I have a question. I record using the Realtime Record mode. I record a trumpet on Rt1 (Track 1) and an alto sax on Rt2 (Track 2). I play them back and they play as recorded. Then I use the Track Merge feature to merge Tracks 1 & 2 to Track 9. When I play Track 9, the alto sax voice has been changed to a trumpet. Why? What is the sense of having a Track Merge feature if you cannot merge two tracks containing different information (trumpet and sax for example)?

In the days of multi-track tape recorders we could merge tracks containing violins, trumpets, saxophones or whatever and they would be faithfully reproduced on the new track. It makes no sense to me to have a Track Merge feature if it restricts you to a single voice when merging.

Can someone shed some light on this subject? Thanks.

Best Wishes, Chuck

Hi Chuck,
I will try to give you a bit understanding about your 'problem'.
At first: one must realise that the sequencer (as the word 'sequence' says itself) reads the data from 1 to ....(end).
Each data has his own meaning as:
Data1: do that (eg. play a pianosound)
Data2: do that (e.g. play the C-note)
Data3: do that (eg. play the G-note)
Data4: do that (eg. play a violin-sound)
Data5: do that (e.g. set the effect on)
etc. etc.

The best example is to look in the sequencer menu in Record & Edit and than Step Recording. When you let roll along the cursor you will see that each 'asterix' means something.
Mostly it is a note-data. It could be other data, like sounddata (when you have entered a new sound) or Pitchbend-data (when you use the pitchbendwheel or Effectdata etc.
So when the song/track is started the keyboard reads and execute each data in a sequence.
When you have made in track 1 a sequence (and at the beginning the sound is entered as piano), that track can be heared as a pianotrack (unless somewhere you have entered a new sound)
When you have made in track 2 another sequence (eg. a violin) you will hear all the track long the violin.
If you merge those tracks, you have a problem.
It is a new sequence and the Operating System reads the data in sequence and probably on measure 1 he finds a piano almost directly follows by a violin. So this track only let you hear the last data (the violin).
If you whish to repair that, it only can be done manually.
You have to enter the sounds in each note that has to produce a certain instrument, you can imagine a thought job.
So maybe it is simplier to maintain the two tracks (you have 16 tracks).
Hope I clearify the principle of sequencing,
success,
Cees

just a fundamental difference between midi and audio, Chuck, so not an appropriate comparison. Audio merge mixes the audio waveforms of two different instruments to a final track that is the sum of the different waveforms whatever the waveforms were. Midi merge combines the note and other data of two tracks. Since the final midi track can have any instrument applied to play, it can do things your audio merge cannot since once recorded your trumpet and sax in audio they cannot be changed to piano and strings. Each midi track can have one instrument, although you can change instruments through the timeline of the tracks as you go along, you have multitrack sequencers because it is easier to edit with one instrument per track. So it really is a question of apples and pears with different sets of uses and limitations with each method.
Midi merge has many useful functions, you can record left and right hand piano parts separately and then merge the result for instance.

Chuck,

I'm not sure why you want to merge the 2 tracks, when you already have the 2 tracks playing together...which brings me to my question...What is the purpose of Track Merge in Technics format. Isn't 16 enough?



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Larry Hawk
Technics For All

Technicsplayer, I am left confused. What have I gained after merging right and left hand piano tracks? What other useful functions would I get by merging?

I am always open to learn, John C.

Midi merge has many useful functions, you can record left and right hand piano parts separately and then merge the result for instance.[/B][/QUOTE]

you gain a single track from two separate ones, John, thereby freeing up tracks. In creating a realistic guitar style you might play midi guitar. There may be advantages in having strums on one track and picking notes on another since velocity editing for multi-samples would be easier. Combining the result makes it possible to put it into accomp 1 of the composer, leaving the other composer tracks available. Limited only by imagination and the easiest workflow for any given job.

So Track Merge is intended for Midi Files, and not Technic Files ?

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Larry Hawk
Technics For All

Not only for midi, Larry.
TMO it is too handy in practical use to make for instance a own rhythm/style.
In this case one could use multitracking in an effective way. As an example.
Suppose you want to have a nice accomp1-rhytm with a guitar.
You could work as follows (eg. all in 2 measures).
Track 1: record a simple lead-melody
Track 2: add some notes
Track 3: add another single note
Track 4: just another single note.
If all is OK than merge all together and copy the 2-measured sequence to the composer to finish.
The benefits in this way are that, in case of working in one track one can easier delete, change the single notes in track x etc. etc.
Especially for drumtracks it could be a effective way to compose. (unless one uses specific software)
Cees

Hi Larry,

Not necessarily used for only midi files,,,I use the kn7000 sequencer when recording music and save as a technics file....rarely though would I need to merge tracks; for example say I record track 7 and 8, which may be a piano sound but for only one musical staff line, I may have one tracked panned left and another right for more stereo seperation....if I ran out of tracks and wanted to add a 17th, I could merge 7 and 8 which would allow me to sequence another track,,,,have only ran into this problem once or twice as 16 tracks is usually plenty..plus audio data on top of that!

Thanks for the info. But in regards to Chuck's original question concerning merging track 1 and track 2, which is Right 1, and Right 2 Sounds, there would be no point in merging these two tracks in relation with a Technics File because....
I always thought that if you merge 2 tracks (with different parts)into one, only one of those trcks will be merged into the destination track
Example:
If you try to merge:
Track 1 (Right Sound 1)
with
Track 2 (Right Sound 2)
and merge both to
Track 14

Only Track 1 will be included in Track 14, because Track 1 was the upper source track on the Track Merge Screen. Thus the new track is assigned the same part as the upper track. So why do that?

Confused yet ? Well kinda ..



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Larry Hawk
Technics For All

Hi,
I've had use for the merge function for pad creation. I normally create pads ( & styles) from midifiles and so I use the kn sequencer. As pads 5 & 6 only have 1 instrument track & 1 chord track,
I've had to mix 2 tracks together to create 1.

Possibly another use might be if creating a complicated drum track ( from scratch) if doing multi track recording in the kn.

A question was asked on the KN7 about Punch In recording ( we weren't sure if the kn had it, but susequently I noticed it does.)
From what I understood the member wanted to add extra drums to a drum track using Punch In facilities, but I wasn't sure if the kn did it.
Anyway I thought this alternative might be of some help to him.

Possibly another way of using merge function.
---------------------------------------
Record your basic track drums ie bass & snare.(ie track 9 )
Then track 8 record your hhats, if it all sounds okay, merge the 2 tracks together to track (track 7), if not just rerecord the hhat track, at least you haven't disturbed your original Bass & Snare track.
Now that track 8&9 have been merged into( track 7),
record your cymbals on track 8
if all is okay merge track 7&8 to
track 9 if you're going to add more drums,
OR to track 10 if you've completed your drum recording.

You could virtually build up quite a complicated drum track, by merging drum tracks together.
--------------------------------------------
I also convert the odd style using sequencer to style function. The thing that gives me the most grief with a converted style is usually the drum track. Velocities of the drums can be a problem. A drum track played on a psr may not sound right on a kn because the bass drum might end up being drowned out by a hihat etc etc.
I recently came across a utility program that separates a drum track ( from a midifile) into separate tracks ie bass drum track 1, snare track 2 etc etc what this allows me now to do is give each of these drum instruments their own midi channel. I save it as a midifile, load it into the kn7 sequencer, adjust the velocities
Sequencer
Range Edit
Velocity Change
till I get the the drums sounding right, then I can merge them all back to track 10.
I have to do it via Velocity Change Not Via Volume on each of the tracks, because once they're merged back together into track 10 they take on a global volume for the track.

best wishes
Rikki

if you merge 2 tracks the destination track contains the contents of the 2 tracks. Whether the destination track is R1, R2 or Tr14 is immaterial since you can assign it to whatever part you wish, move it where you want, and use whatever voices you like.

The perfect answer for this question Larry was written years ago in the KN6000 book in one of the Programming Performance Pads exercises where 3 accompaniment tracks were merged into 2 tracks so they could be put in the pads where the limit is 2 tracks. Thus you gained a 2 track pad with all the information that had previously been in 3 tracks.

Great Answers...I never got that book (my mistake). My last question on this topic. Acoording to the Technics Manual:

If the part assigned to the upper source track (upper meaning its position on the Track merge dispay) is different from the part assigned to the lower source track, when the parts are merged in the destination track, the new track is assigned the same part as the upper track

So if I understand this, both sounds, right one and right two, are merged into the destination track, then track 2 can be used to add another sound?

I gotta get that book...



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Larry Hawk
Technics For All

Hi All,

The responses to my question have been super. I thank all of you.

I want to clarify one thing. When I recorded trumpet on Rt1 and sax on Rt2, I played an ascending C scale with the trumpet and a descending C scale with the sax as a test in order to differentiate the tracks/voices. BOTH tracks transferred (merged) to Track 9. The only problem was the sax voice was changed to a trumpet. So I ended up with a trumpet playing ascending and descending C scales. Therefore, the scale note information remained intact and transferred faithfully. For some reason the instrument (KN) changes the voice of Rt2 to that of Rt1. I see no reason, electronically (or digitally) speaking, why the voice information on Rt2 cannot be transferred as well since the voice information on Rt1 was transferred with no problem. It appears to me to be a function of design and programming, not that it cannot be done.

Thanks again to all of you.

Chuck

I frequently use the merge facility to build up a Drum track. Being a drummer, if I am creating a drum track in real time using the Composer, I like to get it as near as possible, to how I would play the rhythm on my real kit. Now this involves two feet as well as two hands, and it's a bit difficult getting all four extremities on the KN7000 keyboard, at the same time
So, I generally start off by laying down the Bass drum pattern and maybe the Hi-Hat on a single track. (Left and Right foot parts by hand) I will then play this back and add Left and Right hand parts using say Snare drum and Ride Cymbals, then merge the two tracks to a single track. I sometimes add in further drum sounds on another track and then merge again, to build up the finished single drum track.

------------------
Willum

yes Larry, that's it, and the actual part (or even voice) assigned is immaterial because you can now reassign it to whatever you like after the merge anyway.

all sequencers are designed for one instrument per track Chuck unless you go in and change instruments within the timeline of that track, thus what you describe is normal for any sequencer, keyboard or pc. But if you have too many instrument changes within many tracks you will end up with timing and/or polyphony issues on cheaper equipment so it is not a good idea anyway.

Hi Chuck,

I think the reason that you are only hearing one instrument is that at any one time, you can only assign a single sound to a particular track. You cannot have a track assigned to both Sax and Trumpet sounds at the same time If you have a look at the Mixer page in the sequencer, you will see that each track has a particular single sound assigned to it. If you reverse the assignment of your sounds, ie Sax in RT1 and Trumpet in RT2 and then repeat the operation, you will probably find that both voices are then Sax If this is the case, and I haven't tried it, then it would seem that when you merge the two sounds, the RT1 voice takes precedence.
Basically, if you want the two different voices to play together, the simple way to achieve this is to just leave them un-merged.


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Willum

[This message has been edited by Bill Norrie (edited 01-08-2004).]

Looks like Alec and I were typing at the same time.....

I have actually had to do this on the KN1000 in the days when the sequencer only had 8 tracks, but merging the played 2 tracks and just assigning alternate instruments into the single merged track... today it's pointless

Thanks Alec and Willum for your additional comments. If I read you correctly, Alec, you are saying what I said in my last sentence above, namely that the one voice per track limitation is a function of design - not that merging two voices cannot be done with digital technology. I'm sure 16 tracks will give me enough latitude when recording in normal circumstances. My thanks again to both of you for your responses. Take care.

Best Wishes, Chuck

exactly right, Chuck, you only use merge when you need it, and although mixing voices on one track is perfectly possible, it just makes editing unnecessarily complicated

Hi Chuck,

It would seem that the best example of why you would use a midi track merge is the for the drums.

Since the normal way drums are recorded on the Technics keyboards is to use 2 tracks when this file is converted to midi, merging both to track 10 allows them to play on a computer without needing to edit the file and reassign midi channels.

If they are not merged then you need to load the midi file into a sequencer program and make sure both tracks are set to midi channel 10 which almost all sound cards use as the default channel for drums.

Technics has chosen to uses a 16 Track sequencer where each Track equeals one one the 16 Midi Channels. On most sequencers a Track as no channel assignment.

Power Tracks for example has 255 Tracks yet it can still only use 16 midi channels. Each channel sends note data and control data.

So how does this relate to your question?

For the sake of speed and convience, each midi channel carries one instrument patch(sound)at any given time and the note data that goes with it. The last patch data sent before the next note data is the one used for the notes until another patch data is sent. So if you record 2 tracks of information say track one is patch 1(piano) and notes cdefg and track 2 is patch 57(trumpet) and notes gfedc when the tracks are merged (depending of timing) the merged track would look something like this.

Patch 1
Patch 57
c
g
d
f
e
e
f
d
g
c

As you can see all the notes would sound as a trumpet.

To mix them and make both patches work the file would need to be edited to

Patch 1
c
Patch 57
g
Patch 1
d
Patch 57
f
Patch 1
e
Patch 57
e
Patch 1
f
Patch 57
d
Patch 1
g
Patch 57
c

The problem here is that if both notes happen to play at exactly the same instant in time the channel would not be able to send both notes so only the last one would be heard anyway.

I hope this helps explain it.

Heather

Thanks, Heather, for your detailed explanation. And thanks to everyone else for shedding some light on this subject. You are a great bunch of people and appreciated more than you know.

Best Wishes to All,

Chuck