Arthur makes an interesting point.

The even bigger picture is that to stay in business every company needs to make profits. Irrespective of smaller factors like individual product differences and competitiveness, companies need cashflow to satisfy shareholders and keep employees in jobs. Without the consumer constantly buying new products the whole system would collapse. No consumer wants to buy shares on Wall Street at the moment and the system does not look healthy...

With the progress in technology it is probably easier to convince consumers to buy a new keyboard than many other more mature market technologies because there is always some new gizmo you can put in with the advance in microprocessors and relative cheapness of memory over time. This looks to hold for a few more years yet I guess.

Keyboards now have to compete with computer games, CD, DVD, satellite, video, digital cameras, all sorts of things for the attention of consumers... things that were not there in the more simple days of just music lovers buying a piano or organ???

The real shame is - there are less and less PLAYERS buying keyboards. The average home buyer is expecting the thing to play itself. No one is taking serious lessons anymore unless they have a plan to go pro.

Who in their right mind would buy an expensive organ or piano, if they couldn't make it sound good? Auto arrangers and one touch play have turned modern living rooms into karaoke concert halls.

It's all about toys. We all need our toys.
I use keyboards to make my living, and there is not enough emphasis on the modern pro's needs. There is more attention given to the home market than the pro market these days. The manufacturers don't even relize how much the professional music scene has changed in the last 20 years. If they did - they would be making the gear we need .... instead - it's all plastic junk with flimsy switches and wobbly buttons, or it's heavy beasts with enormous cases !

it is not surprising that the design of auto arrangers is geared towards the home player, because that is where the biggest market lies. Your 'pro' market must be tiny in comparison.

I've been asked to make disks for music school purposes in my time, and see plenty of kids happy to start learning playing along to a sequence. Nowadays they just would not stand playing scales for hours, because there are too many other distractions in their world. If it gets more kids started, then surely there are greater chances that more will carry on and take their music further.

You could argue that auto arrangers have meant that never before have so many home players been able to produce such good sounds before.

or maybe, the arangers are producing the great sounds and the owners are tagging along for the ride.

I'm all for anything that gets a kid interrested in playing music, but the scales, and arpeggios, theory etc .... it's paramount to actually PLAYING music. Using arrangers is more like a "pint by numbers" approach to art. It's not a bad thing, but it doesn't really develope chops at all.

Yes, the pro market is small, as it is with most professions ... if it was easy - everyone would do it. The tool is not the most important element here, but the right one sure helps the cause.

Please don't take this as a negitive comment about home users. it's NOT. I am mearly stating that the playing technic is being ignored at the early stages, these days, and that's not going to produce more players ... just more owners.

The whole point about home players is they do it for fun, enjoyment, relaxation and a sense of personal achievement. They do not need to earn a living playing, because perhaps using their talents to earn a lot of money in other areas of endeavour, thus allowing them to buy the same boards that the pros use? After all if my job was easy then everyone would do it. Please don't take this as a negative comment about pro players, it's NOT.

I just see no difference whatsoever in an expert player selecting that machine which suits his 'feel' and needs and which helps in producing the most relaxed and best in performance, and the home player selecting the best auto board to do exactly the same for their own particular needs.

My point was simply that if we just had pianos and scales, you would surely have a great many less kids learning anything about music at all in the days of computer games, dvds, etc etc etc.

I didn't mean to suggest that only pros should have pro gear. Not by a long shot. I know plenty of so called "pros" that should not be in the business at all.

My only real point is that kids are not taking the time to really learn how to play the instruments, if most of the work is done for them. I think there is a lot of positive value in the "attraction" to the instrument, and I personally would rather run scales on a diferent sound than an acoustic piano, so there are lots of variations to the approach.
I just wish more kids would take the time to really woodshed and disect the technique. It's so important, and soon - there will be no technicians in any field. There are already way too many lawyers and computer operators ... we need mechanics, plumbers and artists too. Work with the hands is essential. I fear that the automation (in ALL areas) is zapping the skill right out of our bodies. It's not about entertainment ... it's about basic survival.

I play music for my living because I am called to the job. It's a vocation as well as a quest. Not everyone is suited for the "business" end of show biz, but I thrive on it, and would be lost if the opportunity ever dissapeared.

An interesting philosophical viewpoint... not mutually exclusive to my point. If less kids start off, there will be less to get the bug and carry on with more serious study. If we just had pianos and no auto arrangers nowadays I feel sure there would be very many less starting, therefore many less would carry on.

As to too many lawyers, the problem is that they are all employed getting the crooks off, whereas we could use them sticking all the crooks on Wall Street in jail!

There can never be too many lawyers.

Just kidding there.

Anyway, you'd be surprised how many lawyers are "artists" in their private life, wether it's painting, music, or other stuff. There are some gifted individuals out there.

I'm pretty sure you weren't implying that lawyers cannot be artistically gifted, but nonetheless...

Uncle Dave, I like the way you express yourself. Your remark, (a "pint by numbers" approach) reminds me of old Uncle Al, rest his soul. A pint by the numbers was his approach also. After work he would go to the local pub and his practice was to have a pint. After number one pint he would start on number two pint. Two became three pints. After maybe pint number four or pint five he would try to find his way home. After getting home this type of practice would tend to manifest itself in his playing. His playing tended to be in a more romantic vain. Poor old Aunt Minnie sometimes didn’t take very kindly to his style of romantical playing. Especially after his pint by the numbers practice. One thing would lead to another and after awhile old Uncle Al would receive a bust in the mouth from Antie. I don’t know how this had anything to do with developing his chops but he didn’t seem to mind. Once in a while he would sport a lump on his head or a black eye but paramount to actually playing, his practice of a pint by the numbers never changed to the day he died of cirrhosis of the liver. As far as scales and theory are concerned as far as I can determine, old Uncle Al’s theory was after weighing his theory of having fun against the arpeggios of life, or you might say the ups and downs of life, he chose his way. Just like Frankie used to sing, “MY WAY”. May old Unk and Antie rest in peace after enjoying life.

Uncle Dave Quote - “I am merely stating that the playing technic is being ignored at the early stages, these days, and that's not going to produce more players ... just more owners” unquote. Uncle Dave, these days are not those days when we were young. With the advent of more and more things viewing for the attention of younger people it is at this point in time imperative for music to capture it’s share. First live, then wax, wire, followed by tape, etc. and now Digital. Stored enmass mechanically and now by SD chips and the like. It seems the older folks for the most part, have a hard time with the new of the now. Always has been and most likely always will be. You say these days are not going to produce more players, just more owners. Only a few generations ago was the advent of the piano as we know it. How could you develop chops on the piano if there was none. First must come the piano before the practice. And so is it now. First more owners and then the players will follow. Some will go farther than others I admit. There must be bad players in order to make the good players stand out. When the word pro sounds good to your ears, why does it? Because pro means one gets paid for his efforts? Because that’s all he does for a living? Because he’s a better player than others? I heard a few pro’s who stink in my estimation. Did Louie A have a good singing voice? Made big bucks with it. I tend to think it all depends how one uses what they got. I got what I got, I found out to use it and it makes me some good change on the side and I have moocho fun. I believe it bugs you that guys like me go out and earn good money on the side and enjoy it without the years of laborious practice you had to go through. I can understand that. During WW2 and a short time after I used to make a lot of money plowing, disking and then harrowing victory gardens. Somebody invented the rototiller. It plowed, disked and harrowed a piece of ground in one pass. Bingo, it was done and better than I did it the old way. Everybody could afford one. I was ticked. The art of carriage making succumbed to the automobile. People still ride horses but not to the extent or purpose that it used to be. I threw out my accounting firm. Bought a five hundred dollar accounting program for my thirty five hundred dollar computer. Hooked it up to a twenty three hundred dollar laser printer and paid for the whole ball of wax in less than a year. This has added nicely to my bottom line for many years following. I canned my printing service and am doing it in house on the computer system also.

We have new music and old music side by side today. We have the old way of making music and the new way of making music side by side also. The old way of listening still exists alongside the new way today also. The old way of thinking is side by side with the new.

Before the end result must be the tools to make it. First we must get the tools in the hands of the apprentice, the one desiring to learn. How to use the tool then comes next followed by much practice of the tool. The end product then follows. The one with much practice and becomes proficient with his tools makes the best end product. The best product sells the best, and around and around she goes and where she stops nobody knows as said by old Major Bows of the amateur hour. Many kids became pros, with the help of Major Bows. I’m a poet and I don't know it. Not bad eh?

I find it very hard to take my thoughts and put them into words. Think my next project will be to invent a thinking machine. I’ll put my thinking hat on, you put your thinking hat on. Turn the thinking valve one way and my thinks will go into your thinks. Turn the valve the other way and it will reverse the flow. That idea becomes even more appealing. Dave, we will each put on our think hat. We will turn the flow in my direction. My next gig will will be a knock out. Oh Oh! The down side. How much will you charge me to let your brains flow into mine. Maybe not as much profit for me as I thought. Getting back to what I was going to say. Thoughts don’t get along very well with words. Words like to screw up what thoughts are trying to think. Thinking is trying to tell words to tell other people what thinking is thinking about. In the process, words sometimes have a mind of their own and mess everything up. Maybe that’s why when Ruthie opens her mouth and the words flow out, I ask her what in the world are you thinking about? Are you nuts or something? Ruthie likes me I know. Her words have a mind of their own and try to cause argument. After all, one of the main reasons for their existence is for argument, seems to me. As far as I am concerned, I like words. Writing down words gives me something to do. A lot of times I don’t listen to myself. Therefore at a later time reading what I said could be very entertaining to say the least. For the most part what I have to say has no real value so I substitute value for volume. Volume is valuable. It dilutes understanding. That way people don’t really understand what you are saying. Professors keep their jobs that way. They lecture for long periods of time. Students lose tract of the subject but think he really knows his stuff. I learned much from Politicians. If nothing else they know the art of using words to say nothing of the subject at hand so nobody could hold them responsible for the things they thought he was saying. Preachers the same way. I really can’t say much about them even though I changed churches 9 times. What I can say is the sermon was a great time for a nice nap. Ruthie got tired of nudging me with her elbow because she claimed I snored. This is why we read the bible at home now. Great book and great ideas. Moody says there is over five hundred varieties of christianity. Now we get the variety of the big boss. At this point I don’t remember what I was talking about besides Ruthie wants me to get ready to go over to the grand kids birthday party. After the party, got to pack a few duds and my pills because tomorrow we’re off to see Art. the three of us, Ruthie, me and my pills. Don’t laugh. It takes gas to make the car go and pills to keep me running. Some day you’ll be there.

Grandpa Doug

I think UD meant 'paint' by numbers', not 'pint', but then again, it certainly would take many pints of paint to cover a house.

Checkout this thread topic (Synthzone General Arrangers forum) for a discussion of playing 'music' by the numbers:
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/004051.html

Your input & comments on that thread would be appreciated: