Dear All,

Has anyone ever succeeded in using an expression pedal or other means to effect continuous/smooth tempo changes in realtime on their KN keyboards and/or PR digital ensembles, so that the music can be imparted with a very live feel, able to be sped up and slowed down instantaneously by the desired amount, as is necessary when the piece calls for a lot of rubato, or when one is accompanying/playing with some singer(s) and/or solo player(s)?

Khai

Hi Khai,

I'm still not 100% as to what 'board you own but assuming it might be a KN series, have you mastered the art of programming the 6th (Control) track.

Basically it allows you to control the various settings of the 'board during the playing of the piece, i.e. tempo, panel memory, variation, global effects, etc.

Anyway, back to basics. The following applies if you've either step recorded the piece of played it 'ad-hoc' using the 'easy record' option:

1 - Record your piece and replay it to check for any 'errors'.
2 - Go to Program Menus, Sequencer, Step Record and select no. 6.
3 - On the beginning of the first measure, twiddle the tempo control to select the tempo for the start of the piece. The 'board will then ask you a 'yes or no' option to confirm the change.
4 - Carry on down the measures and change the tempo as and when you see fit as per no. 3.
5 - Press 'EXIT' a number of times until you're back at the normal screen and make sure you save your changes on the disk having replayed the piece the check if it sounds okay.

I hope this is of some help.

Mark

PS. Note to all; Luce is due back on Friday from Sri Lanka just in time for her birthday. I'm not sure of her plans but we'll try to celebrate in style.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Khai:

Has anyone ever succeeded in using an expression pedal or other means to effect continuous/smooth tempo changes in realtime on their KN keyboards and/or PR digital ensembles, so that the music can be imparted with a very live feel, able to be sped up and slowed down instantaneously by the desired amount, as is necessary when the piece calls for a lot of rubato, or when one is accompanying/playing with some singer(s) and/or solo player(s)?

You are making a good point Khia. An exciting song should not end at the same tempo it starts, (In my opinion) The change should be felt. Even when we become excited our speach begings to pick up a bit.

I sometimes use a tempo comtroll in the panel memory when playing live.

A great example of this is the 2004 Katie Melua hit 'The closest thing to crazy'which changes almost from bar to bar from three four to four four.
Written back in the 1990's by Mike Batt of Wombles fame this must have been one of his most creative moments - it's also in 4 sharps which is not helpful!!!
However it is perhaps the most endearing song of 2004...

Happy Birthday to Luce on Friday and welcome home.
My wife Jann's birthday is today so she has taken a day off and we are going dinging around and buying her some neato presents if we can find any, then out to a pretentious dinner.
I am not going to tell Jann's age but........TODAY she is elgible for the reduced Social Security Dole, but can't get it cause she makes too much money. Bummer!!!
Have a Happy Day on your birthday Luce.
Bebop

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Getting to the Crux of Realtime Tempo Changes
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Dear All,

Thank you to those who responded to my question. But I believe that we are still back in square one, in terms of finding a real solution. So, please let me clarify the question or situation as follows:

We would not always be satisfied with the fixed results of using step recording to store various tempi throughout a song. After all, the song will always playback at the same tempi, and cannot be adapted or taylored to a different feel or rendition that requires a different evolution of tempo changes.

Imagine that you are really pining for a continuous realtime control of the tempo as a parameter that will change not only from moment to moment throughout a song, but also differently from one performance to another, depending on the context or situation. This degree of control of tempi will allow you to speed up or slow down according to the mood of your singer(s) and/or solo player(s), or according to the dramatic gestures and emotional contents of the music that you are playing. The crux of the matter is that since different singer(s) and/or solo player(s) perform differently, using step recording to store various tempi throughout a song not only defeats the purpose of live performance but also ignores the uniqueness and variability of each performance, and by extension, each singer and/or each player.

The only way that I can think of is to find some way of getting the expression pedal to control the tempo rather than the volume. I am not sure whether this is even remotely possible, or if there are other means that I have yet to discover.

I look forward to this breakthrough for all of us. Someone out there may have the solution . . . . .

Khai

[This message has been edited by Khai (edited 01-18-2005).]

I do believe that there is a new Khai posting on the forum.
A big welcome to the new Khai and my apologies to the old Khai for many things that were said.
Regards,
Walt
ps: I too would certainly like to be able to control the tempo in a smooth manner via a foot pedal. I might have an idea but it would require digging into the innards of the instrument and making some alterations. I'll have to give it some more thought.

Hi Khai,

I believe I understand what you're asking. I would call it "Sensed Tempo Play".

When using the accompaniment feature, remember it is computerized and therefore fixed. Yes the tempo can be changed using panel memories, or even playing along a sequence that has many variations in tempo movement. And lets not forget step record. But again these are fixed for that particular playing moment. The tempo may change from 100 to 105 back to 100 (over and over again). However, the next time you play it, you may "need" 102 to 106 to 99, but it's fixed at 100/105/100. It can be changed, but pre-changed (planned). What you're asking the Technics to do is, sense the tempo 100/105/100 during play. I don't think any Technics Model can do that.

Playing for singer Jane, her tempo may vary during a song. The tempo may vary/flow slightly, from 100 to 97, to 101. Having another singer Mary, sing the exact same song, her tempo may vary/flow slightly too, say 103 to 98, to 96 to 100.

One could setup/save the Technics accompaniment to follow the singers Jane and Mary but one would have to set two different versions. The only difference would be the tempo. Now here's the kicker. Yes, Jane during one singing session did flow from 100 to 97 to 101, but will she be able to do it again? Exactly? Maybe it would be 101 to 98 to 100 the next time she sings it.

I don't know the Technics term, but it does have loudness and softness key touch. That is, the harder you hit the keys the louder it sounds, the lighter you hit the keys the softer the sound. This is by feel and movement during live play and the Technics instruments can sense that. What you're seeking is a similar feature but with Tempo.

I'm not familiar with other brand of instruments, which may already have something what you are seeking "Sensed Tempo Play"??? The instrument would have to adjust to the tempo flow somehow while playing and knowing when to slow and speed up naturally. Maybe Walt Meyer has an "idea"???

Anthony


[This message has been edited by AnthonyCian (edited 01-18-2005).]

Thanks, Anthony. You reflected the issue very well. Did you coin the term "Sensed Tempo Play"?

Let's hope that someone else among us has another take on the quintessential issue of tempo changes, which can sometimes make such a big difference in improving the live feel and emotional pull of a piece of music.

It would be really nice to have an elastic tempo, a touch of rubato, the emotional nip and tuck of music --- all that which mirror the ebb and flow of life, and the subtleties of creative expressions.

Perhaps, in the distant future, we may be able to communicate with and play our musical instruments (remotely) and also enhance or colour the nuances of our music via neural interfaces that transmit signals of our thoughts and emotions to those instruments.

Khai

The only instruments that I can recall that had this facility were the Yamaha Organs, i.e. HS8, Hx's,. They had a 2 pedal arrangement, One for expression and another for tempo( and some other things, but I can't remember what). These were available from the mid.1980's. One way of doing it is to program in a chord sequence to leave your left hand free to slow the tempo manually with the tempo/data wheel or maybe you can operate the tempo wheel whilst you are playing.
peter b

[This message has been edited by peter.bentley@talk21.com (edited 01-19-2005).]

[This message has been edited by peter.bentley@talk21.com (edited 01-19-2005).]

Dear Peter,

You read my mind, so to speak! I nearly bought the Yamaha Organ HS8 at the time but at the last moment was introduced to the Technics GN organs ---- probably a change of course for the better. Would you agree?

Khai

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The Lack of Multi-Purpose Interface
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Dear All,

I think that the current issue of having more realtime control over tempo could have been solved, had Technics/Panasonic allowed assignable functions on one or more of the following accessories:

(1) Expression Pedal
(2) Pitch Wheel
(3) Modulation Wheel

Why these three assets had to have their functions carved out so inflexibly to the exclusion of other uses is really beyond me. What a triple pity!!!

Khai

I have always wanted a 'ritard' button similar to the 'fade in/fade out' function ... a tempo control via a foot pedal would really be nice!!! .... However, now that technics is out of the kb business we are not going to see it on a technics board unless someone comes up with an after - market device ....
t.

[This message has been edited by tony mads usa (edited 01-19-2005).]

Dear Tony,

How true! An accel/retard button or wheel with adjustable ranges would definitely spice up the music.

Having a small disc-like device (much like that used by DJs) and/or a multi-directional joystick on our Technics instruments will also bring many possibilities. Such interfaces, unlike the tempo dial, can sense secondary qualities such as acceleration, decceleration, latency or other more complex gestures. Better still, how about motion sensing?

Pardon my occasional wishful thinking......

Khai