I have to side with Alec on this one, too. I've used some EW01 sounds that transferred without a hitch, while others totally ruined the song, requiring a new recording. This was done using a kn6k for the sequencing and a kn6500 for playback and recording. But, like Alex says, when burning and sending CD's to family and friends, go crazy and show off all your sounds.

Alec..Thanks for that Web Site. It's got everything: http://www.colbecks-music.com./

SeeYa,
Larry Hawk

[QUOTE]Originally posted by lahawk:
[B]Alec..Thanks for that Web Site. It's got everything

cheers, Larry, it certainly should have!

back to the similar sounds; of all the thousands of substitution combinations possible in the scenario of missing EWs there must be some combinations where the effect is less than with others, but that does not prove anything other that there may be some combinations where some pairs of ears cannot hear much of a difference.

Its just like saying you can't hear the difference between a steinway and a bosendorfer, or a b&h and a yamaha trumpet.

If you take the clarinet soloist and put it in sound edit and turn off the other two samples, just leaving the clarinet and compare it to the orchestral clarinet in ew02 they are quite obviously recordings of different instruments.

This is easily proved by duplicating them both in sound edit and then reversing the clarinet samples in the second pair without altering anything else, which will negate the effect of all other differences in the sound edit suite programming between the two samples, and simulate a nearest sample substitution in the event of an original not being present.

If you now compare the two sets of sounds they remain instantly recognisably completely different instruments, even though the tone, amplitude, filter and pitch mapping in the second set has been reversed, showing the original sample recording is the primary arbiter of instrumental timbre. This remains true even if you leave the other samples in the soloist clarinet, and play the top octave which is starting to get out of range anyway, you can still hear the different instruments.

Do the same 4 sound comparison with the classic clarinet, which uses a different sample again with no natural vibrato recorded and is arguably a closer match - though still obvioulsy a completely different instrument, with the EW clarinet, and the difference is again instantly clear in a direct comparison, and follows the sample quite independently of the sound edit parameters. Thus copying into sound edit and then substituting a different sample will not give you the same voice.

If you play one and then the other, particularly with a time lag for card swapping, or loading etc between them, relying on aural memory, I can easily see most people saying... it's a clarinet!

However with a direct A/B comparison of the type I describe you only need to play one note to easily recognise the difference.

You just need a more discriminating test, so I'm afraid there is no "wow" involved here

Hi Alec,
maybe my 'woowww' reduces a little to 'woww', but my 'wow' to the spirit of research Willum did, remains, independently to the outcome. I like that. And besides that it heighten the information about the quality of products due to the 'critical consumers'('wow' how did I say that ). Just kidding.
Cees




[This message has been edited by cees (edited 03-25-2003).]

'Ear 'Ear

If you play a song that was sequenced on say...a KN3000 and play it through a KN7000, you may expect to hear an enhanced and a better sounding song. As we all know this is not the case . In fact I have found the song to be not even close to the original sequence.
Now if you sequence that same song on a KN6500 and play it on a KN7000 and the sound results are nearly the same. Probably because the 6500 comes closer to the 7000 sound attributes. However 'NEARLY THE SAME' is the key phrase.
As Alec has said " there may be some combinations where some pairs of ears cannot hear much of a difference"
I would think that this also applies to the original 7000 and newly installed expansion boards...'NEARLY THE SAME'
SeeYa,
Larry Hawk


[This message has been edited by lahawk (edited 03-25-2003).]

Quote "If the sounds are identical what on earth is the point of buying the cards if you cannot hear the clear differences in the samples?"
I think there is some confusion related to my last posting on this thread. I am not comparing sounds on the KN7000 with sounds on the EW cards - that would be pointless.
I'm not saying that the EW card sounds are identical to built-in sounds. What I said was that the EW sounds which I copied to and played back from Sound Memories, sounded identical to those same sounds which I earlier recorded to my PC using the EW card and USB link. There was no time delay involved in the comparison - I played back the original EW card sounds from PC, through the KN7000 and directly compared the same sounds from Sound Memories.
I am in the midst of carrying out some further investigations with respect to EW sounds and will post back with my findings.


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Willum

Hi,
I suppose if a sequence was recorded that totally depended on the use of an EW sound ie soprano voice as melody, then it could be recorded as an audio file, and it wouldn't matter whether the other kn7 owner had the expansion boards or not.

Only drawback would be that they would need the SD audio writing kit and a decent sized sd card. Both worthwhile investments in my humble opinion, as the audio functions on the KN7 is one of the great features that really makes it stand out from the rest.


best wishes
Rikki

Willum, you are precisely comparing the sounds on the cards with the sounds in the 7k because when you remove the cards the sounds (samples) in the 7k are substituted for the sounds (samples) that were in sound memory with the card in place, all other parameters remaining the same.

Thus there's no confusion, the proposition was that copying the ew sounds to memory and then removing the card produced a sound from memory that you could not tell apart from the original ew sounds. This clearly cannot be the case.

I believe recording has only served to confuse the issue for you. You can prove this in minutes. Put some sounds from the cards in memory twice. Take out the card, and resave one of each pair of memories with the new default inbuilt samples. Put the card back in, the first memory will contain the card samples again, the second memory will contain the inbuilt samples. You will hear a clear difference between each of the sounds in direct and instant A/B comparison.

Hi Alec, Thanks for your comments and enlightenment. From what you say, it would seem that I have the wrong end of the stick as far as the sound generation process is concerned. Am I right in assuming that when a sound is 'copied' to the editor, it is not the actual sample which is copied, just a pointer to the source location of the sample - say EW-04 or KN built-in sample ? This being the case, if the original source of an edited sound was within the EW-04 ROM and the card is removed, then the KN software presumably substitutes an address to a 'similar' sample, within the built-in samples - if it can find one or silence if it can't

When delving a bit deeper, I noticed that when the card was not present, as you mentioned above, some of the sounds, particularly effects type, did not play - Dynamic Bell, Small Bell, Oriental Hit, to mention a few. The Soprano Solo produced a strange effect. The delayed strong vibrato, which is normally present over the entire range of the voice, when the EW card is present, only appears on the top octave, when the card is removed and the 'copied' sound used.
So, after all this, it looks like the answer to Larry's original question is - in some cases a closely compatible sound may be chosen by the KN7000 but don't rely it
Something else which I tried : I copied an EW-04 sound ( Jazz Guitar Mute ) to Sound Memory and then stored this 'copied' sound into panel memory A1. I then stored the original EW-04 sound directly into panel memory A2. The EW-04 card was then removed and a comparison made between the sounds in A1 and A2. The sound in A1 was a close match to the original EW-04 sound but the sound in A2 now selected the KN7000 built-in Mute Guitar, which was quite different to the Jazz Guitar Mute. Presumably, the relative closeness of the sound in A1, to the original EW-04 Jazz Guitar Mute, can be attributed to the different filtering, envelope and editing parameters, copied over from the EW-04 sound, albeit that the prime sample must then be derived from the KN7000 built in sample.

On a slightly different subject : Having now listened to every sound on the EW-03 and EW-04 cards, I did notice that a few on the EW-04 have some rather nasty noise present on them - at least on my setup. It would be interesting to know if anyone else has noticed this. Some of the sounds in question are : in the Vocal group, M&F Choir Ooh, M&F Choir Aah, Heavenly Voices and in the Harp/String group, Softly Speaking. The noise seems particularly prominent around the G4 area of the keyboard. I am referring to the Original sounds, not 'copied' versions.

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Willum