Hey folks we have a serious issue going on here. I would like to know your thoughts. I know I have been a silly joker ltely, but this is a serious issue. Many could be killed over this. As of currently Saddam has challenged Bush to a debate. I think this is an excellent idea. The american people will have a opportunity to hear the other side's opinion. I think he is serious but they say he is not. I think there should be an opportunity for Saddam to debate. What are your thoughts of that and the entire fiasco of all this heat and possible war?

Unless they're debating the sound of real analog synths vs. VA's, I don't think this thread can end well.

If it does happen it will be interesting .

This thread has all the ear marks of a really bad one.....

Peresonally I think Bush and Saddam should meet in the ring in a no holds barred. Last man standing wins.

Saddam's people actually suggested that.

It's a great idea, but it'll never happen.

Bush can barely string two sentences together and all he's interested in is robbing Iraq of its oil- not intellectual debate.

I think Bush is a dangerous man...and daddy's pulling his strings.
I was on Long Island in '69 and lost a very good friend in Vietnam. The world doesn't need this kind of chaos. I think George Dubya should read a little of Nostrodomus' writings.

I think you guys are on the right track. When Bush strikes 2nd, we can blame him for not doing anything to stop it before it happens. When he strikes first, we can blame him for provoking a war. Good job everyone!

Posts like this really inspire me to make music....................NOT!

Thanks.

It inspires me to fart onto my microphone, which is bad because then I get chunks of ass-poo all over the microphone and in the grating and I have to wash my microphone but I always leave it plugged in and electrocute myself and fall down and pee my pants. And then I found five dollars.

Thanks a lot, Morph.

Well, I think you're in luck Cloakboy cos I'm sure there's a thread somewhere in the archives that gives advice to anyone who wants to rid their microphones of nasty odours!

FAEbGBD, the only people who do that are reactionary idiots.

...and the flames begin.

I was going to keep out of this but, in the end, I can not;

I personally will never forget 9/11. Terrorism has become over the past 20 years a serious threat to world peace. It looks to me we have threats on two fronts now. N. Korea and Irag. Saddam is a mad man. There have been several Iragis who have escaped the country to tell about the great oppresion Saddam is laying on his people. There are many other Middle-Eastern leaders in the world who agree Saddam is bad for peace in the region. Look what he did to Kuwait in the late 80's and 90's. Then he blew up all those oil wells on his way out. C'mon people. I know many of you don't like the president. That's ok. I can handle that. I personally like him. I do not want to see another 9/11. I will NEVER forget. While I wasn't close friends with any of the lost in 9/11 I did know several people. I can't tell you how hard I cried at the sight of the towers colapsing. I believe Saddam is working with Osama. That both are bent on destructing the US. or "the great satan" as they put it. I think the N. Korean leader is onlt taking advantage of the tough position our country is in.

I served the country from 80-83. I was completely ready to die for the freedom of those 400 some odd hostages in Iran back in 80. I wasn't in Vietnam. And I certainly do not like the way Vietnam was handled nor the way "our country" treated the returning Vets. It's a disgrace what happened back then. But I do not think we are handling Irag as we did Vietnam. Things are different now as far as warfare goes. I'm backing Bush. I won't forget 9/11. Besides there are millions of Iragis who are right now oppressed by this madman. People's children get their eyes plucked out of their heads infrom of their families if they do not practically worship Saddam. Every household most display a picture of Saddam.

Shall we have a law where everyone of us must display a picture of Mr. Bush?

I am not a fighting man. But we should be defenders of the innocent, the widows, and the fatherless.... All of which are being created everyday in Irag by a madman.

If we can end this peacefully, I'd be so relieved. But the UN set mandates. and they've all be broken... Now what? If the UN does nothing about it, they are useless. We would send a message to any would be madman dictator that they can get away with murder.

Bob
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^^^^There are many points where you're wrong. I find it amusing that the type of people who support Bush always have this oversimplified view of the world.

But one thing I want to point out specifically is that Iraq is not a threat to us, Al Qaeda is. Furthermore, Iraq is a secular state, whereas Al Qaeda is a fundamentalist religious organization. There is no known link between the two, and lumping them together is just Bush's way of distracting people away from the failed war on "terrism."

Now I won't argue that Saddam is bad for the Iraqi people, but George H.W. Bush is the one that left him in power. His administration promised a group of rebels U.S. support after the Gulf War to topple Hussein. However, when the Gulf War did end, he renigged that offer, and Hussein slaughtered these people, who were damn near defenseless without the US weapons and financial support that they were promised.

I'm going on longer than I meant to, but one last thing I want to point out, Hussein and Bin Laden are both monsters of the US's, specifically the Republican's, making. All the chemical weapons you're afraid of Hussein having were given to him by the Reagan Administartion during the Iran/Iraq war. Bin Laden was trained by our CIA to fight against the Soviet Union in Afghanistan during the Reagan Administartion. GW Bush could've had Hussein toppled from within, but didn't, letting him linger until we are in the situation we are now in today.

"Fool me once..eh shame on you?"

In a hundred years, Bush will be remembered as one of the joke presidents, just like Reagan. Reagan already started a war on terrorism in his day. Then he went ahead and started the Contras, while the head of CIA, Bush Sr. was busy training Bin Ladin and Co. Or something

-tek

It doen't matter which administration did what . The Republicans did this , the Democrats did that . We keep flipping around between the two and EACH of them as are equally as useless as the other . Alot of people say that this is all about oil , and for the most part , it's true .
The best way to end this is to get away from oil and leave those countries as they are , festering third world shitholes .

Electric cars have been made and studied since the 1920s . There is absolutely NO excuse as to why these cars are not ALREADY perfected and in FULL use . You vote republican and they do nothing , you vote democrat and they do nothing . They each take money from the huge oil companies to keep those cars on the road .

One of the things this country is great at is planned obsolesence . If none of you saw this coming 20 or more years ago , you are bigger fools than I take you for .

This is gonna end badly , those that were stupid enough to vote for Bush are gonna regret it . Then perhaps we can flip again and the democrat morons will be voted in and we can watch something else get screwed up .

The best way to hurt these people is finacially . Reduce how much you spend on gas , stop buying those SUV's for that fat ass wife of yours and buy something that is a hybrid or really good on gas .

This country is a nation of users , we will go to war with Iraq , we will take there oil , and we may even take the oil from the rest of the area .

Does it really matter to any of you , how may of you or you're friends bought that big SUV so you're fat ass wife can go to the mall ? It's all about looking good right ? Nothing you or I do could possibly matter to the rest of the world right ? We are going to war for you !

I think it's time to wipe.........3 squares PLEASE!

While I'm anti-Republican, I am by no means pro-Democrat. However, when it comes to the issue of the Middle East, Republican administrations have made things worse, while Democratic ones only havne't made them any better. (Even though some pro-Democrat people will argue that Clinton made the most progress between Israel and Palestine, although personally I think that had more to do with the Israeli administration at the time than Clinton).

The main theme is that we are in need of some very big changes . Some of these changes will put career politicians out of office , and make some very large companies go out of business . So be it . You and I and the rest of the people here are the ones that can make the change happen . It all starts with you and you're spending , then voting . Our government needs to have the people kick it where it hurts .

Then , maybe in the future there will not be wars over worthless land and oil .

The only person on this thread who I take issue with so far is RG.

RG- this is not intended to be a personal attack on you, but I strongly disagree with you.

This is no proven link between Alkaeda and Iraq. Despite the attentions of the UN and indeed the world, not one single Alkaeda cell has been uncovered in Iraq yet.

And as for 9/11? There is no evidence at all that Saddam had anything to do with that. I've even seen an interview (I think it was in the recent Tony Benn interview) where Saddam outright condemned the 9/11 attacks.

So far we have found Alkaeda operatives in the UK, Germany and even in the States. But NOT in Iraq.

The fact of the matter is that there is more reason for invading the UK than Iraq- if your main critereon is "are Alkaeda terrorists proven to be hiding in that country?"

RG (and indeed all the pro war Americans!)- I respect your right to support George Bush. I even respect your right to support going to war. But please PLEASE P.L.E.A.S.E. stop trying to con the rest of the world into believing that there's some kind of proven link between Saddam and 9/11. There simply is not.

The person who I believe wants this war more than anyone in this entire forum is Ossama Bin Ladden. Why? Because, if the US and the UK invade Iraq, then the support for Bin Ladden will grow more than we dare imagine! A political commentator on CNN recently said that this war will create a thousand Bin Laddens. I tend to agree.

And let me end on one final note. Just because a person is against invading Iraq does NOT mean that he has forgot about 9/11.

Equalizer,

No offense taken. Clean debates are healthy. It's one of the freedoms our fore-fathers fought for. I've been thinking...

I didn't mean to imply that anyone not in favor of a war with Irag had forgotten 9/11. So I apologize if anyone had taken my post that way. I guess I am just still a bitter over 9/11. I don't want to try to convince anyone, but I think that Saddam and Osam share the same agenda in regards to the US. aybe they are not in direct partnership. I do believe that if Saddam had the chance he'd do something terrible to the US, that he wouldn't hesitate. I really just want the guy rendered safe. I think he's a threat. Maybe my thinking is wrong and maybe even if I'm right, that, that in itself does not justify a war. I do believe the guy has weapons of mass destruction and has played every card at his disposal to dance around the UN resolutions to disarm. I agree there's been no effidence of Saddam having to do with 9/11, but I believe one day, that will surface. I guess until then I'll have to cool off a little. I agree with you that a war with Irag would benefit Osam. Wouldn't he just love that. It would give the islamic fundamentalists more reason to hate the US.
I think Saddam and Osam both would love to hurt the US and I really don't want to see some small nuclear device exploded in one of our seas ports or airports or anywhere for that matter. So I lean heavily toward disarming Saddam. And he seems to play every game he cane to keep us from finding his weapons.

I do wish for peace in the world. While war may not be the answer, I do think there are times when one has to stand up for what they believe, otherwise they may fall for anything.

RW

If Saddam had the means, he would gladly destroy the U.S., yes. However, he doesn't. Invading Iraq would result only in civilian casualties and Saddam himself would most likely get away.

The sad thing is, we could've helped turn his own people against him after the Gulf War. He was vulnerable then. But after 10 years of sanctions, all we've done is strengthen their support of him because he is all they have. There was an interesting comparison of living in Iraq versus other middle eastern countries, and, sadly, Iraq has better conditions/more freedom (specifically in regards to women) as long as you stay out of Saddam's/the Baath Party's way. I'm not saying it's all sunshine and happiness living there, nor am I saying innocent people don't find themselves on his bad side, they do. It's a shithole and I'd never want to live under conditions like that, nor do I think anyone else should.

In summary, I'm saying that we ****ed up with Iraq/Hussein and that any attempt to topple Hussein would only result in people getting caught in between dying. Al Qaeda does not support Iraq due to its secular status. However, invading Iraq might be the thing that causes Iraq and Bin Laden to put aside their differences and join forces. Also, I do not believe Hussein as any weapons of mass destruction at this point, because not only have we not given him any, but over the past 10 years we've bombed anything that resembled a possible weapons plant.

I think we as a country have a lot to worry about and a lot of places threatening us, but Iraq is really the least of our worries compared to Al Qaeda and North Korea. Our military and our resources (i.e. money) are limited, even if that limit is higher than most of our enemies, but it seems just plain unstrategic and wasteful to attack Iraq at this point when we may have to gear up for war with North Korea in addition to covert operations to contain Al Qaeda. Right now, what we really need to do is make peace with other Middle Eastern countries and China. Too bad Bush had to classify Iran as "evil," because before he said that, the democratically elected Iranian reform party was making great strides in US/Iran relations. Unfortuneatly, due to his ignorant choice of words, he has turned the Iranian people against us, and since it is a democracy, no politician there can appear in anyway pro-U.S. This phenomen has happened in a lot of countries since Bush became president, even European allies. Politicians cannot be blatantly pro-US in a lot of places because our current administration has alienated/upset the people of other democratic countries with its "screw you, we'll do what we want" attitude. And no, I'm not talking about just France.

Cloakboy is right.

The funny thing is, now that I come to think of it... I don't think RG and myself are that different after all. I think we ultimately share the same aspirations- we are both interested in self preservation as well as a peaceful world. It's just how we achieve these things that's the issue of debate. Respect to you RG!

The world is going through a major turning point right now. There is NO WAY that any rational person could seriously predict that things will remain as they are for the next 30 years. Look at how quickly the Soviet Union went from being a major super power to being what it is today!

I think something big is going to happen.

I'm about to take my pants off, stand back folks!

I actually logged on to delete my last post, but unfortunately it looks like it's been read (by a dead funny guy) so I guess I might as well keep it up.

I think in my last post I came across like some kind of doom and gloom religious fanatic or something.

On the contrary, I'm an eternal optimist when it comes to the long term picture.

When I say "something big is going to happen", I don't predict the end of the world or anything. But I do predict a new European superpower. I also predict that China is going to evolve into something of a monster (just look at their economic growth rates over the last 20 years). I can also see the middle East countries coming together and making a stand against the West who have been robbing them of their resources for so long.

Being a European, I have also observed a *massive* increase in anti-American sentiments over the past 5 years or so. People here used to associate America with nice cars, film stars and such like. But now a days the very word America is more strongly associated with guns, pollution, greed, corruption and fat people! You have a president who is desperate to go to war to fight for this magical thing called democracy. At the same time it's doubtful whether his party even got more votes than the opposition in the first place!

People in America have a *completely* different value system from people in Europe. I can't stress that enough! For example, where I live education, clean living (staying away from drugs) and honesty are probably the three main things by which people are judged. However, from my observations, the single most important thing for a person to have in America is a job. As far as I can make out, in America if someone doesn't have a job, they are not worth a shit.

I'm not saying that's right or wrong, I'm just saying that the differences are there.

I also believe that if there's one thing history has taught us, it's that you can't hold back technology. It's only a matter of time before a nuke gets in the hands of a madman. But like I say, I don't think that a few nukes flying will spell the end for mankind.

I do predict some big changes. But in the long run I think most of these changes will be good changes.

Bush won't do it. Why debate about how stupid they are?

October 7, 2002 8:02PM Bush spoke to the world from Cincinnati Museum Center - Cincinnati Union Terminal
Cincinnati, Ohio
If you missed it, Here is that half hour speech: http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021007-8.html
It answers all of the questions raised so far I think.