound from memory that you could not tell apart from the original ew sounds. This clearly cannot be the case.

I believe recording has only served to confuse the issue for you. You can prove this in minutes. Put some sounds from the cards in memory twice. Take out the card, and resave one of each pair of memories with the new default inbuilt samples. Put the card back in, the first memory will contain the card samples again, the second memory will contain the inbuilt samples. You will hear a clear difference between each of the sounds in direct and instant A/B comparison.

Hi Alec, Thanks for your comments and enlightenment. From what you say, it would seem that I have the wrong end of the stick as far as the sound generation process is concerned. Am I right in assuming that when a sound is 'copied' to the editor, it is not the actual sample which is copied, just a pointer to the source location of the sample - say EW-04 or KN built-in sample ? This being the case, if the original source of an edited sound was within the EW-04 ROM and the card is removed, then the KN software presumably substitutes an address to a 'similar' sample, within the built-in samples - if it can find one or silence if it can't

When delving a bit deeper, I noticed that when the card was not present, as you mentioned above, some of the sounds, particularly effects type, did not play - Dynamic Bell, Small Bell, Oriental Hit, to mention a few. The Soprano Solo produced a strange effect. The delayed strong vibrato, which is normally present over the entire range of the voice, when the EW card is present, only appears on the top octave, when the card is removed and the 'copied' sound used.
So, after all this, it looks like the answer to Larry's original question is - in some cases a closely compatible sound may be chosen by the KN7000 but don't rely it
Something else which I tried : I copied an EW-04 sound ( Jazz Guitar Mute ) to Sound Memory and then stored this 'copied' sound into panel memory A1. I then stored the original EW-04 sound directly into panel memory A2. The EW-04 card was then removed and a comparison made between the sounds in A1 and A2. The sound in A1 was a close match to the original EW-04 sound but the sound in A2 now selected the KN7000 built-in Mute Guitar, which was quite different to the Jazz Guitar Mute. Presumably, the relative closeness of the sound in A1, to the original EW-04 Jazz Guitar Mute, can be attributed to the different filtering, envelope and editing parameters, copied over from the EW-04 sound, albeit that the prime sample must then be derived from the KN7000 built in sample.

On a slightly different subject : Having now listened to every sound on the EW-03 and EW-04 cards, I did notice that a few on the EW-04 have some rather nasty noise present on them - at least on my setup. It would be interesting to know if anyone else has noticed this. Some of the sounds in question are : in the Vocal group, M&F Choir Ooh, M&F Choir Aah, Heavenly Voices and in the Harp/String group, Softly Speaking. The noise seems particularly prominent around the G4 area of the keyboard. I am referring to the Original sounds, not 'copied' versions.

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Willum

Hey,everybody --
Now you really have me confused!
Because I used a KN2000 for years, I had tailored close to 100 combinations of styles (some of them altered) and sounds(some in sound memory) and saved them to panel memory and then to floppy disk.
When I got my Kn7000, I had the chore of replicating them on the KN7000 because although the KN7000 had superior voices, it did not necessarily have the voices nor the styles that would really fit a particular song.
The converted Kn2000, 3000, 5000, 6500 styles from the Technics website solved the style problem, and I thank you deeply for providing them -- It saved a whale of a lot of time and work.
By copying the special sounds that I wanted to use from disk to sound memory, the sounds appeared to be identical to those that I had used before on the KN2000 (played through an external sound system for comparison).
The point of all this is that I assumed that the actual sound samples were copied from disk to sound memory, at least it appeared so.
Were they simply "tweaks" of the new KN7000 built in samples?
Confused (but happy),
Walt

precisley Willum, by Jove you've got it!
in the same way that a missing preset style from previous model will be replaced by the closest equivalent, a missing sample will be replaced by an equivalent. Thus it is a hit and miss affair. If you just record a piano you "may" not notice a great deal of difference in playback of a recording. If you specialist edit sounds tailored for each song, particularly using them in composer and pads with defined internal pitch points and chord modify changes designed for the progressions in the song as I do, you will notice far more problems with replaced samples.

The silence is when there is no equivalent sample built in.

The soprano only works for 2 octaves... the natural vocal range. Either side is other samples, the top one from a built in sample with vibrato added in the edit, not recorded in the sample. Thus this octave is the same with the card removed. Many sounds are "padded" out with sounds not necessarily produced naturally to prevent silent keys beyond the natural lower and upper range of the voice.

As for the Jazz Guitar Mute, this is just the same point I made in the experiment in my previous post. However this needs to be done in sound memory for accurate results, this exactly reproduces the effect of the removal of the card while still having the card in place, panel memory will just produce extra variables. Even though the entire mapping of tone, amplitude, pitch, filter, LFOs and effects are identical, the primary arbiter of timbre is the base sample. Change that, and you've effectively changed the recording to that of a new instrument.

The "nasty noises" are programmed modulation effects. For M&F Choir Ooh, M&F Choir Aah, Heavenly Voices and Softly Speaking they are easily removed in filter envelope by flattening decay 1 to 100 for all active samples.

best regards

you're welcome



yes.
The reasons are many but basically the 2k did not have that many samples, so the chances of the many more 7k samples being able to cover most circumstances are good.

Thanks Alec and All,
That explains a lot about what to expect when saving setups. If I had understood this in the beginning, It would have saved a lot of frustration.
Anyway, it all worked out and will be easier in the future.
Cheers,
Walt

Wow to Willum and Alec, thanks both for your thorough analysis in the technique of technics sample technology. It is instructive. No kidding now
Cees

I just would like to know why as an example, a breathy tenor sax sequenced on a 3000 would sound like a high pitched kazoo on a 7000 and if there is anything that can be done on either the recording end(3000) and/ or the recieving end(7000)
Thanks
Larry Hawk

because the octave has changed, shift the track 12 semitones in the mixer.