I wonder if I am out of touch with reality?
My wife’s, Saturn 2000 LW1 station wagon, didn't run for 4 days over Christmas, and when started up the engine was stumbling, seeming to run on 3 of the 4 cylinders off and on. I managed to drive it down to the dealer and told them it probably needed a spark plug or a plug wire.
I got it back 4 hours later with 4 new plugs and a bill for 368.81. 4 plugs cost 54.40, troubleshooting 139.00, and install the plugs 170.92, plus tax.
Is this a normal price for this kind of problem. I wonder if at my age I have lost touch with repair costs, even though I have owned two shops in my lifetime?
I will appreciate any feedbacks so I can upgrade my knowledge curve. This vehicle is now out of warranty so I may need to quit taking it to the dealer and find me an independent shop?
Kindly advise facts or opinions and let me know which are which. Thanks for your help.
Happy New Year to All.
Bebop

Whew. New cars are all computer controlled these days, and no one I know can diagnose engine problems without a big deal. Spark plugs are supposed to last about 100,000 miles on these newer cars. How many miles did your car have on it?

I took my 2000 Venture to the dealer last year and they wanted $1100. to replace the fuel pump, WHICH I HAD JUST REPLACED for $400. at an independent shop. Of course the dealership charged me for diagnosis etc, so I was out a hundred or so anyway. Needless to say I won't be going back there. In fact, anything I buy in the future will most likely say Toyota or Honda on it.
I'm as patriotic as the next guy, but these days the Japanese are making things here, and the Americans are getting things from overseas anyway. My experience over MANY years is that the Japanese vehicles last longer, run better, get better mileage and need fewer repairs.
General Motors makes vehicles right here in Shreveport, but I'm really down on them right now. I love my Venture, except it has gone through 3 fuel pumps, 2 computers, wiring harness and an ignition module in the past two years, and it still is having the same problem.
The problem is that all the warning lights come on, the gas gauge shows empty and it starts to stall. This only happens after the engine is hot, and only in warm weather. I pity the person who buys it after I trade it in.
I must trade it in, because I couldn't in good conscience sell it to an individual.
My sights are set on Scion XB!
Sorry for the rant, but you hit a NERVE, Bebop!
DonM

Hey Bebop,

Found a factory recall for the Saturn L series...has to do with the ignition system.

Click Here

2000 SATURN L-SERIES ELECTRICAL SYSTEM:IGNITION:MODULE
Recall Date: 06/23/2003

Summary:
ON CERTAIN PASSENGER VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH 2.2L L4 (L61) ENGINES, A FAILURE OF THE IGNITION CONTROL MODULE MAY CAUSE DETERIORATION IN IDLE QUALITY, REDUCTION IN OVERALL ENGINE POWER, AND THE VEHICLE MAY BE HARD TO START. CONTINUED OPERATION OF THE VEHICLE AFTER SUCH AN IGNITION MODULE FAILURE WILL RESULT IN THE ??SERVICE ENGINE SOON?? LIGHT FLASHING, AND MAY LEAD TO SECONDARY FAILURES OF THE CATALYTIC CONVERTER, OXYGEN SENSOR, AND EXHAUST RESONATOR.

Consequence:
FAILURE OF THE RESONATOR WILL CAUSE INCREASED EXHAUST NOISE. PROLONGED OPERATION OF THE VEHICLE FOLLOWING A RESONATOR FAILURE MAY LEAD TO A FIRE.

Remedy:
DEALERS WILL (1) REPLACE THE IGNITION CONTROL MODULE, (2) REPLACE THE IGNITION CONTROL MODULE AND SPARK PLUGS, OR (3) REPLACE THE IGNITION CONTROL MODULE, SPARK PLUGS, AND UPDATE THE POWERTRAIN CONTROL MODULE CALIBRATION. OWNER NOTIFICATION BEGAN ON AUGUST 4, 2003. OWNERS SHOULD CONTACT SATURN AT 1-800-553-6000 , PROMPT 3.

Potential Units Affected: 239993

Notes: SATURN L-SERIES 03033/03-C-06

Not sure if you qualify but it's worth checking out (if it applies to your car).

Good luck and Happy New Year!

-mike

That is a lot of money. Some new cars require the engine mounts to be removed to replace the plugs. I have a 95 Riveria I bought platinum plugs for............and I can't even put them in myself unless I want to devote an entire weekend to them. It'll wait................-charley

Dave,
that car has 43,000 miles.
A bad plug or plug wire can be confirmed with a screw driver by shorting out the plug and then swapping it with an adjacent cylinder. Takes about 10 minutes or less.

Don, I hear your pain and it reflects mine.
every time I take one of my cars in for service they stongly reccomend about 2500.00 worth of BS preventative maintainence they call it like change all the hoses, changes all the belts, change all the brake oil, etc. I had the dealer appraise this car while there and they said low of 2500. This is a car that cost me over 20,000 6 years ago. Some how all these numbers don't computer

Mike,
Saturn Corp. sez there are no open recalls or campaigns on this vehicle number's VIN.

Charley,
It is about a half hour job to swap a set of 4 plugs in this engine. Remove a plate on top and there are the sparkplugs and wires. My neighbor replaced both plugs and wires for parts of 80.00 and his labor of an hour.

I have received a lot of replies from the Motorhome tow car forum as this saturn is the toad that is towed by my motorhome and we have special forums at IRV.COM for anything and everything about motorhomes and the toads that are towed.
I had a reply from a GM Technician that stated the charges seemed way high to him based on the amount of time it takes to do that work.
Another wrote me that when he complained about the price gouging at a California Dealer to the Saturn 800 number, they sent him a $100.00 Chit to be used at any Saturn dealer anywhere. This sez to me they are agreeing that Calif Dealers are gouging their customers.
Bebop

Another day, another problem. Temp guage was showing hot, so I figured thermostat. NOOO. Water pump, intake gasket, serpentine belt, plugs and wires. Even the air filter and a turn signal bulb. Another thousand or so.
Guess I'm stuck with it now.
DonM

Haven't had good luck with American made vehicles over the years. The Mazdas, Toyotas Subaru's and Nissans have been better.

Although we really love our little Sion XB, and are buying a 2nd one for a company delivery vehicle, we have had a surprising number of little things wrong with the first one.

1. Radio that cuts off and changes stations at will (replaced).

2. Door locks that simply activate randomly. Once, at a gas station, the locks activated when I was filling up. Had to call Pop-A-Lock. Dealer says there's not much he can do until it happens again and we can get the car to them....inconvenient, at best.

I read Toyota is having volume related quality problems.

That's sad.


Russ

As you know I am not American but I have to put in a good word for American cars made since 1990. I am still driving my 1994 Chevy Camaro Z28 and it is still a great car 180,000 miles later. Maybe it is because it is designed as a high performance car that has made it so reliable for so long.

I am waiting for the new Camaros to start production again ( 2009 I think ) before I think about getting another vehicle. I just love having a muscle car with a back seat that can be folded down to create enough space to let me pack in 2 guitars, guitar amp, keyboard amp, keyboard and general accessories. It is fun to drive and practical as well. Both my wife and myself each drive a Chevy Camaro Z28. I love these cars. Don't be too quick to write off all American made cars.




[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 01-07-2007).]

Nigel, you forgot about putting your little dog in the back seat with the gear
Hey, don't misunderstand me, the Saturns are great cars. We drive two of them and tow one behind the motorhome everwhere we go. This is the first money I had to spend on them to date. BUT............the dealers.......are an entirely different subject. That problem has ended because i have now found an HONEST owner operate 4 bay shop with room for 10 cars, a mile from home. I spent over an hour Friday interviewing the owner and a couple of his top wrenches. They can do everything the dealer shop does and charges about half of their flat rates.
Nigel, the morning paper sez Camero is coming out with a new convertible shortly
Best to all,
Bill

[This message has been edited by BEBOP (edited 01-07-2007).]

Guess I'll just have to be content with my GMC. May not be much to look at...but she sure hauls equipment.


Hey Bebop....

Sometimes Andy even let's ME drive!!





[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 01-07-2007).]

Seatbelt Andy. Seatbelt!!!

Years ago we hauled a B3 around in an open bed pickup...rain or shine. It would not fit in the bed if truck was equipped with a topper.

Like Willie's guitar...it was well-worn. But, it (and the Leslie cabinet) was a B3 all the way. Not much to look at...but Ohhhh the sound.
Eddie

During the mid- late 80's when all the fuss was being made about the superior quality of Japanese cars over American, we had four GM products in our household ... I was driving an '80 Chevy S10 pickup, my wife was driving an '82 Buick Regal, our son was driving a '78 Cutlass Supreme T-Roof, and our daughter was driving an '80 Cadilac Coupe ... between the 4 cars we had well over 600,000 miles ...

My mother-in-law recently passed away, and my wife gave our nephew her 1998 Saturn, that had less than 60,000 miles on it ... still has the original tires ...

A couple of years ago we bought a used Honda Accord ... It is a real nice car, but my experience has been that it has had the same types of problems as any other make and model ...

shboom ... I just got a 2002 GMC Sonoma ... put a cap on it so I can take my gear ...
It's got the extended cab with the 'third door' so I can keep my golf clubs in there the entire season ... I'll have to post a picture ...
t.

I'm leaving now to go pick up the van, and drop off the Taurus. It has problems too, I just hope they are not on the save level as the van. The Taurus has only 30,000 miles on it and has multiple electrical problems.
DonM

Just got back, in was ONLY $1647. They didn't charge me to replace a turn signal bulb.
Anybody want to buy an entirely new 2000 Venture? Warner Bros. edition. Low miles.
Lots of room for gear. 23/29 mpg.
Please?
Anyone? Anyone?


[This message has been edited by DonM (edited 01-08-2007).]

Latest development: The van ran for about two hours then quit completely. So it's back in the shop. Now they are BOTH in the shop. HankB gave me a ride home. I'm running out of cars.
DonM

Don ... maybe it's not the CAR, but the MECHANICS ...

t.

Don,
They sure replaced a lot of parts based on the "temp guage" running hot. Temp guage is just a sign of the coolant systme needing serviced--being radiator, heater core (or heater core tube assembly), coolant overflow tank, hoses, water pump, ect.

Why they replaced the plugs, wires, and serp, is a little odd. Did you go to a dealer? Dealers are known for jacking people on repair costs (over inflated prices and repairs to items that do not require repair).

Rule of thumb is "never pay for anything you didn't authorize to have done". Many dealers will try to get you on this. You drop your car off, they say it's this problem, you pick it up, they fixed that problem then you get the surprise (added charges) fora bunch of other crap they say they had to replace. I can't tell you the number of people I konw who got royally screwed by dealers charging them for unauthorized repairs.

If your van just died again, get the fuel pump, and fuel filter checked out. Also depending on the year it could be the camshaft, or even timing belt. DId you get any "check engine lights"? Does it attempt to start at all or completely dead? Also check your alternator as well--being a 2000 model it shouldn't be dead, but given the poor quality of American Cars (IMO) these days it's not uncommon for things to fall apart after a few years.

What Year is your Taurus???? There are some known issues with the Taurus as well. Especially since the major body change of the late 90's. What probs are you Taurus having? One of my cars is a 98 Taurus, I've done a bit of work on it myself lately too. There are some common problems with this model.

Squeak

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 01-10-2007).]

Hi Squeak,
No, this isn't the dealer. They called me before doing any extra work, and they showed me all the problems. This work all needed to be done.
It's now in the hands of a mechanic who worked for GM for 7 years, and specializes in electrical problems. He told me he is very familiar with this problem and that it is in the communications between the fuse center and various modules. He said it may take a day or two to trace the actual problem, either a wire, connection or module, but he is 100% certain he can repair it. We'll see!

The Taurus is a 99. It was my mother's and was driven very little until a couple of years ago when she quit driving and I bought it. It had only 9,000 miles in four years.
Anyway, they replaced the battery and a relay and said it is fixed. I drove it yesterday evening and this morning and so far seems to be o.k. I still think there is something pulling the battery down, but haven't had time to check it yet.
Thanks for they help!
DonM

I've had the same issue with my Taurus where it seems something is drawing some extra battery power. I narrowed my problem down to crappy factory battery cables. The cable rusted and fractured. So it wasn't making a good connection on the terminal.

Keep an eye on your coolant lines on your Taurus. Especially the tube assembly on the back firewall attached to the heater core. They have been known to "burst". Happened to my wife (while she was doing 70mph on the highway).

There are also other known issues such as dome lights now going off when you shut the door, and the door ajar light staying on. Those are known and common problems with the model you have. If the car has over 60k miles on it I would suggest replacing the camshaft position sensor. That one "always" goes. The replace job isn't too bad either, and can be done at home.

Squeak, the dome light is definitely doing that.
Is there a known fix?
DonM

I havent been advised of any known fixes for it. We just switch the light on and off manually. Also don't buy factory rotors either. They're known to be "soft" and warp rather quickly. Keep an eye on your "door ajar" light too. That will sometimes not go out. There's also a plastic part on the Transmission (can't remember the part name) that has been know to cause problems.