None of Notes Norton's statements were at all divisive or hateful though. Palin has no brain, throwing Hitler's name in when commenting on Bush foreign policy. I haven't called Obama worse than communists, as Notes did about right wing radio. He castigates right wing radio for calling Obama a card carrying Communist, and then he turns around and calls them worse than the Communist threat of the 50's. He's unable to refrain from doing that which he rebukes.
I haven't twisted and mangled any Obama statements; such as Norton did with the being in Iraq for 100 years and we should go to war with Russia as soon as possible, yadda yadda. If anybody did some "unloading" just now, I'd submit it wasn't me.

So come on Chas, berate Notes Norton. Let's hear it buddy. After all, you're a fair man, right?

[This message has been edited by FAEbGBD (edited 11-07-2008).]

I try to be, but we all know that nobody is completely fair, not even the Supreme Court. First off, I'm not here to try to make someone else come off as a jerk or to present myself as some kind of sanctimonius do-gooder. I've got way too many skeletons in my own closet for that. I'm all for spirited discussions encompassing all points of view as long as they maintain at least a modicum of intellectual integrity and just not fueled by unreasonable and certainly unjustified fear and predjudice.

Let's take a look at Obama. Here's a guy who played by all the so-called 'family values' (what a load of crap) rules; educated via student loans (only recently paid off), turned down lucrative job offers to work in community service, found Jesus (his only negative, for me), married an equally accomplished woman with an equally remarkable story, after a conventional courtship (i.e. no pre-marital babies), and through will, hard work, and intellect, worked his way through the state legislature, the state senate, the U.S. senate, and now the presidency. Okay, he smoked a little weed along the way. So did Clinton, and let's not even talk about Bush's college years or McCains uh, 'active' social life. Nobody's perfect. Certainly not me, certainly not you, certainly not Obama.

But, why didn't I berate NotesNorton? Probably because I agree with most (but not all) of what he had to say, but mostly because it was, for the most part, a statement of some well-documented facts. For the record, I don't buy his 'gas price' theory, not at all. I don't believe anyone, on the right or anywhere else, has the power to manipulate international oil prices for the sole purpose of helping to elect John McCain. That's a bit of a stretch. But more importantly, I didn't detect the same kind of vitriol in his arguments; you know, the kind that shouts, "I hate the candidate, not his policies; I just USE his policies to justify my feelings".

For me, I hope that Obama's election will have far greater ramifications than just his tax policies, or social programs. I'm hoping he succeeds so that my own grandkids and the kids of their generation will, when their time comes, be judged (in EVERY corner of this country) by something other than the color of their skin, or the shape of their eyes, or the texture of their hair, or the thickness of their lips, or the.....well, you fill in the blanks.

So yes, Notes did use the magic word (Hitler), but we've gotten so used to (since this campaign) singling out single words in an entire dissertation to prove a point, that even legitimate complaints start to ring hollow, these days.

So, in conclusion, no ongoing contentious quarrel with you, Cory. We'll probably both continue to try to win points for our respective 'teams' and I will continue to admire your talent and abilities as a musician and the challenges you must have faced getting there. So let's continue to agree to disagree, but keep it on as high a level as possible when discussing politics . You're a very bright guy and I tend to like very bright guys so I know there is potential for friendship here. Gotta run. Babysitting the Grandkids, today.

chas

Yes I did use Hitler.

I compared Bush's invasion of Iraq to Hitler's invasion of Poland.

Sorry if you are offended, bu IMHO the comparison is valid.

Both Hitler and Bush invaded sovereign countries without any provocation at all.

I am ashamed that our country invaded Iraq. Like most people, I hated Saddam, but we supported worse people than him (Papa Doc and Baby Doc in Haiti). And now, we have caused the death of more people than Saddam did, making us the terrorists. I'm so embarrassed. The American people deserve better than that.

Given that Saddam was a monster, we still had no right to invade the country. Iraq did not attack us. They were not attacking one of our treaty allies.

BUSH manufactured a WMD excuse. -- it was a lie. So the person who hijacked the Christians (who worship the Prince of Peace) did the following:

1) Ignored "Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness Against Thy Neighbor" and manufactured the WMD story. And I repeat. Anybody who uses his/her brain should have known Saddam didn't have WMDs. After all, when we gave him the ultimatum to give them up or we will send the fiercest fighting force in the world into his country, if he really did have WMDs, he would have said, "Attack me and I'll nuke you." After all, at that point Saddam had nothing to lose. WMDs are best used as a deterrent. If I can figure that out, Bush's advisers certainly knew that.

2)He also ignored "Thou Shalt Not Kill" and has not only killed over 4,000 of our finest soldiers, but estimates from 100,000 to over 600,000 Iraq citizens. Mothers, Fathers, Sisters, Brothers, Sons and Daughters all of them. Not just numbers, but real people, real human beings, just like you and I. IMHO Bush is a mass murderer and should be brought to the world court and given a fair trial for war crimes.

3) Both Hitler and Bush approved the heinous act of torture and both Hitler and Bush spied on their own law-abiding citizens.

How can you NOT draw a parallel to Hitler's invasion of Poland? (which is how I used Adolph's name).

Both invaded a sovereign country without provocation and under false pretenses which resulted in the deaths of many innocent people.

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As far as gas prices go, the Republicans nuked the Anti-Trust laws in Bush's term. The same laws that broke up Standard Oil who was price gouging at the time.

Now we have:

Exxon-Mobil-Esso = Standard oil

BP (British Petroleum) - Amoco (American Oil Company - which was sold as Standard in the midwest and also swallowed up Gulf). I knew a woman who worked for a BP station and got her paycheck from Standard Oil of Ohio. Therefore BP/Amoco = Standard Oil.

Texaco - Chevron = Standard Oil. When the Standard Oil stations of the Eastern US sold gas under the Standard Sign, the pumps said Chevron on them. Later they changed the signs.

Add to that that recently all the Shell stations turned into Texaco stations and all the Texaco stations turned into Shell stations. Do you really think two supposedly independent corporations, one supposedly owned by the Dutch could actually pull that off if the weren't both the same company?

So there we go. Circumstantial evidence that Exxon, Mobil, Esso, BP, Amoco, Texaco and Shell are all now Standard Oil. That makes it very easy to manipulate fuel prices to support a candidate who proposed huge tax savings if elected.

Remember, when Bush was up for re-election 4 years ago, the gas prices went down.

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One more thing. Bush, McCain, and Palin ran on an anti-abortion ticket to get the Christian vote. As a male, I feel I have no right to have an opinion on abortion, because I cannot understand it from the woman's point of view -- that is unless the child is mine. Then it is up to the woman, myself and our priest or pastor, NOT up to a government guilty of mass-murder.

However, what I don't understand is how Bush got re-elected on that ticket and how many people voted for McCain/Palin on that ticket. After all, is that unborn fetus's life more important than >4,000 U.S. adult troops (Fathers, Mothers, Sons and Daughters) and the hundreds of thousands of Iraq people? My daughter is in the Air Force, and I'm here to tell you that her life is more important to me than all the unborn fetuses in the world.

The fact remains that Bush and the rest of the NeoCons are liars and hypocrites that have used propaganda to manipulate a very well meaning segment of our population -- and have used the goodness of those manipulated citizens to do evil deeds. IMHO Bush makes R.Nixon (another Republican) look like an amateur.

Sorry if that offends you, but it is my point of view.

I consider myself a Moderate and a Patriot. As a moderate patriot if I see our great country going the wrong way, killing innocent people, stealing from the public, lying, cheating, spying and torturing, then it is my duty to both speak out against them, and to cast my vote for the opposition party. And I did just that.

I assure you that I did so with the best interests of our country and all the citizens of that country (even those that disagree with me) as my motive.

Notes

Me too...that would have made Al Gore President in 2000, and Obama wouldn't have such a mess to clean up.



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Larry
The NEW SynthZone Map

OMG...and now he's bringing Hillary back into the mix. Heeeeeeeeeeeeeelp!
Sec of state - yikes.
(fingers crossed)

LEAVE HILLARY ALONE!!!!!!!!



chas

Fingers still crossed... Only time will tell.

Forget the fingers, take your wallet out put it between your legs and then cross them.

You might be able to hang on to a few bucks

LOL

I'm happy until the "S" work takes a hold.
(socialist)
God Bless America, and all who love and believe in us.

Hard to complain about the S word when the current administration supports these never-ending bail-outs. Welfare for the rich. That's why I call myself a conservative, not a republican. Republicans don't seem to have a clue these days.

[This message has been edited by FAEbGBD (edited 12-08-2008).]