The only person on this thread who I take issue with so far is RG.

RG- this is not intended to be a personal attack on you, but I strongly disagree with you.

This is no proven link between Alkaeda and Iraq. Despite the attentions of the UN and indeed the world, not one single Alkaeda cell has been uncovered in Iraq yet.

And as for 9/11? There is no evidence at all that Saddam had anything to do with that. I've even seen an interview (I think it was in the recent Tony Benn interview) where Saddam outright condemned the 9/11 attacks.

So far we have found Alkaeda operatives in the UK, Germany and even in the States. But NOT in Iraq.

The fact of the matter is that there is more reason for invading the UK than Iraq- if your main critereon is "are Alkaeda terrorists proven to be hiding in that country?"

RG (and indeed all the pro war Americans!)- I respect your right to support George Bush. I even respect your right to support going to war. But please PLEASE P.L.E.A.S.E. stop trying to con the rest of the world into believing that there's some kind of proven link between Saddam and 9/11. There simply is not.

The person who I believe wants this war more than anyone in this entire forum is Ossama Bin Ladden. Why? Because, if the US and the UK invade Iraq, then the support for Bin Ladden will grow more than we dare imagine! A political commentator on CNN recently said that this war will create a thousand Bin Laddens. I tend to agree.

And let me end on one final note. Just because a person is against invading Iraq does NOT mean that he has forgot about 9/11.

Equalizer,

No offense taken. Clean debates are healthy. It's one of the freedoms our fore-fathers fought for. I've been thinking...

I didn't mean to imply that anyone not in favor of a war with Irag had forgotten 9/11. So I apologize if anyone had taken my post that way. I guess I am just still a bitter over 9/11. I don't want to try to convince anyone, but I think that Saddam and Osam share the same agenda in regards to the US. aybe they are not in direct partnership. I do believe that if Saddam had the chance he'd do something terrible to the US, that he wouldn't hesitate. I really just want the guy rendered safe. I think he's a threat. Maybe my thinking is wrong and maybe even if I'm right, that, that in itself does not justify a war. I do believe the guy has weapons of mass destruction and has played every card at his disposal to dance around the UN resolutions to disarm. I agree there's been no effidence of Saddam having to do with 9/11, but I believe one day, that will surface. I guess until then I'll have to cool off a little. I agree with you that a war with Irag would benefit Osam. Wouldn't he just love that. It would give the islamic fundamentalists more reason to hate the US.
I think Saddam and Osam both would love to hurt the US and I really don't want to see some small nuclear device exploded in one of our seas ports or airports or anywhere for that matter. So I lean heavily toward disarming Saddam. And he seems to play every game he cane to keep us from finding his weapons.

I do wish for peace in the world. While war may not be the answer, I do think there are times when one has to stand up for what they believe, otherwise they may fall for anything.

RW

If Saddam had the means, he would gladly destroy the U.S., yes. However, he doesn't. Invading Iraq would result only in civilian casualties and Saddam himself would most likely get away.

The sad thing is, we could've helped turn his own people against him after the Gulf War. He was vulnerable then. But after 10 years of sanctions, all we've done is strengthen their support of him because he is all they have. There was an interesting comparison of living in Iraq versus other middle eastern countries, and, sadly, Iraq has better conditions/more freedom (specifically in regards to women) as long as you stay out of Saddam's/the Baath Party's way. I'm not saying it's all sunshine and happiness living there, nor am I saying innocent people don't find themselves on his bad side, they do. It's a shithole and I'd never want to live under conditions like that, nor do I think anyone else should.

In summary, I'm saying that we ****ed up with Iraq/Hussein and that any attempt to topple Hussein would only result in people getting caught in between dying. Al Qaeda does not support Iraq due to its secular status. However, invading Iraq might be the thing that causes Iraq and Bin Laden to put aside their differences and join forces. Also, I do not believe Hussein as any weapons of mass destruction at this point, because not only have we not given him any, but over the past 10 years we've bombed anything that resembled a possible weapons plant.

I think we as a country have a lot to worry about and a lot of places threatening us, but Iraq is really the least of our worries compared to Al Qaeda and North Korea. Our military and our resources (i.e. money) are limited, even if that limit is higher than most of our enemies, but it seems just plain unstrategic and wasteful to attack Iraq at this point when we may have to gear up for war with North Korea in addition to covert operations to contain Al Qaeda. Right now, what we really need to do is make peace with other Middle Eastern countries and China. Too bad Bush had to classify Iran as "evil," because before he said that, the democratically elected Iranian reform party was making great strides in US/Iran relations. Unfortuneatly, due to his ignorant choice of words, he has turned the Iranian people against us, and since it is a democracy, no politician there can appear in anyway pro-U.S. This phenomen has happened in a lot of countries since Bush became president, even European allies. Politicians cannot be blatantly pro-US in a lot of places because our current administration has alienated/upset the people of other democratic countries with its "screw you, we'll do what we want" attitude. And no, I'm not talking about just France.

Cloakboy is right.

The funny thing is, now that I come to think of it... I don't think RG and myself are that different after all. I think we ultimately share the same aspirations- we are both interested in self preservation as well as a peaceful world. It's just how we achieve these things that's the issue of debate. Respect to you RG!

The world is going through a major turning point right now. There is NO WAY that any rational person could seriously predict that things will remain as they are for the next 30 years. Look at how quickly the Soviet Union went from being a major super power to being what it is today!

I think something big is going to happen.

I'm about to take my pants off, stand back folks!

I actually logged on to delete my last post, but unfortunately it looks like it's been read (by a dead funny guy) so I guess I might as well keep it up.

I think in my last post I came across like some kind of doom and gloom religious fanatic or something.

On the contrary, I'm an eternal optimist when it comes to the long term picture.

When I say "something big is going to happen", I don't predict the end of the world or anything. But I do predict a new European superpower. I also predict that China is going to evolve into something of a monster (just look at their economic growth rates over the last 20 years). I can also see the middle East countries coming together and making a stand against the West who have been robbing them of their resources for so long.

Being a European, I have also observed a *massive* increase in anti-American sentiments over the past 5 years or so. People here used to associate America with nice cars, film stars and such like. But now a days the very word America is more strongly associated with guns, pollution, greed, corruption and fat people! You have a president who is desperate to go to war to fight for this magical thing called democracy. At the same time it's doubtful whether his party even got more votes than the opposition in the first place!

People in America have a *completely* different value system from people in Europe. I can't stress that enough! For example, where I live education, clean living (staying away from drugs) and honesty are probably the three main things by which people are judged. However, from my observations, the single most important thing for a person to have in America is a job. As far as I can make out, in America if someone doesn't have a job, they are not worth a shit.

I'm not saying that's right or wrong, I'm just saying that the differences are there.

I also believe that if there's one thing history has taught us, it's that you can't hold back technology. It's only a matter of time before a nuke gets in the hands of a madman. But like I say, I don't think that a few nukes flying will spell the end for mankind.

I do predict some big changes. But in the long run I think most of these changes will be good changes.

Bush won't do it. Why debate about how stupid they are?

October 7, 2002 8:02PM Bush spoke to the world from Cincinnati Museum Center - Cincinnati Union Terminal
Cincinnati, Ohio
If you missed it, Here is that half hour speech: http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021007-8.html
It answers all of the questions raised so far I think.