The Csus2 chord implies that the 2nd (the D note) is suspended from a previous harmony. Thus the example is just to show how it can happen and that it can sound ok. Ultimately all of this stuff has its origins in part writing and over years rules have been written and broken and re-written. Bach said "no consecutive fifths or octaves between any parts". I doubt that the average Big Band would get through 8 measures with that rule...

It is correct that a suspension is dissonant (ie: discordant, or unstable) and requires resolving. Of course the most discordant in the examples is the Bb in the dominant 7th (C7) resolving to the the third of the tonic (A note in the F chord). It's a similar effect to a suspension (just a stronger pull). The suspension could be held over a longer period, to create more tension, maybe even never resolving before the progression moves on.

I think your problem is assuming that the examples are for auto play chord. Of course (without writing it out in full) the root bass note is always assumed to be sounding. You are right of course that the whole basis of the harmony alters depending on the root. An example being that of the Tritone (the augmented 4th or diminished 5th) for example Bb and E. This makes the most dissonant or discordant of harmonic intervals which might be assumed to resolve to A and F (C7 to F), (assuming a bass note moving from C to F) In this case the Bb is the 7th of the dominant 7th harmony and the E the leading note. Change the first bass note to F# and this is very clearly F#7 which in a perfect cadence resolves to B (In this case it would be A# and E, the E now being the 7th of the dominant and the A# being the leading note (The 7th would fall to D#, the mediant of the tonic, and the A# would rise to the root of B).

But as to whether this chord (Csus2) is truly Em7... it cannot be because the root of the chord is... C. If it said Csus2/E then it could possibly be Em7 by another name. Especially that if you need to omit a note from a harmony the fifth is the safest to omit without altering the effect. But it says clearly Csus2, so this is a C chord. All this proves is that although chord symbols are very useful for speed reading and of course APC, they are a musical short hand.

Hi Alec and John,

What a beautiful day we have had, eh? I didn't wear cords on the golf course, John. Sorry. Decided to leave them at home. All I thought about as I meandered peacefully and happily around the hills was how beautiful the scenery is and how lucky I am to be there enjoying it.

Alec, thanks for your additional input on our chord discussion. Very well written. I appreciated your explanation and I learn in the process and that is what I value a great deal. I have one question. You say the notes we have been discussing are in fact a Csus2 chord because the root of the chord has to be C. So what you are really saying is the note C is IMPLIED but not played when the notes G,D, and E are played and the IMPLICATION of the note C makes G,D, and E a Csus2. Is that correct?

Don't know what all this has to do with the price of eggs in China as the saying goes, but it has been a good discussion. You two take care.

Chuck

You hit the nail on the head, Chuck. The price of eggs in China raises, for the chicken-branche,here in The Netherlands, suffers a lot because there is a deadly virus among poultry. It is hot news here. Millions of chicken had to be eliminated. So we have to import eggs ...from China!!??. And we, poor keyboardplayers, have to pay more for our ham and eggs. So there is now, you started it, a connections between music and eggs.
Just kidding
Cees.
(P.S. Thanks for the learning contribution to you all)

Hi Cees,

Are you telling me an uitsmijter will cost more when I come to Holland? I ate lots of uitsmijter meals when I was living in your beautiful country in the 60s. Also loved loempia. I had a favorite restaurant in Zeist that served loempia and it was delicious. I hope your chicken population gets well soon because apparently the price of eggs in China is going up!

Goeden Avond Mijn Vriend,

Chuck

Hi Chuck, it is a small world, isn't it. Suppose in the surrounding of Soesterberg, looking at your profile?? Don't worry about the prices of China-eggs, mail me when you come to Holland, I treat you on a large uitsmijter, while you explain me how about the chords
Tot ziens Cees

Hi Cees,

Yes, I was at Soesterberg from July 1962 to July 1966. My wife, children, and I travelled all over your lovely country and met so many wonderful people. Our Dutch neighbors in Soesdijk were terrific. I am still in touch with their eldest daughter who married an American from Soesterberg. We chat by e-mail regularly. She and her family are in Louisiana. A cousin of mine is buried in the American cemetery at Margraten. I thought the world of him. He was killed on the last day of World War II. Tragic!

Thank you for your offer of an uitsmijter. It would be a great pleasure to meet and talk with you. Who knows, maybe one day I will be able to make the trip, and if I do I will contact you beforehand.

Tot ziens van mij ook,

Chuck

We go round the houses in these types of discussions and hopefully learn something along the way. Not to lose focus on the original point and to try and address Chuck's point, the "implied root" depends on the application, outside of apc you might play it under the chords e.g. Bb, D, F on Bb > G, D, E on C resolving to G, C, E on C > A, C, F on F. The key point is the D suspended from the Bb to the C, and really nothing to do with Gsus4.

Way up the thread the original question was what is the difference between C2 (Csus2) and Cadd9. The answer to that question is the only difference is the distance of the 2nd from the root, the notes are the same (e.g CDEG or CEG oct+D). But you can see the note progression could fit by inversion.

However auto play chord works only by note matching, it does not vary the harmony according to inversion generally, as would be the case listening to the piano; apc does not recognise the relative positions of the notes. Thus for apc chord recognition Cadd2 and Cadd9 would be the same.

Each manufacturer has his own system for apc and the Technics system (especially Pianist Mode) is more based on what people play, than on a theory book. For example open voicings of 6/9 chords, and especially 13th chords. In this case, people play a C13 as Bb, E and A (the root is truly implied). Some theory books would give you C, E, G, Bb, D, F and A. Some other products will only recognise the 13th if you play a 7th underneath it. In the case of the Technics system it is reality which is the guide.

Even so, the 13th is ambiguous. Because of the keys keyboard players generally use, the notes E, Bb and D# are pretty much seen as C7#9 (or C7+9). But this is the same grouping (intervals) as the C13, but in the key of F#. So try setting up Pianist Mode, play E, Bb and D# with your right hand. The screen will say F#13 (which is of course correct).

Now with your left hand play a C note (eg: an octave lower than the C under the E in your right hand) Watch the display change to C7#9. Do the same with C13 (Bb, E, A) and then play an F# bass note. The screen will show F#7#9. Then for the hell of it change the bass note to G...Gm6/9.
Chords are indeed ambiguous, and sometimes it is easier to write a complex chord another way. The Technics system may be more capable than most of keeping up with what you do, but certainly in the case of Sus2 the absence of a root from your APC "friendly" chord will cause problems, because the keyboard can't in this case guess which chord you mean (especially because some teaching systems omit the fifth from the harmony to make it 'easier' to play).

So... you can get the Sus 2 'sound' by playing C,D,E,G. The screen will say Add 9. As an example, select 8 Beat Rock, V4 and Mute everything except Bass and Accomp 1. Set the tempo to about 80 and play each for one bar: Bb, Cadd9 (C,D,E,G: our Csus2 alternative), C, F. You'll hear the D note suspended from the Bb chord, and then resolving to C before ending on the tonic of F.

I suppose you could say there can be a big difference between piano type lead sheet chord description and actual apc implementation, and also a big difference in how different manufacturers will interpret the notes you play in apc.

best regards,

Good Morning Alec,

Thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed explanation. I, for one, appreciate it very much. Being relatively new to keyboards means I am learning more and more about apc, pianist mode etc., in terms of the board's designed capability to recognize chords. I remember Scott Yee's dilemma when he was debating which keyboard to buy. His two major concerns were chord recognition in apc and pianist modes and the voice harmonizer. It just points up what you have said above - keyboard manufacturers use different methods for chord recognition. For me, I am just happy with the sounds produced by my KN when I play any given chord as I play my music and that is my bottom line.

Thanks again, Alec and take care.

Chuck

one of the most interesting threads for a long, long while.

Another bright sunny day! Time to get the old irons out again maybe?

happy putting, Chuck

Wow. what a really cool conversation. Loaded with interesting facts about chords. Thank you both technicsplayer and Chuck. So technicsplayer, then the only diff between a C2 and Cadd9th, is in the Cadd9th, the 2nd note (or 9th) is played on top. Or rather, the highest note in the chord. Other than that they are the same.

I always seen them as the same. Generally when I play music, I'm playing from what I call a "lead sheet". Maybe it's a standard. Bascially on this will be the melody and the chords written out over the melody line. Once in a while there may be a few added phrases between during vocal rests. So when I play (in a band) using these "lead sheets", I have lots of freedom to improvise. I play any inversion I "feel" like playing of the listed chord. But often I use the melody line for my highest note (but not always). Anyway, I've just gotten into a habit of playing with the left hand C, G, C for the bass and C, D, G with the right hand for my C2. Leaving out the 3rd on my right hand. And now that you mention it, I think I've only seen the Cadd9 when the D note is the melodic note of that chord.

Thanks again you guys. This has been a very imformative thread. I must confess though I don't use one of those arrangers with auto chord play. I'm not even sure what the "Technics Discussion" board is for. I simply found this thread by checking "new postings as of today" a while back and seen the posting subject and was curious so I read it.

Wild.

Thanks again.
Bob
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