Our first entry comes with full credit to Rory:

Originally posted by FAEbGBD:

"And, who exactly DOES have the right to be wealthy? Not church, not oil barons, not investment bankers, not lawyers, not insurance companies, not drug companies, not right wing talk radio guys. Nobody, apparently."

I have to get to a gig, but will weigh in when I return. Anyone is welcome to weigh in, of course...



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Bill in Dayton

To me, it's a question of degree. Hard work and innovation deserves reward IMO, but I believe in giving back. It's just the right thing to do morally. I don't intend to let my family do without, but don't think it's their birthright to be millionaires through inheritance.

As much as I loved him, my father-in-law, who died in February, raised the most useless, arrogant, dependent kids possible. None has been able to support themselves and are now approaching 60, waiting for will probate and the millions each they'll get.

I feel it is my right to be rewarded for my efforts. It is my choice to live modestly (I know...300 plus guitars...modest?), educate and help "jump-start" my kids lives, but help others with the rest. In fact, I could have retired years ago, but have lots of projects (charities and causes) which need all the help they can get.

Actually, I'm considering selling most of my "toys" and donating the proceeds.

That would make me feel good. The kids will get $500,000 each, which means they'll have to actually work to support themselves, and a guitar or two, if they want them.

The rest will go to my favorite causes, which I'll work to support as long as I'm able.

Russ

"Who has the right to be wealthy?" Anyone willing to work for it! If you're not willing to work, don't look for a hand-out from anyone.

If you are unable to perform a task of any kind due to a physical impairment, which is a very tiny percentage of people, then a tiny percentage of our tax dollars should be used to provide some financial assistance.

I had the privilege to know an individual who was completely paralyzed from childhood with arthritis. He was 19 when I met him and was one of my patients at Johns Hopkins Hospital. He could barely speak because the malady has frozen all his joints, including his jaw. His jaw was replaced with a prosthesis so he could eat and talk, but other than that he was immobile. His mind still functioned well, and he set up a small business that became one of the area's first answering services. He worked every day of the week, 18-hours a day and within a year began expanding the business, hiring on more individuals with similar physical impairments. He operated the business for another three years, made huge sums of money, and sold the company when his body finally began to fail to the point where he could no longer function. When he died he donated all of his money to the Arthritis Foundation. It was well over a million dollars. He worked for it, and he had every right to do anything he wished with the proceeds. I feel the same about my income as well.

Gary

Ummmmm, is this heading towards "Obama hates rich people" and/or "the current administration (code for Obama) is turning us into a socialist state"? 'Cause it sure seems to be leaning in that direction (by inference).

Here is what is ironic to me. Most of this rhetoric is coming from the religious right. You know, the same ones who swear that every single word in the Bible is true (after all, it's the word of God.......although conveniently written and interpreted by men). Doesn't the Bible say something about it being harder for a rich man to get into the Kingdom of Heaven than for a camel to get through the eye of a needle. I guess in the world of wealthy right wing conservatives, needle eyes are damn big or camels are damn small.

Personally, I think everyone should have the opportunity to secure wealth. The question (for me) is what they did to become wealthy. Did they produce a product like Bill Gates or did they make 4 billion dollars in one year by simply managing a hedge fund (and producing nothing that benefited society). There is the guy in the Midwest that owns a grocery chain (starting with nothing) and has amassed a fortune of 5 Billion dollars. He has given most of it away (in educational scholarships) and either takes public transportation (a bus) to work or drives his 15yr old Volvo 240.

Does a drug smuggler deserve to be rich? I don't think so, even though it probably took considerable skills to be able to put together and successfully run a drug cartel. So yes, I think there is a moral component to this whole debate. Does the Church deserve to be rich (as many are, notably the Catholic church and several Evangelical 'empires')? I don't think so. They may do many 'good works' with the money they rake in (mainly through fear, guilt, and other forms of psychological manipulation), but should they get rich in the process? It's like the Red Cross or United Way using 20% of your donations for their stated missional goal, and the rest for 'administrative overhead'. Yeah, right.

But to the basic issue of who deserves to be wealthy? Anyone who earned it in a legal and non-exploitative way. What they do with it should be completely up to them and their own sense of morality (which is not up to us to judge, BTW). This is my take of it, of course, and not necessarily the right one.

chas

Chas said:
Ummmmm, is this heading towards "Obama hates rich people" and/or "the current administration (code for Obama) is turning us into a socialist state"? 'Cause
it sure seems to be leaning in that direction (by inference).


If it does go that way, it's you who brought up Obama and current administration, not anybody else, so remember that.

My question actually spawned from the Good vs Evil thread, and other threads I've seen about really having it in for people who have managed to build considerable wealth.

Russ said:
The kids will get $500,000 each, which means they'll have to actually work to support themselves, and a guitar or two, if
they want them.

Does this include your "adopted" kids? LOL, you don't have to answer that question. BTW, got the banjo setup and having fun with it. Eventually I think I'm going to replace the head though; I'm still getting some weird overtones out of it; I thought adjusting the tension on the head might fix it, but it hasn't really. Fun little banjo though, now I just have to find a dixieland band to get into. There's one I know of, but they already have a banjoist.

As far as your father-in-law's kids, it's unfortunate they turned out that way. But it's really not so much different than what happens on a world level. I mean, even I'm rich compared to some people born in countries in asia or Africa, just through having been born in prosperous America. I think it has more to do with how you're raised than how much money you're born into. Sure, it might be easier not to raise kids properly if they can have whatever whenever, but being born into wealth doesn't have to automatically mean you grow up to be no good.

(OT) Rory, it tickles me to death that you have that funky little banjo now. I would also like to give you one of my collectibles sometime. We'll talk about what instrument you could use. It would be great to have you play one of my instruments on a regular basis. Couldn't be in a more capable hands.


Russ

Yeah, but what else did Chas say? Stop cherry-picking my post, you sneaky little devil .

Rory, you know I'm kidding you. I really enjoy having a good discussion/debate with someone with a different point of view but is able to keep it on both a civil and intellectual level. The point is not to be right or wrong but to provide intellectual stimulation, food for thought. I think Bill might be caught up in that as we speak. At what point do you put your brain on hold and go into auto-psychobabble, 'God is good', 'all praise be to Allah', etc., etc. Okay, I can buy into the Ten Commandments provided Halle Berry isn't living next door - then I can buy into nine of them. BTW, which thread are we on? Is this the political one? Sorry, it's more fun battling the 'true believers'. BTW, that comment you made about your Dad possibly getting a big surprise on judgement day, that made me laugh......loudly.

This is O.T. but, how about posting any little ditty over on the arranger board, just to help the guys remember what a real instrument sounds like.

chas

I got the perfect little Ditty. It's called "Bibles and Rifles" from the record I produced next month. Sound good to you?

Yep. In the right hands, both can inflict a lot of damage, so I guess you could say they're a 'natural' pair.

chas

I too, think people deserve all the rewards from their work, ideas, labor, etc. This applies to churches, oil barons, investment bankers, lawyers, insurance companies, drug companies and yes, even right wing talk radio guys.

However...Not all transactions are equal. If Gary goes out and charges $150.00 for an hour of entertainment at a NH and does exactly that, its pretty neat and clean.

But what if Gary shows up without his KB and sings over MIDIs for an hour. He's still entertained his audience for an hour, right? What if he shows up and has his whole program vocals and backings pre recorded? He lip syncs for the hour. (Its happened in SW OH not that long ago, lol...) Are we now into an area where we're uncomfortable?

Churches have an extra burden because they accept monies usually under the banner of "charitable giving", so like other Charities, they are held to a different standard than a Corporation is. When compensation packages to the Church hierarchy seems extremely high, questions arise. Why do so many of the Sunday Morning preacher crowd seemed to be attired in nothing but the finest of high end suits?

Oil barons/companies make less profits percentage wise than most people think. My gripe with them isn't with how much money do they make, its the extent to which they will go via lobbying efforts to further tilt the scales in their favor. BP is widely known to have spent millions in lobbying to obtain less regulation, less accountability under the promise they'd behave themselves. Much remains to be known and understood about the Oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico, but I've seen reports coming from BOTH Conservative and Liberal Media that in the end, a part that costs less than $500k to replace had been identified as a likely factor. That puts an awful bad taste in people's mouths.

Investment Bankers, perhaps like Bernie Maddoff, also hold people's fortunes in their hands. I feel bad for people who lose money on the stock market, but too often its poor judgment that bites them in the ass. However, when customers or lending agencies act in good faith and are subsequently harmed by a reckless disregard for their investment, then NO, investment bankers don't deserve humongous paydays just because they figured out a way to game the system.

Lawyers, I really don't have a huge issue with their compensation.

Insurance Companies also make less profit than some people think. I do wonder why they need so much for their administrative and executive level compensation packages. They are not efficient and too often look for loopholes to deny coverage. I remember my law classes and the spirit of the agreement means something. Who has the means to take on a large Health Insurance Co.? Not too many. There's a whole other discussion we could have someday about the ethics of a Corporation making money on other people getting ill. Premiums and Co-Pays go up and up, while the CEO of UHC makes Bill McGuire made $124.8 Million last year.

While we have the best Doctors, Surgeons, Nurses, Testing Equipment, etc. we have arguably, the worst health delivery system of any industrialized country. Salaries like McGuire's wouldn't seem obscene if the Companies weren't nickel and diming "regular people" at the same time.

Big Pharma. Now these cats make some serious money. But let's step back for a moment...

According to Morningstar Financial, United Healthcare had a profit margin of 4.1% in the FY ending August '09. Wellpoint had a PM of 4.0%, the other largest HI companies came in well below that. The sector ranked 87th out of 215 rated by Morningstar.

Beverages were #1, with a PM of 25.9%. Right behind that were healthcare real-estate trusts (firms that are basically the landlords for hospitals and healthcare facilities) and application-software (think Windows). The worst performer was copper, with a profit margin of minus 56.6 percent.

Exxon had a PM of roughly 9%...

Big Pharma had a pm of 16.4%, 7th highest according to MS.

Now, the part I don't like is that while we've had this big battle over healthcare in the last 16 months or so, The Obama Administration cut a deal with big Pharma early on for them to 1) Not fight them on reform 2) to agree to not raise prices and 3) to kick in 800 million towards closing the donut hole for seniors prescription meds. They agreed, and in return they got a promise from this Administration that we would forgo our right to competitively shop for prices. Who does that? The VA system doesn't? No other industrialized countries do it? Shortly thereafter, Pharma announced a re-coding of several cost accounts and a sudden expansion of their R&D costs. They just moved the money around. Obama got played like a cheap fiddle.

I haven't even mentioned the subsidies that many of the industries above get annually from our Gov't. Those subsidies come from our tax revenues.

Ok, I haven't forgotten the talk shows guys. First off they're entertainers. Anyone who gets the bulk of their info on today's issues from Fox or MSNBC or Glen Beck or Thom Hartmann is going down the wrong road.

Ex: About a month ago Fox's Sean Hannity was all upset about how fast large companies were having to write off billions of losses due to the health care thing. Fact is, this involved subsidies (from you and me) that the Gov't. pays to large Companies to provide health care for its employees. For some unknown reason, Uncle Sam would give the ABC Corp. 50 Million to help pay for health insurance. Give it to them. BUT also also them to deduct it from their taxes.

That's right. They were able to write off gifts they received. Know any other industry like that? Nope, me either. So, the companies realizing they weren't going to be able to continue to double dip had to announce some changes to their expected P&L's. Over the next ten years...

So, did the Conservative, fair and balanced voice of Patriotism applaud the Obama Administration for stopping this accounting foolery and getting a huge amount of our hard earned tax dollars back?

No, he spent 20 minutes fear mongering about how the Socialist in the White House was slowly but surely bringing down some of America's greatest corporations.

Same thing with Death Panels. Originally a Republican idea that enhanced the one on one relationship between a patient and their doctor, it was perverted into any number of hideous things its most certainly not.

lest you think I only target Conservatives, some of the talk I've heard aimed at those people in the Tea Party movement is disgusting. They're not all morons, they are very much regular Joe's who are trying to do something for the Country they love. Misguided? Yes, sometimes. Ill-informed? Yes, but some of the crap from the left media is just brutal.

To wrap this up, I think people who provide a good value, are fair and responsible should make as much money as they can. If, on the other hand, there's intentional mis-information, trickery, deception within the narrow definition of the law, then I think they should not earn unlimited sums of money.

Sorry for the length but it was all tied together in my head, you know?

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Bill in Dayton

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 05-22-2010).]