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#57855 - 04/02/03 08:31 PM
Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
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Registered: 01/29/03
Posts: 317
Loc: Melbourne AUSTRALIA
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#57856 - 04/03/03 12:41 AM
Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
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Member
Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 403
Loc: United Kingdom
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Good Morning from the UK!
I will try to shed some light on chords for you.
All scales, whether major, minor or other, contain seven notes. In the case of the C major scale, the notes are C-D-E-F-G-A-B. Those notes are also referred to as 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7. The basic C major chord is composed of three of those notes, namely the root or first note (C), the third note (E), and the fifth note (G). If you wish to play C6 you add the sixth note (A) to the three notes forming the basic chord. If you wish to play a C major 7 chord you add the seventh note (B) to the basic chord.
You asked why C7 and C9 are the same. C7 is a "dominant" chord. Dominant chords are formed by playing 1, 3, 5, and 7 with the 7th note played a semi-tone (half tone) lower. In the case of C7, the notes played would be C, E, G, and B flat, or 1, 3, 5, b7. Now, we said the C major scale is composed of the notes C, D, E, F, G, A, and B, or 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7. If we continue up the keyboard from the note B, the next note will be C again, or 8. Continuing on we come to D (9), E (10), F (11), G (12), and A (13).
We said C7 is a dominant chord. Adding a 9th, 11th, or 13th note to any chord is often referred to as "altering" the chord. Altered chords are most often found in the form of a dominant chord to which a 9th, 11th, or 13th note has been added. However, major and minor chords are also altered from time to time to achieve the harmony intended by the composer.
To sum up, a C7 chord is composed of the notes C, E, G, b7, and a C9 chord is composed of C, E, G, b7, and D (the 9th note). As you can see, the foundation of the C9 chord is a C7 chord that has been "altered" by adding the ninth note D. Play it on your keyboard and listen to the sound. Kind of jazzy eh?
If you want to play a C11, then play a C7 chord and add the 11th note (F). Likewise, to play a C13, play a C7 and add the 13th note (A).
Chords are also altered by playing the 9th, 11th, and 13th a semi-tone (half tone) lower or higher. For example, a C7 chord with an augmented 11th (the 11th note raised a semi-tone) would require that you play the basic C7 chord and add F#.
Finally, since all scales are mathematically derived, you can apply the formula 1, 3, 5, b7, 9, 11, and 13 to any scale by beginning with the root note and counting upwards. Try it and see. You will find that what I've explained applies to the B7 and B9 chords you mentioned and all dominant chords of the twelve major scales.
That is an explanantion of chord construction. In practice, you would not play all of the notes of the chord because we don't have enough fingers and the stretch from root note to 13th note (for example)is impossible (for me at least). Altered chords are usually voiced (played) using the root note (1), the third note (3), and the flatted seventh (b7) in the left hand and the ninth or other added notes are played with the right hand.
I hope I have answered your question in a way that is easy to understand. We could get into scale construction, i.e., tone, tone, semi-tone etc. and intervals and the list of harmony considerations goes on and on. Countless books have been written on the subject. Your question concerned dominant and altered chords and I trust you know now why a C7 and C9 chord are alike.
Take care.
Chuck
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#57863 - 04/03/03 11:55 PM
Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
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Member
Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 403
Loc: United Kingdom
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Arthur,
Thank you for your kind remarks. Like you, I am a beginner, but unlike you, I'm not old. I'm 73 years young! Ha Ha Glad you appreciated the talk about chord construction. Again, thanks for showing your appreciation.
Lrngkybrd,
Cadd9 and C9 are DIFFERENT chords. Cadd9 is exactly what it implies i.e., a basic C chord (C, E, G,) with the note D added. It is not a dominant chord. You DO NOT include the b7 (B flat) in a Cadd9 chord. Play both Cadd9 and C9 and you will hear the harmonic difference.
Chuck
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#57866 - 04/04/03 08:50 AM
Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
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Member
Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 403
Loc: United Kingdom
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Hi Bob,
I have never heard of a C2 chord. The notes C,D, and G you are playing and which you call a C2 chord is very likely the first inversion of a Gsus4 chord. The notes for Gsus4 are G, C, and D with the G note being the root. Go to your keyboard and play G, C, and D first, then play C, D, and place the G note on top (the way you play it) and you will hear the sound of a Gsus4 in its first inversion.
What is the difference between a C2 chord and a Cadd9 chord? There is one significant difference. The Cadd9 chord is a major chord and your so-called C2 chord is a suspended chord. Let's see why.
You say you usually do not play the note E when you play your C2 chord. In a C chord, the note E is the third note as we discussed above. The third note of any scale determines whether the scale is major or minor. If you play a C scale and use the note E, you are playing a major scale. If you lower the E note a semi-tone (half tone) and play Eb as you play the scale, you are playing the C minor scale. So the tonality of a scale is affected by the treatment of the third note i.e., playing E natural or Eb.
Now, to play a suspended chord, you play the root note, the fourth note, and the fifth note of a scale. If you play Csus4 for example, the notes would be C, F, and G. Notice the third note (E) is not played. If you added the third note you would have a discordant sound because you are trying to mix a major chord and a suspended chord. In the case of your C2 chord, you are in fact leaving out the note B of a G major chord and substituting the note D which makes it a Gsus4 chord - not a C2 chord.
Suspended chords have the same effect as dominant chords in that they create tension in music and our ears require that tension to be resolved, hence, as an example, G7 is resolved to C major. A suspended chord will also require resolution to another chord, though not necessarily a major chord.
So Bob, to summarize, your C2 chord should, I suspect, be renamed Gsus4 regardless of the inversion you use. And the primary difference between your C2 chord and Cadd9 is that your C2 chord is a suspended chord and Cadd9 is a major chord.
I hope I have offered clear answers to your questions. If not, let me know.
Most Sincerely, Chuck
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#57871 - 04/04/03 11:50 AM
Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
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Member
Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 403
Loc: United Kingdom
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Hi Ogre,
Thank you for showing your appreciation. I'm glad you have enjoyed this discussion of chords. Perhaps I need to clarify why I say I am a beginner. I started taking keyboard lessons about a year and a half ago, so as far as a keyboard player is concerned, I still feel like a beginner. As a musician, however, I began music studies on the trombone at age 7 - 66 years ago. So I am no stranger to music - just to a keyboard.
You mentioned you have the Dick Hyman books. What a coincidence. I have them as well. Dick is a wonderful jazz pianist and so-called jazz harmonies are the harmonies I enjoy the most. I use many of Dick's chord substitutions when they suit my taste for harmony.
Hello Again Bob,
Thank you for showing your appreciation, too. I am wondering where the C2 chord designation came from. I've never come across it in any of the music I have in my library including busker books. Strange. C2 is not mentioned in any of my harmony books either, nor have I run across it in my 66 years of reading and playing music.
You spoke about unusual endings e.g., using the Gsus4 (aka C2) chord as the final chord in a piece of music and when you questioned it, your director said that is the way he wanted it to end. You know, there are rules for harmony, but no rules to govern how you end a song. I think it is nice occasionally to leave the audience hanging with an unusual ending. In that regard, I haven't used that approach in my music - yet - but it is an intriguing thought and you can bet I'll experiment with it. Thanks for making me aware. As Ogre said, it adds interest to the music.
A thought just occurred to me. I wonder if the C2 designation is intended for guitar or ukelele players to tell them to play a C chord in the #2 position on the fretboard. I can't imagine anyone interpreting a C2 to mean a suspended 4th chord. Amazing.
You two take care,
Chuck
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#57874 - 04/04/03 02:37 PM
Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
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Member
Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 403
Loc: United Kingdom
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Hi Bill,
You are quite right. The notes C, D, E, and G do form a Cadd9 chord. However, Bob was saying he did not play the E note when he played his C2 chord, therefore it cannot be a Cadd9 because the third (E) is missing. Cadd9 is a major chord and the third is required to make it so. Remove the third (E) from the set of notes and the chord then becomes a sus4 chord of some description and in this case it is a Gsus4 if I'm not mistaken. Let me hasten to add that I am not an expert when it comes to harmony and chord formation and I don't pretend to be. Perhaps someone else can shed a different light on this discussion and if so, I will learn in the process.
Thanks for your input, Bill. As the Tesco slogan says, "Every little bit helps!"
Take care,
Chuck
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#57876 - 04/07/03 02:26 AM
Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
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Senior Member
Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 3319
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The C2 is surely a suspended chord.
a suspension is a note held over from a previous harmony. For example, to get to F you may go Bb (F, Bb, D,) to C sus 2 (G, D, E,) to C (G, C, E) to F (A, C, F). Thus the D note is suspended from the Bb chord to the C Sus 2. With the suspended fourth there is almost the same thing: Bb (Bb, D, F), to C7 Sus 4 (G, Bb, C, F) to C7 (G, Bb, C, E) to F (A, C, F). Here there is a strong pull from the F to the E, and then a strong pull (actually the strongest musical pull) from leading note to tonic (E to F) and from the minor seventh of the dominant 7th chord to the mediant of the tonic (Bb to A).
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#57877 - 04/07/03 03:12 AM
Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
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Senior Member
Registered: 04/01/01
Posts: 4339
Loc: Norway
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Very interesting reading in this tread.... Myself, I'm not any good at this stuff, but I've found a good tool to help me out when struggling to find where to put the fingers to make it sound reasonable right. It is called WinChord and works nice on the PC, even with Win XP. For those of us who might need a little help, it is downloadable from my Website at the Progs page. No install needed, just run it from the folder after unzip. (Only 38 kb) I don't remeber where I first found it, but I'm pretty sure it is freeware ![](http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif) Happy playing GJ
_________________________
Cheers 🥂 GJ _______________________________________________ "Success is not counted by how high you have climbed but by how many you brought with you." (Wil Rose)
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#57882 - 04/08/03 02:23 AM
Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
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Member
Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 403
Loc: United Kingdom
|
Good Morning Alec,
Your next to last post in which you discuss the Csus2 chord forced me to put my thinking cap on and do some reaearch, hence my delay in responding. Please understand I am not being argumentative or disputing your harmonic logic. I'm merely trying to contribute positively, and hopefully constructively, to this thread which began with KN6Guy's question regarding the C2 chord he was playing.
I have searched my two books on harmony and nowhere is a Csus2 chord mentioned, let alone discussed. I have a book entitled "7,488 Keyboard Chords", another entitled "The Complete Encyclopedia of Chords", and still another, "The Definitive Chord Book for Jazz and Popular Organ", and none mention a Csus2 chord. It is certainly not a commonly used chord in harmony and it is possible it is a misnomer.
This will be a bit long-winded and I apologize to our readers for that, but there is no other way to say what I believe to be the case regarding the so-called Csus2 chord.
It is true in harmony that ANY note can be suspended (sustained) from one chord to the next chord without breaking the rules of harmony. However, the word "suspension" implies something left hanging that needs to be resolved (released). It is a note that creates tension.
In your example of a Csus2 chord you cite the notes G,D, and E. When determining whether a chord is a suspension or not, one must first look for a root note. All suspended chords include the root note of the chord name. In the case of your Csus2, there is no C note, therefore it is unlikely those notes comprise a Csus2 chord. I believe those notes are in fact the notes of an E minor chord. In your example of a C7sus4 chord, the root note C is played, hence it is a legitimate suspension of a C chord - in this case a C7sus4 chord.
You remarked, "The C2 is surely a suspended chord." I concede the "sound" of the notes G,D, and E, when played, create the same sound effect (tension) as a suspended chord when played in isolation, i.e., without reference to any other chord in a progression. The problem lies in naming the notes G,D, and E as a Csus2 chord. Let us consider for a moment the Csus4 chord and its notes C,F, and G. The rules of harmony dictate that to be a legitimate suspended chord, the suspended note must resolve within the chord being played, not upon a new chord. Therefore, in the case of a Csus4 chord, a C chord is being played and the F is resolved to E.
In the case of your Csus2 chord (notes G,D, and E), each note forms the root note of a chord and none of the chords formed use the note C. That is why I suspect the Csus2 designation is a misnomer and the notes are in fact part of a legitimate chord - in this case, I believe, an Eminor or Eminor7. When you play G,D, and E (Eminor), then play the note C, you are changing chords (moving from Eminor to C major). Thus the three notes cannot be a Csus2 chord by rule and definition.
I don't know if this discussion sheds any more light on the subject or not, and again I say, if anyone can add more to what has been said already, please do. I love to learn.
We have a beautiful sunny day here in the U.K. and the thought of being on a golf course is overwhelming, so that is where I am headed. I hope everyone has a sunny day.
Best Regards to All, Chuck
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#57890 - 04/08/03 04:32 PM
Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
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Senior Member
Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 3319
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We go round the houses in these types of discussions and hopefully learn something along the way. Not to lose focus on the original point and to try and address Chuck's point, the "implied root" depends on the application, outside of apc you might play it under the chords e.g. Bb, D, F on Bb > G, D, E on C resolving to G, C, E on C > A, C, F on F. The key point is the D suspended from the Bb to the C, and really nothing to do with Gsus4.
Way up the thread the original question was what is the difference between C2 (Csus2) and Cadd9. The answer to that question is the only difference is the distance of the 2nd from the root, the notes are the same (e.g CDEG or CEG oct+D). But you can see the note progression could fit by inversion.
However auto play chord works only by note matching, it does not vary the harmony according to inversion generally, as would be the case listening to the piano; apc does not recognise the relative positions of the notes. Thus for apc chord recognition Cadd2 and Cadd9 would be the same.
Each manufacturer has his own system for apc and the Technics system (especially Pianist Mode) is more based on what people play, than on a theory book. For example open voicings of 6/9 chords, and especially 13th chords. In this case, people play a C13 as Bb, E and A (the root is truly implied). Some theory books would give you C, E, G, Bb, D, F and A. Some other products will only recognise the 13th if you play a 7th underneath it. In the case of the Technics system it is reality which is the guide.
Even so, the 13th is ambiguous. Because of the keys keyboard players generally use, the notes E, Bb and D# are pretty much seen as C7#9 (or C7+9). But this is the same grouping (intervals) as the C13, but in the key of F#. So try setting up Pianist Mode, play E, Bb and D# with your right hand. The screen will say F#13 (which is of course correct). Now with your left hand play a C note (eg: an octave lower than the C under the E in your right hand) Watch the display change to C7#9. Do the same with C13 (Bb, E, A) and then play an F# bass note. The screen will show F#7#9. Then for the hell of it change the bass note to G...Gm6/9. Chords are indeed ambiguous, and sometimes it is easier to write a complex chord another way. The Technics system may be more capable than most of keeping up with what you do, but certainly in the case of Sus2 the absence of a root from your APC "friendly" chord will cause problems, because the keyboard can't in this case guess which chord you mean (especially because some teaching systems omit the fifth from the harmony to make it 'easier' to play).
So... you can get the Sus 2 'sound' by playing C,D,E,G. The screen will say Add 9. As an example, select 8 Beat Rock, V4 and Mute everything except Bass and Accomp 1. Set the tempo to about 80 and play each for one bar: Bb, Cadd9 (C,D,E,G: our Csus2 alternative), C, F. You'll hear the D note suspended from the Bb chord, and then resolving to C before ending on the tonic of F.
I suppose you could say there can be a big difference between piano type lead sheet chord description and actual apc implementation, and also a big difference in how different manufacturers will interpret the notes you play in apc. best regards,
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#57893 - 04/09/03 08:35 AM
Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
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Member
Registered: 01/30/01
Posts: 344
Loc: NJ, USA
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Wow. what a really cool conversation. Loaded with interesting facts about chords. Thank you both technicsplayer and Chuck. So technicsplayer, then the only diff between a C2 and Cadd9th, is in the Cadd9th, the 2nd note (or 9th) is played on top. Or rather, the highest note in the chord. Other than that they are the same.
I always seen them as the same. Generally when I play music, I'm playing from what I call a "lead sheet". Maybe it's a standard. Bascially on this will be the melody and the chords written out over the melody line. Once in a while there may be a few added phrases between during vocal rests. So when I play (in a band) using these "lead sheets", I have lots of freedom to improvise. I play any inversion I "feel" like playing of the listed chord. But often I use the melody line for my highest note (but not always). Anyway, I've just gotten into a habit of playing with the left hand C, G, C for the bass and C, D, G with the right hand for my C2. Leaving out the 3rd on my right hand. And now that you mention it, I think I've only seen the Cadd9 when the D note is the melodic note of that chord.
Thanks again you guys. This has been a very imformative thread. I must confess though I don't use one of those arrangers with auto chord play. I'm not even sure what the "Technics Discussion" board is for. I simply found this thread by checking "new postings as of today" a while back and seen the posting subject and was curious so I read it.
Wild.
Thanks again. Bob <><
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#57904 - 04/11/03 08:58 AM
Re: Chord Knowledge/Theory
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Senior Member
Registered: 01/02/00
Posts: 3781
Loc: San Jose, California
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I am going to lock this topic now as it is getting too long. Chuck has started a new topic on this subject that is really a great topic for this forum. Thanks to all that have contributed. Let us keep it going for the benefit of all that will learn a great deal from your posts. Best to all Bebop ------------------ BEBOP Moderator SynthZone TECHNICS FORUM http://www.synthzone.com/cgi-bin/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&number=25 Bill Forrest in SAN JOSE, CALIF. USA bforrest@ix.netcom.com ICQ # 562519 Homepage http://www.anycities.com/bebop/
_________________________
BEBOP
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