Hi all,

During my organ-playing days (Yamaha Electones), the expression pedal (right leg)
was VERY important. It controls volume, fill-ins and program changes etc. Since switching to arrangers, I had a sustain foot controller only.

I am curious to know how often do you use the expression pedal for arrangers?
Specifically, how do you handle those do loud and soft sections in a song? Do
you use the expression pedal or internal controls?

Greetings Freestyle: A day without an expression pedal on your Technics, is like a day out of office for Bill Clinton, you don't really have total control, of volume and expression. Former Organ Players will yearn for one, when converting to Arranger
Keyboards. Lots of luck. ARJ

Kind of like when you get married. You have to find a different way to get what you want. Sort of crimps your style, so to speak. The longer you do things as a bachelor the more set in your ways you become. The more set in your ways you become the harder it is to break out of them. What happens? You quit? Divorce? OR..... You live with your old ways and make the best of it. (Tolerate it!) It works but never is it really great and will never be what it could be. OR....... You access what you have to work with, determine to use fully the positives of the new union and with a good deal of work and effort finally reward yourself with a new blissful and rewarding life. So it is with old organ players matching themselves up with a new high-tech keyboards. Come-on you guys, where is the thing I put my old number thirteen on to get this thing to come alive and give me some expression? I want my old swell pedal. For years it worked great and I thought it was swell. (Do I have to hold up a sign? Maybe just a giggle?) Anyway guys, set in your ways? Just like marriage, you got a new partner. She’s young and got a spirit of her own. Wild, and wants to go! She’s got everything in the right places and just looking for you to turn her on. Come on grandpa, touch me in the right places and we can make music together. I got touch control baby. I can get real, real sensitive if your set me up right. That’s right, play with me. Got something else! I like it and you will too. Don’t be afraid! Turn me on! Try my after touch, but watch out. You want to see some real expression? Play with it. Get me turned on and you will be too. See, when you get used to it, after touch is kind of like an after burner, gives things a real kick. Play with me my love and I’ll sing ‘Light my Fire’, like you never heard it before. Give me time and you will be so glad you traded in one number thirteen foot for ten very sensitive fingers. Use your feet to do what feet do. Carry you over to play with me. The fingers? Oh those sensitive fingers. Play me tender, play me hard. Play me soft and play me loud. I will respond and please the crowd.

FreeStyle, learn what’s inside, you wont regret it. Art, I like your Clinton stuff but former organ players can choose to be set in their ways and remain organ players, playing on an arranger keyboard, or with a little work, experimentation and a new mindset expand their horizons and become an orchestra with the ability to play and sound like every instrument in the band. Make your choice. We are free men living in a free country with the liberty to make free choices. I perceive an organ and an arranger keyboard as having the same ability and purpose: they make music for the enjoyment of people. Also a Buick and an Indy car. They both move people and are for the enjoyment of people. If an arranger keyboard is played like an organ in the area of expression, you will never achieve the full potential of expression built into the keyboard. So with the cars. If the Indy car is driven like the Buick the full expression of handling built into the Indy car will never be realized. Yet, people will still enjoy them.

These ideas have been tossed around many times on this forum. People being people will always differ in perception of values. Good? Bad? Don’t know but sure is good for verity. Look at it this way. What works for you, works for you.

Question: How do I tell if my playing is OK. People will say they like it because they do. People will say they like it because they are kind. People will say they like it because it sounds better than RAP. So what? I play because I like it. If others don’t like it they can go home. Just experiment. You just might like yourself more than you did before. Ruthie just tapped me on the shoulder and said let’s go to bed. Right now I like that the most so good night guys.

Grandpa Doug

Great expressions Grandpa! Art, thanks for your feedback too!

I agree, an open mind to learn and explore will always produce results beyond our expectations.

I'm gonna get hot with my 1400 tonight and have it sing Fly Me To The Moon - Tony Benett style!

FreeStyle,
I started out with the same mindset and used an expression pedal. I also have a set of Roland Midi Bass pedals that I use when I play the keyboard as a two manual organ.
The bottom line is that I now only use the expression pedal with the bass pedal/organ setup, and not when the keyboard is played as an arranger keyboard.
With the new organ voices of the KN7000, the keyboard sounds better than most full blown organs, which I use occaisonally for accompianment, ETC.
Otherwise, it's arranger all the way, and no expression pedal needed.
Regards,
Walt

I play a Roland G1000 and not a Technics..I have found the need to use an expression pedal a must..most of the time I use it to bring in a "color" sound.. for example, while playing a piano in the right hand, i can bring in a color sound, maybe organ,guitar , etc..The expression pedal also allows me to bring in left hand "color" sounds such as choir or strings when desired...You can also use an expression pedal to change or blend one sound to another...I think you can see why I say the expression pedal is a must...I think Technics has some of the same assignable features as the Roland..Is that correct?

I guess you're right Fran, but I don't know which features on the Roland you are referring to, cause I have none. But the KN7000 can assign both initial touch and expression pedal setting to each individual part. So you can "adjust" the color of your sound either by hand or foot.

You are overlooking an important use of the pedal...for expression. I use the panel memory setups for changing sounds, tempos, or anything that might be needed in a song, and using my pedal to move up or down through the panel memories to get the expression I desire. It's smooth and effortless, and I can add pressure to the keys to gain another type of expression. This machine is amazing!

Bud,

Expression pedal! Expression pedal is a pedal built sort of like like a teeter totter. Place your foot on it. When exerting pressure with the toe part of your foot the keyboard, either in total or in part, will increase and with the heal will decrease the volume. Can be adjusted under the window ‘Foot Controllers’. Under that same window you will see ‘Foot Switches’. There is provision for two single switches and technics has a four switcher that can be programed also. Six foot switches in total. Bud I think you are talking about the foot switches. I don’t know what Fran is referring to and I think Ad Rouw is scratching his head too. What we are talking about here is the Expression pedal, the pedal sometimes called on an organ the swell pedal. The pedal that makes the organ louder or softer. In other words, volume control for the organ, the only way to make an organ loud or softer. Just don’t want some poor guy wasting hours trying to find out how to change his panel memories with his expression pedal. Ruthie has a way of changing my expression, but we won’t go into that here.

Grandpa Doug

It's kinda like saying that the gas pedal in your car will no longer be on the floor. You now control the speed of your automobile by how hard you bang on the sterring wheel.
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Larry Hawk

Well said, Larry. (See me previous posts on the subject). As long as keyboard makers continue to make the expression pedal an "optional extra" then users will remain confused about its use. Touch sensitivity is NOT A REPLACEMENT for a properly used expression pedal. Incidentally, on one of my previous Yamaha keyboards the expression pedal could be assigned to other functions, such as varying the tempo of the rhythm.
Mike O'R

Actually, as an old Lowrey organ player, like many a keyboard player, I am familiar with the expression pedal. It controlled the volume of the Lowrey organ, and was also used to switch to a minor key by a sidewards move of your foot. You should have heard some of the "expressions" it brought out of me while switching to a minor chord and the volume was either muted or blasted. I hated that pedal! I know the foot switch does a different job, but it also does the job that my old expression pedal did...and more. And, nowadays, my expressions are much nicer.

This is written for no other reason than I like to talk and I like to use words. For listing to me blabber I have conjured up a contest. There is a prize for the winner also. I thought the prize might be considered invaluable. When I asked Ruthie for her opinion she said ‘What’s That?’ A rendition by You? Well, I told her, it will give me something to do. Besides, not everybody walks out of the room when I interpret things. Just because you do..... Come on, be nice. So hears' my mouth via my fingers.

Quote: “Touch sensitivity is NOT A REPLACEMENT for a properly used expression pedal”. So very true. True, true and true. Question: When is an expression pedal (swell pedal) proper? Answer: When used on an organ or a keyboard set up so as to be played as an organ. Up until recently organs had no touch sensitivity and limited after touch control, mostly on pipe organs. On the keyboards of today some of the organ voices still do not respond to key sensitivity. Therefore this pedal was mandatory on organs and is provided as an extra for those few who purchase a keyboard and want to set up and play it as an organ. No other way to increase or decrease the volume while playing on the thing set up as an organ. Now that the question of when an expression or swell pedal is proper let us delve into how an expression pedal is ‘properly used’. An expression or swell pedal is used to give a STERILE (no expression) organ sound, expression. You might say to swell up or down (swell pedal) in greater or lesser amounts of volume. Kind of like our bodies. We get a swelling and then we say the swelling is going down. A properly used expression pedal therefore is used to give an otherwise constant tone, life, excitement or the term ‘expression’. A properly used expression pedal brings up the suggestion of an improperly used pedal. How can an expression pedal be improperly used? A proper expression pedal use on either an organ or a keyboard programed that way can be improperly used as a foot rest and or to keep time, a favorite of many organ enthusiasts. Occasionally used to give accent to a sneeze or cough or among other things such as an itch or twitch in ones leg. Silence or a burst of volume when triggering a side switch on the pedal of an organ is another favorite trick of misuse on organs.

As for keyboards. If an expression pedal was essential for the performance of an arranger keyboard it would certainly be included as standard equipment by the manufacture. The fact that the expression pedal is able to be purchased as an extra is an indication it is an item to be used for a particular situation, not the normal use of the keyboard. The design of our keyboards is such that the method designed into it for full and complete expression of the same, is a completely different approach for expression, more refined and sensitive to that end than the organ approach. Therefore when an expression pedal is proper for the situation is when used on an organ or a keyboard set up and used as an organ. When an expression pedal is ‘properly used’ it is used for degrees of volume. When not properly used, is as stated above, for keeping time etc.. Larry, a great similitude, and Mike you are so right. As long as they are offered to keyboard players there will always be confusion. Confusion when there is reluctance to overcome an ingrained habit when using completely different technology. As an example: I can play my saxophone two different ways. I will take my sax or clarinet out of the case, slap on the mouthpiece and blow it. Blow harder and it is louder. Turn on my keyboard and play the sax. Hit the key lighter or harder and that is how I control loudness. When using my real sax I apply more and less pressure to the reed which causes the pitch of the note to be flat or sharp, which gives me vibrato. On my keyboard this is done electronically. Either programed in with the sound or triggered with after touch. The pitch of the note is varied by making it flat and sharp. Therefore complete control as on the real thing. Not so when using the expression pedal. The best that can be done to achieve vibrato is to wiggle the pedal back and forth to vary the volume. Very hard to simulate. Besides, true vibrato is varying the pitch, not the volume. The ability of an arraigner keyboard to reproduce these effects is the whole purpose and design of the product. The use of a leslie tone cabinet on a hammond organ is a mechanical example to accomplish this. I wonder how many know how and why the leslie will give this effect. Anybody that can come up with the physics of this, I might, if I have the time, energy or the music, to send you my rendition of ‘How Great Thou Art’ done on either the 6 or 7 thousand. I have both. Come to think about it, I will need the music, so send it with your entry if you think you got the right answer. Just send it to Dougies Dumb Contest, C/O SnythZone BBS Technics Discussion Forum in the Expression Pedal Slot. Otherwise just hit the reply button at the bottom of this page. Same thing. Ruthie says by the time I get done explaining something to her it’s time to go to bed. If you find me a bit too wordy I would like to say goodnight now.

Grandpa Doug, author and administrator of Dougies Dumb Contest. Ruthie will be the official judge so you all got a chance.

How I have used the expression pedal.
1-No rhythm--As you listen to an orchestra playing waltz, semi classical selection, or a solo instrument---they do not play at a constant volume. The changes in volume do go beyound that of the touch sensitivity of the keys on the keyboard. Sometimes down to a whisper, returning moments latter.
2-I use it for my solo part, Rt1, Rt2. When the pedal is at ful volume, I am playing a solo. When I am singing, that same sound is lowered, putting it in the backround. No buttons to press. Nice.
3-I also use it for my left hand sounds. It's nice to hear a backround sound vari, it adds alot.

On that note I will say, I never take the pedal to a job, it is another thing to worry about. There is enough going on without adding more stuff. The one time I did use it, I couldn't remember if I was full volume or half, or whatever. It is a good feature, I imagine with a lot of patients it would bring a player to another level of playinmg.
In my humble opinion, John C.

While Grandpa is right that Touch Sensitivity can be used to 'swell" a sound with your right hand, it does nothing to increase the volume of the rhythm with your left hand. Unless one plays like FonzyBear of the Muppets...You know, like a mechanical pounding up and down with the right and lefy hand, kinda like the characters in 'It's a Small World' at Disney .(annoying after a while)

If you notice, when you press the intro and ending button, sound and rhythm swell up and down together, in a flowing, appeasing manor. I don't believe you can achieve this whole effect using only Touch Sensitivity with your right hand, unless I'm missing something. I like to be able to increase the rhythm volume along with the sound volume. I think this is where the expression pedal does it's job.

When you play your sax, you only have to play the sound, and adjusting the volume is controlled by the amount of air you supply. (Ruthie say Doug has a lot of air). There is no rhythm volumn to worry about, thus no expression pedal on a sax.

Therfore, it is my belief that the expression pedal can be used in conjuction with touch sensitivity, and a viable option to have . At the very least, it's there if you want it, even if it's used only as an old security blanket. After so many years with a swell pedal, it's tough to do away with a friend who was always there by your side, lying there, on the floor, waiting to be acknowleged.

Grandpa..what was the contest question again ?
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Larry Hawk

One of the beauties of the the 7000 is the ample supply of ORGAN (Hammond, Wurlitzer, Lowrey, Eminent, etc.) sounds all of which have NO TOUCH SENSITIVITY (quite right for authenticity!). How does Grandpa manage these sounds - with not expression at all? What a pity if this is so as these instruments rely on expression pedal operation. While we are at it, I have treated the STRINGS on my keyboard to remove touch sensitivity for the same reason. Strings by their very nature rise and fall on long notes and an EP is the only way to do this effectively. Long live the EP! ;>)
Mike O'R

Grandpa Doug,
I came up with this answer in respose to your contest question:

All mechanical rotary tremolo systems, including Leslie's, are based on the Doppler-effect. Discovered by Austrian mathematician and physicist Christian Doppler (1803-1853) in the early nineteenth century, the Doppler-effect is the apparent variation in pitch that a stationary listener hears from a moving sound source. In practice, the loudness of the sound also appears to vary and it is this combination of frequency (vibrato) and ampli-tude (tremolo) modulation that give Leslie Speakers their characteristic sound.

Do I win that trip to Hawaii ?
____________________________
Larry Hawk

no... ,the leslie dsp is a far more accurate simulation than any of this, using psycho-acoustic simulations to achieve an effect including the characteristic wind up and slow down of a real leslie wheel. There is more of similar explained in the Tabs chapters of the book.

However you also have 12 indpendent LFOs which can be totally programmed for pitch and amplitude with different degrees on the controller wheel at the same time. These as well as completely independent filter and pan modulations of the same available varying depths and waveforms, sync, phase, delay, touch etc may also be equally simultaneously assigned to aftertouch if you so desire.

Question: How does Grandpa manage these sounds - with no expression at all?
Answer : When in Rome do as the Romans do.

Can’t believe it! Mike I quoted you and gave my opinion of your statement as follows: Quote: “Touch sensitivity is NOT A REPLACEMENT for a properly used expression pedal”. So very true. True, true and true. Question: When is an expression pedal (swell pedal) proper? Answer: When used on an organ or a keyboard set up so as to be played as an organ. This is how grandpa manages these sounds; When I use those organ voices that do not have touch sensitivity I play the board as an organ, with expression pedal. I never said I played them in any other way. I very emphatically agreed with you. How does Grandpa manage these sounds - with no expression at all? Thanks Mike. What a pity if this is so as these instruments rely on expression pedal operation. I’ll take all the pity I can get. With the advent of the seven thousand we now have one dedicated organ button on the rhythm side and two instead of one dedicated to non touch sensitive organ voices on the sound group side. A small, by comparison, but welcome addition. A very welcome addition indeed for organ enthusiast. This is one reason that you see a room with a big dust covered organ with a shinny new keyboard at it’s side. Mutt and Jeff! I have a number friends in this area with this situation. The keyboard get much more attention than the organ.

I did however point out orchestral instruments are handled in a different manner on our keyboards. The method used to make them sound realistic is different than for organ sounds that have no touch sensitivity on them. I thought I was saying control of orchestral sounds is better controlled and more realistic with touch sensitivity and after touch rather than the expression pedal approach. This is my opinion and I will stick with it. On the other hand I know of those who set the touch control to zero and use their old trusty expression for all instruments. Each to his own. I suppose mentioning there is another button with many organ sounds that are touch sensitive and can utilize after touch will disappoint some. These are the organ voices I use when playing orchestral style music and not in the true organ environment of the board. Variety is the spice of life they say. ‘How does Grandpa manage these sounds - with no expression at all? Very well thank you. Familiarize yourself with and understand what you have spent all your money on and you too can experience more spice in your life. Larry, a security blanket will do nothing more than cover up real security. As for your friend, let him have his freedom to do what he does best. Don’t force him to work with band instruments when his love is for the organ.

Could be wrong, Larry, but I don’t recall discussing rhythm volume. However I think that would be a very interesting subject. I see you do this with your expression pedal. I understand the concept and certainly will explore your approach. To date I have a number of ways to accomplish this end but always looking for other approaches. Fonzy Bear? Pounding up and down? Annoying after a while? You bet, and boring to boot. When you play how do you set your expression pedal. To full expression or part expression and why? Which works best for you? My guess would be full expression. Would like to add this to my style of playing. Never can have too many ways to skin a cat. By the way, Ruthie qualifies the air. Not just air but hot air. She also uses a qualifier for air of the other end. Would any of you other guys like to chime in on the subject of how you vary or lend expression to the rhythm part of your playing, not air?

OK Larry and Alec, I can’t even spell a lot of the words you guys are using much less know what they mean. Good thing I gave the judging part to Ruthie. I told her to look this over. After a bit she said she was going into the kitchen to start making supper. Up till now these are the only words she has spoken. So far nobody sent me the music. Hay fellows, I’m just an armature and am just going around in circles until I have a chart in front of me. However I do know Jingle Bells by heart and will substitute that. OK? I will have to E-Mail it but if somebody would like to post Jingle Bells everybody could see what a fool I have made of myself.

Grandpa Doug

Hi everyone !. I use an expression pedal on my KN6500 all the time. ( Some may say over use !) However I would caution against using one when laying down sequencer tracks. Adding "expression" in this way to a piece is something you should do to suit your mood at the time and I found it intensely irritating to have a backing track, even one that I had programmed going up and down without my control. Record your backing tracks without the pedal, then when playing, assign the parts that you want to control with the pedal to the "Part Expression" setting, not forgetting to switch the pedal itself to "Part Expression". Voila ! you can now control the backing parts volume with your foot whilst still using the touch sensitivity for the live lead parts.