Expression! Use a pedal or do you get your dynamics with touch sensitivity and aftertouch. When old organ players come over to my house many of them can’t handle my keyboard. They are all over the place with their right hand. Loud, soft, sometimes nothing. When I recognize this I set the touch sensitivity to zero. Now there back in business. To a certain extent that is. Sounds kind of blaa because of no expression. Now I have to resurrect my expression pedal from the junk room and slap it on the board. What a pain in the rear end hauling that floppy pedal along on a job also. Just another hunk of junk to contend with. In fact if you want one, because it is not included, you must fork more bucks over. I think the only reason technics made one available was for old frustrated converted organ players. I think touch sensitivity along with after touch gives much more control over the dynamics of playing. Much, much more overall control of the keyboard and voicing. Now that I have got a few feathers ruffled and a little smoke oozing out of some ears what do you all think and how do you prefer to express your expressions? The great design of the board is all set to go with touch sensitivity and after touch and it all works beautifully. An add on of an expression pedal only dumbs down the over all elegance of the extremely well designed little beauty. Just my opinion guys, how about yours. Another plus is I don’t have any problems with it like some of you guys because I don’t use it. Like Ruthie always says to me, keep it simple stupid! Give me some reasons for or against what I have just spread out on the table of discussion.

Grandpa Doug

Granpa Doug
you are correct about the aftertouch. I am one of those old oganists. I have used a pedal for forty years, and have been guilty in the past of riding the pedal. In fact my wife would tell me that I would sometimes tap my pedal in time, which was less than appealing.
I have cured myself of that and use atertouch on more staccato passages. I still use an expression pedal for ogan sounds etc..

The other main reason is overall volume. If I switch to a voice while performing and it is way too loud, I can hit the pedal faster than the volume control and still have both hands to play with. A panic pedal,if you will.
I will concede that it is mainly there as a footrest and panic button,but is useful for orchestral and other legato passages.

Doug:
Please consider that I use my keyboard both as an "arranger" keyboard and as a "mini organ" with a set of roland midi pedals.
Music with automated rhythm backing is not suitable for all venues and all styles of music. In many cases, an expression pedal is an absolute necessity because not all voices are touch sesitive nor should they be.
I am not a frustrated organ player. I use the keyboard with auto backing 99% of the time, but when the expression pedal is needed, it should work properly.
I don't agree that the pedal is a "piece of junk" to be "hauled around", but is a useful adjunct to a great instrument when used properly.
It seems that there have been enough complaints about the volume suddenly changing that there may very well be a problem with the operating system. After all, nothing is perfect -- particularly with the release of a new product.
Just MY thoughts.
Walt

Gramps Doug,
I to am a converted organ player. I use the expression pedal as Bernie does and also because the arthritis in my hands does not allow a hard touch.

Fran in Florida, another old fellow

Grandpa Doug,

It is always my goal to let the instrument I play on my KN7000 sound as natural as possible. So I try to play a certain instrument as it is played originally. That means that I use only touch sensitivity on piano, (acoustic) guitar, harp, etc. But some instruments have the need for (de)cresendo during notes and that must be done with the swell pedal, as I mostly use the aftertouch for other effects. How dull would a Hammond sound when you rip the swell.
I use the swell pedal only for the parts I play myself, not for the accompaniment. I think this adds to a much more expressive song.
Regards, Ad.

I know. I know I know. Fran in sunny florida I know. Many of my friends here in the north got it too. I thank my God I have not made friends with Arthur Ritus yet. About ten years ago they carved out my gallbladder. Still did not take all the gaul out of all my bladder or is it blabber. Ruthie says I have a warped sense of humor. If I have learned anything these past many years it is not to disagree with Ruthie. Besides being cut off for a while, the quality of food remarkably goes down. Anyway Bernie I know about the pedal being a great way to keep time. Very popular in some circles. Some people have found other uses for it also. My youngest daughter is an audiologist. I suggested she come over to some of the organ clubs I have attended. A great place to find new customers. Easy to pick out new hearing aid customers. Some of these people either can’t hear or play very loud so you can’t hear each other talk. Kind of a captive audience, so to speak. Now now Walt. Easy on this old guy. I only made some of those statements to get your goat and stimulate some conversation. And that it did. In case some of you in keyboard land don’t know, Walt had a business across the street from me for a number of years. Walt and my brother Jim, were kind of organ nuts at that time. Me? After digging in the dirt and chasing lawn mowers all day long I loved to shower, slide into my tux, adjust my bow tie, slide into my jacket, take my sax and clarinet in hand and blow my brains out half the night on the band stand. Ruthie? She took care of the six kids, bless her little heart. Which reminds me, valentines day is coming. Must remember to get her something red to smell and some sweets for her pretty little tummy, seeing I’ll be away evenings playing for some Valentine hilarity's. Wonder if Ruthie would like to come along. Think I’ll ask her.

Walt, thank goodness your far away now and can’t smack me in the chops. Just funning you. But you did get me out of my chair and move me over to the KN. Gave the digital draw bar button a firm push and with great determination played some organ stuff with the R1 and R2 plus L all set up with organ draw bars. No dynamics, pure hammond, thru and thru. Went up and done the same thing with the organ and accordion little silver button. All were touch sensitive. Next tested the sound explorer. Both the pipe organ and electric organ voices were all touch sensitive. I know most all the electronic organs have a button on them that nobody ever uses except me, that I have run across. That little never used button on the organs of today is called dynamics or something to that effect. The best detective of today would have a hard time lifting a fingerprint off that button. Nothing but dust. What about pipe organs? How are real pipe organs made? Only played a few of them in my lifetime. I know most of them have after touch. That is, when more pressure is placed on the key after the initial touch with the key is made, another event happens. Great feature. Now as far as sensitivity in relation to the initial touch is concerned, I have never really paid any attention to it. Just pushed the pedal to the metal to feel my body resonate to them big long pipes. Wow!!! Anybody know about touch sensitivity on pipe organs? Anyway the guys that design our keyboards really are sharp. What brains, all going in the same direction. Making things do what they did. Even keeping the old hammond draw bar organ keys doing what they always did. Make a noise. And I must say, a very pleasing noise to my ears. Brings back memories of many, many hours of blissful exuberance gliding around the roller rink dancing to the strains of its beautiful music. Now? Creaky joints! And the foot doing what the foot was used to doing. Getting me to where I wanted to arrive. How did Hammond think? Let’s give em a pedal to arrive at the expression they want to give to their music. Good idea! Now what should we call it? Expression pedal? Swell pedal? Good thinking. Expression pedal it is. Oh yes, the beginning of electric organs. Technics kept the faith. Kept the hammond draw bar organ the way the hammond draw bar organ was, and keep the electronic organs of post hammond vintage in their genre. Either use dynamics of expression with the fingers that make the music or delegate it to the foot. By default our boards are set to draw bar expression by foot and all others by touch. The latter can be changed but the former cannot. I wish it could. Maybe someday. Anyway Walt, as far as I have l determined so far, only draw bars are non touch sensitive on the whole keyboard by default. Hay Walt, I know your not a frustrated old organ player or that the pedal is not totally a piece of junk. Well, maybe old like me, but not frustrated. Walt, I only did a bit of exaggeration to make a point and stimulate ideas. Peace? I know you use the keyboard with auto backing most of the time as most of us do. That is why we bought an arranger keyboard in the first place. We all have our own way of using our melody makers and that is the way it should be. The first word in my thread was ‘expression’. Expression or dynamics. Expression or dynamics to the music we make. One way or another, or restated, how do you impart feeling or soul or life to your playing, the dynamics, so to speak. With foot or with fingers. Listening to all those 20 for 1 songs of the past months brought to my attention a few things to be noted. After all, the reason we are here is to squeeze out all the pleasure we can get out of our boards. One way is to know how to use them, to explore all the features, the nuts and bolts of the thing as some would say. Another source for extending our pleasure is in the sensitivity of the board itself. If I may remark on those 20 for 1 disks a few things got my attention and to me were quite surprising. The first was the amount and kind of rhythm styles used that were not native to the keyboard. That subject in itself deserves to be discussed and could be good for at least a months discussion on the forum. Another thing that surprised me was the proficiency of the mechanics' of playing. Many good technicians out there. Of course as in any endeavor, a few outstanding ones. However one noticeable observation I would like to express at this time is the subject at hand, the subject of this thread, ‘Expression’. Yes expression, dynamics, heart, feeling, soul, the ingredients that make you dance, tap your foot, triggers a tear or makes it swing. I say all this not to be negative but as a means of awareness ending in more enjoyment of our endeavors and of the people hearing them. Are we using our foot or our fingers to this end is the question. The means at our disposal. Does one or the other lend themselves better to this end? I would venture to say there are a great number of players out there that has never even given this a thought or even thought it of any value. Organ and keyboard clubs, player friends and now 20 for 1 disks all give credence to this observation. A profitable lesson that stuck with me since high school was this. Have a good tone, an awareness of what's going on around you, and project a sensitivity and emotion in your playing you will be successful as a performer giving much satisfaction to all. As a kid I had no great technical ability but had these simple things under control. Good tone on my sax, an awareness of the whole band and could express the mood and feelings of the song at hand in simplicity. Today we have an instrument with some of the finest sounds, play with some of the best backup rhythms and all we have to do is play the simple melody. Simple yes but it needs life, it needs expression. Give it some dynamics, some feeling. Listen to the disks, the 20 for 1 stuff.

Frank Benz. I like Frank. I like his approach to making music. Ever hear him play? One finger chords. Simple but beautiful. Ever read some of his posts? Let’s talk music, not so much hardware. Listen to what I did with the same thing you own. Express yourself with music and express your music. I like Frank! I like his attitude. I like the way he puts sounds together and expresses them. I like how he takes rhythms, combines them with sound cocktails and lays out his soul with music. Just a simple play for fun type of guy like us. Where are you Frank? Give us some of your thoughts on this.

Ad, your right. A hammond without a swell pedal would be total dullsville. Boring to say the least. On the other hand I do know some people who use the pedal for everything. As I have noted above our boards are not touch sensitive on hammond draw bars, but are on all of the other organs and voicings. What do you think about the other electronic and pipe organ voices? Do you use them in the default mode or do you turn off the sensitivity? Why do you think only hammond draw bars have no sensitivity while all the others do?

Grandpa Doug

To Grandpa Doug from Great Grandpa Walt and to all the rest of the fine people out there:

I didn't mean to "stomp" on you so hard old friend. I think we have all gone through the "pump the pedal" syndrome when learning to play the organ. The only time that I use the pedal is to make overall volume adjustments from one arrangement to another, except when playing the Hammond.
As for the need on a real Hammond organ, the tones were generated by mechanical/magnetic means and there was no other way to change the volume. The closest that the Hammond came to some semblence of touch sensitivity was to mix percussive upper tones with the basic drawbar setups. The percussive tone (usually 4 ft.) died away quickly and left the basic tone sound as long as the key was pressed. On short, fast moving phrases, both sounded together, but on slower phrasing, you got the double effect of the percussion. A skillful player could get amazing variety out of this combination.
Again, pipe organs have no control over actual pipe volume. Most, except for church organs, were shuttered so that by opening and closng the shutters (remotely by the expression pedal)the sound level could be changed. Most had the pipes split into two or more chambers with individual shutters and pedals so that groups of pipe ranks, such as main and solo, ETC., could be under control.
As far as I know, the only keyboard sensitivity on a pipe organ was aftertouch, and it was used to control the "toy boxes" such as xylophone, marimba, cymbal, and snare, ETC., on theater organs.
Anyway, in the end you pay your money and take your choice.
The KN7000 is a great compromise of all of the things that have been done before, all stuffed into a little box, and the final results are only limited by the skill of the musician at the keyboard.
The keyboard is only a tool -- the trick is to learn how to use it!
Well, enough of the soapbox tonight (gosh, I'm getting to be almost as windy as Grandpa Doug, Ha Ha).
See everyone around the circuit.
Walt

I'm getting to be almost as windy as Grandpa Doug. Walt don't knock it. So far it's free.

Grandpa Doug

Hey There Grandpa: When you visited me last summer I stated, that playin my Keyboard without the expression pedal was no fun for me. I use both aftertouch and pedal, of course, and feel I have total volume control. Aftertouch does not let you fade out an ending, or give volume changes throughout the song. Some songs seem to need quite soft passages, and others require big volume embellishments, at certain places. I don't know much about music, but I do know that volume control is very important in expressing your feeling about a certain song. When I listen to a large orchestra or band, I note that volume changes are frequent and significent. My expression pedal and foot pedal are attached to my plywood board that goes between the leggs of my keyboard stand, so no problem, just pick up the pedal board and walk away. Metal hooks allow me to wind their cords, and I can't think of an easier way to keep track of and carry these attachments. I know you own one of these, but our great conversations led me to believe you have never really seriously tried to get locked in on what it can do for your playing, besides giving your right foot a great resting place. Good thread, good disscusion, and good night..........ARJ

Art, me boy. Great post. I remember our talking about the pedal. In fact I promised you I would give the old pedal a second chance for a spot in my life. I did and sent it into retirement once again. Commenting on your remarks Quote: “I use both after touch and pedal, of course, and feel I have total volume control. After touch does not let you fade out an ending, or give volume changes throughout the song”. But Art, you know there are always to ways to skin a cat. I don’t use the pedal and I just push that little button just above the fill in buttons called fade in and fade out. They can be set to do the job in one up to umpteen measures much smother than can be done with the foot. Did you ever sneeze while fading out with the foot? Thunder, pure thunder that will fade the people back to reality in a hurry. That little button, nice and smooth and professional and fully under control. Under our fingers are four variation buttons. Number one, subdued band up to number four, a band swinging their little harts out. Not enough for you? Use the first four pads to supplement the four variations. Four times four equal sixteen shades of variation and volume. If one gets really greedy use the sound arranger which will multiply the whole mess again. Don’t forget those two little fill buttons. They give a nice smooth transition to the whole process. Just like the pro’s do. I see you feel after touch and pedal gives you complete volume control. Everybody has their favorite way of doing things and that’s great. Just remember, there are more than one way to do things. Even so, one could be better and easier than the other. I see you did not mention touch sensitivity of the keyboard in the context with controlling the volume of your playing. This feature of our boards has nothing to do with after touch or the foot controller for volume. This feature can be set to give very little volume change (0) to a very great range of volume change (10) via the touch of our fingers on every black and white key on the whole board. Top to bottom. This method of volume control in conjunction with the before mentioned control of the accompaniments or band will separate the men from the boys, so to speak. Of course this is the focus of this thread. From what I hear I have come to the conclusion a lot of keyboard players don’t understand fully the difference between keyboard touch control, after touch, expression or swell pedal control and the like. Some may have never even known of their existence. Please, it is not my intention to criticize any one’s method of approaching this end but to suggest alternatives that might heighten their knowledge of their instruments and might contribute to more enjoyment of them. Art, I guess people know how we do things and how we differ in our approach to the same end. Beautiful music! As old blue eyes Frankie would sing, My Way, let’s hear from others about their way and what they think of our way. This is interesting and can only help our musical enjoyment. So fellows let’s put to words your ways and the buttons you push to get to where you want to go. Ruthie already told me what she thinks about my ways and I know the buttons she pushes to get me to where she wants to go.

Grandpa Doug

G/P Doug: All your points are well taken and well explained. I really do use all the methods you have pointed out and if I could play as well and easy as you do, I would likely use them even more. The five or so features you allude to, require great use of the hands (both)while you are playing. A beginner like me is so intent on the written notes, that I cannot allow much eye scanning of the board, to find the feature I want to use. When I use fade-out there is to much delay, and the delay time cannot be varied. (without resetting this feature) Also the fade-out blinks for several measures after the last note, which requires waiting before setting the next arrangement. With the pedal, a fade-in or out, can be long or short, fast or slow, loud or soft, and the next song can begin at once. An Organ without an expression pedal, will never sound like and organ traditionally does, so really this is just another tool to use to embellish and simplify ones playing. In conclusion, I say " whatever your using G/P Doug, and whatever your method of playing is, G/P Doug, DON'T CHANGE A THING....
Because, after spending three days with you, there is little left for you to do, to significantly improve your beautiful keyboard playing. You taught me so much during your visit to my home, that you just know I will endevor to work on and prefect all your suggestions in this inlightening thread. Best wishes always---------ARJ

Hi gents, I´d like to comment on the way you use this forum. For my understanding it is a forum to discuss problems, exchange tips or ideas etc. But if I reads such long "remarks" (are they really still remarks ???), I really have to aks myself, if this is of help to somebody. Hey, using a pedal or whatever is still a matter of "taste" (as we say in Germany - don´t know the expression in english) - if you like it, use it - if not, then don´t use it. But please keep this forum free of such discussions - if you need that, then write emails. Please. Thanks. Kind regards, Joerg (who is just 38 and uses an expression pedal because he prefers using it...it´s as simple as that ;-)).

I,for one,feel compelled to disagree.I like the friendly atmosphere generated by real helpful information embellished with personal quips. Comradere is part of belonging to and participating in a group.
It is as simple as that.

Bernie

Joergi64,
Appreciate your view, but since it pertains to what most of us are interested in...........playing the keyboard........why not just skip those threads and only read the ones you like.

cheers,

Fran in Florida

I find that I learn so much from these conversations between musicians with such knowkedge of their instrument. Without these, the forum would be very sterile. A bit of humour in this dark world doesn't go amiss either.Just my humble opinion. Jean.

P.S. Love to Doug and Ruthie.

I believe that this thread started in response to a question that I asked. And of course I got a philosophical and rather long amswer from my good friend Grandpa Doug. After Doug and I went a few rounds, others joined in the fun and things went on from there.
Besides the fun and the ribbing, there has been a lot of information and suggestions exchanged between members, and of course their viewpoints. All with the end result that I hope all of us have learned something a little new from the discourse.
Sometimes more can be learned from conversation than from a straight and sanitized technical discussion. From my point of view, both are necessary and both valuable.
I find that the varied subject matter and the various ways that it is presented make for interest and anticipation of what might come next.
Let's not change anything -- I'm having too good of a time.
Regards to all,
Walt (in New Mexico)

Walt (in New Mexico)[/B][/QUOTE]

Excellent Point Walt. Couldn't have said it better.
Tony

I am amazed to see a junior member with only 6 prior posts come into this forum and start telling the members with hundreds of posts and several years of membership how to run it and what is or is not acceptable.
joergi64, we now have your email address and in the event it becomes necessary to seek your advice on how to operate this forum for the good of the order, I hope we can feel free to seek your advice. Until then, know you are welcome here but just don't rock the keyboard.
PS: There is a Technics forum on Yahoo also.



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BEBOP
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