Hey all! Newbie here, forst post!!

I am a guitarist learning keys. I plan on spending a while learning then will start looking for a band to play with. I currently play guitar in a working band, but want to leave the band for non-creative differences. Long story short- I do all the work with no help. So I have been looking for another working band. I have found a couple good ones, but they are not on the same page as me, ie. they want to "make it". I have a different idea of making it then most.

Anyway, here are some questions.

How many people here play both keys and guitars in a live situation regularly? Is it worth the hassle (your persoanl opinion of course!) lugging two sets of gear? As it is now I lug two guitar amps, three guitars, etc. I wonder if I can find a band that will let me play each instrument 50% of the time?

Maybe I'll start another band from scratch.....

Also, there seem to be a shortage of quality keyboardists (at least here in New England) and I do not anticipate having trouble finding a good band. In fact, many bands we gig with have no keyboardists and can't find one. I know for a fact that if I had the gear I could join one already! Is this common everywhere?

Another question, is an amp necessary as a stag monitor? This seems to be the case what I have seen. I am looking for a good gigging set up, but gotta start inexpesively. I'll have to sell a couple of guitars though.....

I look forward to participating and reading here SynthZone!

Thanks in advance!
-=F=-

Franklin...
First of all..."Welcome aboard!!"

Personally, I play in 2 bands, covering guitars, keys, harmonica, & vocals.
Yes, it can be a little busy at times, but that's the way (uh-huh, uh-huh) I like it.
.."Sorry...couldn't resist the urge to throw that in there"
I bring 2 kbs, 2 guitars, 2 amps, and an anvil case full of all my snakes, cables, mic, etc.
I think Nigel will attest to the fact that it can sometimes get a little hairy, but the end result "the sound" is well worth it, and the $$ split is better than having that extra person on board.

It's really up to you, if you want to do it, no one here can say it's a good or bad thing, it depends on what you're looking to put across for your audience.
...Just my thots..an Good Luck

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...shboom

Thanks! The more I read here the more I understand many of y'all are multi instrumentalists. I look forward to learning from you!

Welcome in SynthZone, Franklin!
Learning more than one instrument is surely a good choice. The reason why I came to keys is familiar to yours but I still play guitar at gigs only. I think this will change in a few month because our songs will become more synth parts...too much for one keyboardist...

We never had have the problem what we had to handle because we are a band and we're handling our gigging material together. All for one!!!

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Greetings from Frankfurt (Germany),
Sheriff ;-)

Franklin ... Welcome ... where in New England are you? ...
t.

Hello, here in lovely Connecticut!

Greetings,
I hope you're not here to post about your little unfortunate experience of trying to play a keyboard using your guitar pick.

I've witnessed a lot of weird shit in this forum. It is the very reason I keep posting here regularly.

Welcome. I personally started by playing keys and then toyed with the idea of playing a guitar. I ended up buying fifteen of them. Play them all. Wil continue doing so until my neighbors stop crying. I take pleasure in waking them up.

Again. Welcome to this place. It is always good to see a guitarist post here.

-ED-
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A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally.
- - - Oscar Wilde

[This message has been edited by 3351 (edited 09-30-2005).]

Yep, nothing keeps you on your toes more than switching between keyboard and guitar during a song. I drop my pick onto the panel of my Motif 6 so I can play keyboard parts and be able to grab my pick again in a timely fashion. If I am just playing rhythm guitar in songs that I also play keys I just play the guitar with my nails to avoid having to play "grab the pick" game.

Thanks again all! I do a fair bit of finger picking already so switching will be fun!!

We'll see how it is live! Something else to sweat over!

When switching from guitar to keys I generally hold my guitar pick with my teeth. Looks kind of cool. especially if the pick is green or blue.

Thankfully I don't get to do it that often. I only need to use picks while playing 60's garage and instrumental surf rock.
Remember "Pipeline"? Trrrrrrrbooom.

-ED-

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A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally.
- - - Oscar Wilde

LOL!
That's where I keep my pick often, especially playing slide!

I'm a big fan of slide. Got many of them. Glass, steel and a really odd one for my lap steel. IN fact I love slide so much my old 12 String never got tuned to anything either than an open G and open D chords.
Nowadays I mainly use my lap steel for slide. Tune it to a 9th major so it sounds kind of Jazzy.
When I first started to experiment with slides and open tunings I only had a customized 1952 re-issue TL. I played it the Keith Richards way. Five strings open E. Hey, it rocked!
Cleared up a lot of mystery around some of the compositions by The ROlling Stones. I think half of my favorite ones were written by keith while messing on his 52 with open G tuning. He even had a joke about that. "What's got five strings and an asshole?". LOL

-ED-

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A gentleman is one who never hurts anyone's feelings unintentionally.
- - - Oscar Wilde

Franklin,
Welcome to the board. I play guitar and keys as well. When I played in bands I would lug around 2 keyboards, plus stand, accessories, ect. I would also lug aroung 2 guitars (one acoustic, and one electric and sometimes 3 guitars if I brought my Fender Bass) plus amps and all the goodies. Personally I got sick of lugging all that around.

Squeak

Hello Franklin,
Another welcome on the board.

I play keyboard and guitar in a band as well.
(mainly 70ties rock)
Downsides are ofcourse the double gear, but as long as all band members help lugging, it shouldn't be a problem.
The other thing is that you need more time for setting up and with the soundcheque you need to play both instruments.
I mostly make it before the drummer is ready though

Make sure you have straplocks on you guitar!
and have room enough BEHIND and aside your keyboard. (this way you can come upforward when playing guitar)
For fast switching I mostly put the guitar on my back around my neck so I need the room to avoid damaged guitars.

Have extra picks lying on your keyboard.

Read setlists upfront as you might end up with continuously switching.

You have to think ahead!
Which means that your keyboard is setup for the next song after playing guitar or your pedal board(if you use one) is ready for the next song after playing keyboard..

Tip:
I use a boss tuner which if switched "on" puts the guitar on standby!
This is very handy when switching to keyboard, to avoid a singin'guitar while playing your keyboard.

Fred

This works for me....

I usually load it with 8 or 10 for the night.
If I can lay a pick down in a hurry, I'll set it down on either end of my SP, otherwise, it gets chucked and maybe found later when I pack up...and then...only if I worry about it.

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...shboom

Wow, a multi pick holder!!! What a cool idea!!!

Unfortunately it's not really suitable for me because I only play with one special pick - my old and outworn pick which I have formed with my will power and humbleness over the years...

Yeah, really!! My personal nightmare: I'm loosing my pick at the beginning of the concert... I would search for it until I would have find it!!!

Also, I don't like to "eat" my pick...*LOL*

"One Pick!!"
...My Gosh...I'm lucky if I don't use less than 4 or 5 a night.
of course, for me, covering both keys & guitar, I guess it makes sense, if I gotta bounce from one to the other over 4 or 5 songs, sometimes I just don't have the time to worry about them, and I wouldn't want the possibility of a pick slipping down between the keys and causing me grief.

"sniff' "sniff"....Ah...I love the smell of burnt plastic in the morning!!"

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...shboom

I too burn thru them, at least one or two a night.

I saw a keyboardist/guitarist Sat. night. He played everything thru the PA and used in ear monitors. For his Strats he used a POD into the PA, the keys direct. The Strat had a horrible thin sound, I'm not sure I could deal with that!

Do you all find that going direct w/ the keys is good enough for you (besides those running into a rotary cab!)?

For the smaller venues, I just run both amps straight, no micing or D.I.
For both keys, I use a Rickenbacker TR35B, and for guitar, I use a Fender 112 Deluxe.
For the large venues, I mic both amps separately, and the amps basically become my on-stage monitors, plus I'll have a wedge down in front for vocal monitor mix.
I used to use in-ears, until I started getting headaches because of them. Nixxed that idea real fast.

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...shboom

Thanks again guys, I hate in ears. Well, I may try them again someday.

I have heard the Line 6 POD sound good but it seems to depend a lot on the sound system it is running through. I don't think the average PA using horns and 15 inch speakers really provides the midrange that is needed for good guitar sounds. I recently played with a guitarist that was running a POD into a solid state Yamaha amp with 12 inch speakers and I was surprised how good it sounded.

I carry two amps with me when I play live. I use a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe for guitar and a powered Wharfdale cabinet for my onstage keyboard sound & monitor. It is alway nice if your sound can be reinforced with the PA but I wouldn't want to rely on that as my main sound source.

About POD: I'm having one (version 2.0) and I'm playing it normally direct via the second channel of my studio mixer while using a first channel as an enhancing system for better pre-equalization and as a sustainer. From my second channel I'm sending to my multi-effect and returning to the mixer.
It works good for me in the studio...

...but in life situations there are slightly different conditions. I realized it at my last three concerts where I tried to use my POD:

1st gig: POD -> Marshall (clean sound!, 4x12") -> two mics -> PA
My Gibson sounded a little bit flat. My slightly distorted clean sound came absolutely clean without any distortion.

2nd gig: POD -> keyboard practise amp ( , clean sound!, 2x12") -> one mic -> PA
My sweet humbucker lady sounded a little bit more agressive but still not that way like I knew it from my studio working. Also, the sound came a little bit muddy (okay, it was raining in waterfalls so the sound could have been washed away... ).

3rd gig: POD -> DI -> PA
This was the first time that my Gibson sounded nearly like it does in my studio. I guess it would have been absolutely done so if I had used my multi-effect too...

Nevertheless, I guess that the POD can also be used via an amp but for that choice you'll probably have to search for another sound setting. Well, there's a switch where you can take choice for "direct" or "amp A.I.R. mode". Maybe this should be the ability to cut the amp simulation. I guess you don't need that if you're playing via a real guitar amp. It makes quite a sense: If there's a real amp then you don't need to simulate it!

[This message has been edited by Sheriff (edited 10-04-2005).]

[This message has been edited by Sheriff (edited 10-04-2005).]

Sheriff you mention you used the POD at 3 concerts. You must have used some sort of amplification even it wasn't a guitar amp. What was amplifiying your POD output? I suspect that may not have provided the full frequency range needed for your guitar sound if you felt it was lacking.

Why don't you just get a tube amp instead of trying to get that sound with modeling ? A Fender tube amp really isn't going to cost much more than a POD with a pedal board. While I do like using the POD ( I have a POD 2.0 with a pedal board at home ) I always use a Fender tube amp when I play live and just take the POD as an emergency backup. You just can't beat the real thing. Fender make great tube amps nowadays at an affordable price point. I think their amps are better value now than they were 30-40 years ago when a Twin Reverb still cost around $1000. For around $500 you can buy a new Fender amp that sounds just great and provides dual channel control.

Another great modeling option to checkout are the Vox modeling solutions. They also sound very authentic .... but I'd still choose the real thing over modeling any day. Don't get me wrong I think the Line 6 POD is great if you have a good solid state amp to run it through with 10-12 inch speakers. ( PS I did once try it with my guitar tube amp and it didn't sound nearly as good as when I run it through my 200 Watt solid state box that I use for keyboard ).


[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 10-05-2005).]

Well, Nigel, in earlier days I used my Marshall JCM 800 lead 50 watts top with one Marshall box 1965A (that fits for 100 watts top ). I played my No Name Strat with high presence and a good equalization balance. I used...
...for distortion my Ibanez Tube Screamer,
...for sustain my D.O.D. compressor (a very aggressive little thing ),
...for special effect #1 my Ibanez Stereo Chorus,
...for special effect #2 my Ibanez Stereo Phazer.

Over the years the little foot pedals were lost. It didn't make me really angry because the little cables produced so many noise when kicking the effect on or off...*knick*knack*shredder*kkkrrrrrkkk*...do you remember those days?
Nevertheless, they were good little effects. And each effect with its own processing electronic had been their biggest advantage. In the opposite multi-effect-processors were much more expensive but they came with effect algorithms...

Well, to make it short, in later years I came to the conclusion that it's much better to work in a studio than in a loud rehearsal. The more that it seemed to be unable to get a final band line-up and music direction. So, I needed a guitar effect with a wide range of sound ability - the POD was my choice!

I didn't plan to play at the last three concerts but I jumped in because the lead guitarist spent some holidays with his family. I wasn't really applicable and I tried my very best with the POD. Another point was that we couldn't play with our own equipment but only at the last gig. The presenters came with their own big (really BIG) PA and had their own profi mixing engineer. He really did a good job but the weak sound came from me... ...sorry, audiencers!!!

EDIT: I've used one of two sound settings that I've programmed in my studio where I'm actually working on an album. They are good settings for my studio but I didn't test them over an amp. In the band's rehearsal I've played the POD direct over the PA system which was also used by the DJ and the keyboardist. The POD sounds good via a mixer and a hifi system or a wide ranged high quality PA system. Maybe I should try the POD through the Bose PAS???
I'll start a new band project at the beginning of 2006. Then I'll test different options and settings of the POD - especially for life situations. But for now I'm feeling comfortable with the POD via mixer/PA.
I don't know if 12" speakers will help to enhance the POD's sound but one thing is sure...
...12" speakers made history - 12" rules (at least for guitarists)!!!

Regards, Danny

[This message has been edited by Sheriff (edited 10-05-2005).]

[This message has been edited by Sheriff (edited 10-05-2005).]

Thanks again guys! No I just gotta figure out how to pay for new gear.

I'm gonna have to sell a guitar or two I guess.......

At least I understand your question...well, I think I understand it...
My POD was amplified first by a Marshall 100 watt top, second by a keyboard practise amp and last direct by PA (via DI).

On every amp I tried to use the clean sound setting with a wide equalization range (bass=1:00AM, middle=2:00AM, trebble=3:00AM). I've got the clean sound setting but no wide equalization range. I simply didn't know these amps. Even the Marshall top was a new modell which I didn't know before. So, I couldn't get the POD to the point where I wanted to have it...
Regards, Danny

I use both a keyboard and a guitar for most of my jobs. To save weight and pieces for the "one-nighter-singles", I use a nylon string directly into a PA.The on-board pre-amp and effects in the PA seem to do the trick for me. If I use a steel string or an electric (Parker Fly is the instrument of choice), I use a San amp pre-amp. It' not ideal. If I have the room and the strength, I use a mid-80's Fender super Champ lined out to the PA. For my jazz trio, I use a Polytone and an L-5 or the Parker Fly. For variety/dance music, I use a Super Reverb with a 335 or, again, the "Fly".

As I get older, the equipment gets lighter. Soon, I be playing a kazoo!


Russ

Speaking of lap steels, in a moment of "silliness", before I stopped drinking, I once took a Hammond C-3, had a new case built and added a Fender double-neck steel on the top-built-in. Really screwed up the value of both instruments, but it was something to play bass pedals and switch to lap steel, mid-tune.I had a house job, so there was no moving involved. Sold the C-3 years ago. The only good thing I did was save both the steel body and C-3 case. Traded the Fender, and have been looking for a replacement for years.


Man the dumb things you do when you're young...

Russ

Well Russ nothing strange about it.
We did cut all hammonds in two pieces to make them transportable those days..

You might say that these were the first portable hammonds.. (still a lot of weight but a lot easier to deal with though.)

Man, I remember. Mine were generally house jobs, so I have no excuse for the "butcher" job I did on the "C" but stupidity.

Those were the days...at least what I can remember of them.

regards,


russ

Franklin! Welcome to the asylum. The land of where those subconcious thoughts that would normally never reach the surface are surfaced by one or more members somehow tearing a hole through that barrier by saying some keyword or phrase to trigger a new opening into unseen lands of realizations and enlightening you in the way you never thought you could be. Synthzone can do this, or at times can be a place to steer newcomers in the right direction (omg, ...sounds like an AA meeting LOL), and sometimes the board can turn into a red hot think tank. Lately I have been somewhat dormant on the board because I have been bathing in this vast heavy water pool of XG MIDI. Exploring while intentionally not missing a single facet of the XG system through it's mother controlling program: XG Works. While studying this, I believe I hate the telephone and love my "Do Not Enter or Disturb" lighted sign, the double steel airlock doors, the door camera, my wife and daughter of course. They ward off the undesired which is just about everything that I usually do desire when not in deep study. My wife and daughter know me so well that they are the only ones permitted into my domain of study. Down here at "central control" as I've coined it, it's like a home within a home that controls everything above me as well as it being my sound and music study. One time about two years ago I was in here for a day short of three weeks picking apart all the Alesis A6 (Andromeda) was capable of. I look at the study as an investment because some people sometimes use me as a consultant. Things just happened to fall that way. Since it's bad enough that I can err since I'm only human; the last thing I'm going to do is have the words that come out of my mouth poorly lead someone who has paid me for proper guidance, all due to my lacking of knowledge.

I have not done very much live work lately, but have occasionally in the past using guitars and keyboards. What I have found to work out best in the past is to be an open book to all. Think of all it has cost you to be the quality of musician you are at this point. It's quite a bit and it shows. When others with great potential ask me questions I tell them that I am willing to tell them everything I know, if they are willing to listen, and I will help them if they will help me. It develops into sorts of a crew or following. "Grasshoppers" per se. Just be right with them and tell them "Hey, there is no way that I can haul all this stuff around by myself and you would be so greatly appreciated if you could just lend me a hand." I just tell them to please care for my equipment like it is a newborn baby because it can be that delicate sometimes. You become a mentor and they your students. You get the help, and they get their thirst for your knowledge satisfied (plus a few bucks over their costs for gasoline and stuff). It's a fair trade that way, and your system will be setup exactly to your specification, you make good friendship, many long term too. I learned it all when I was a grasshopper for my uncle back in the jazz circuit in the Manhattan (village area) some three decades ago. Before you know it, you'll have a road crew of five that are at your house thirty seconds after you hang up the phone, care for your gear just as you do, and set you up perfect to the last detail. It's a fair deal and it's worth the small price of time talking to and educating them. There is no disrespect or pompousness on your part because you realize they are not just a road crew, they in essence are you.

Hey, it's a weird post, but that's me.
Weird.

EDIT: Oh yeah and Franklin, I forgot to say, Start a group from scratch. That's a for sure thing sir. There is no sense in just being an additive part of a sculpture you are not the foundation of if you are at a point being capable of developing your own sculpture that you can be the foundation of. Groups are best formed by the anchor musician in them.

[This message has been edited by MORPH! (edited 10-13-2005).]

Thanks MORPH! I think I will start a band actually. I'm gonna spend some time learning standards, practicing and when I can afford some nicer gear I'll start writing and see what happens!