yes they are and the parenting classes will not have been instigated by the schools. They dont have funding for that. That money will have come from government and probably money specifically set up for that purpose

This has been an interesting one. What started off as a well-intentioned observation about the lack of instruction in public schools(I suppose)on marriage and child rearing quickly became a pretty heated discussion about the involvement of government in schools, concern about government control and the inappropriateness of government dictating training and direction for marriages and parenting vs. the belief that government, defined as individuals and organizations elected by the public, has the responsibility of operating under the direction and for the benefit of the electorate.

I think we've gone way too deep into the situation and have overlooked the critical issue as originally defined by Taike. I know him, and his intention was to highlight the importance of marriage and parenting and to observe that, in most school systems, those very critical life issues are not addressed.
We've got to keep in mind that Taike is a skilled, dedicated teacher; it's his passion.

The unsaid message was, he believes, as I do, and, I'm sure most of you do, that these are important skills and issues that need to be addressed, in school...in church...at home....somewhere. Dedicating your life to your family is an honorable thing.

The whole discussion about the role of government, excess government control, etc. is a worthwhile one, but, I'm pretty sure, not necessarily part of Taike's original post or concern.

The primary posters here are all my very good friends, and, I'm sure, if they think about it, they are in agreement on the core issues here.

I think things just got off on a slight tangent. The discussion got a little heated.

And that's kind of sad.


Russ



[This message has been edited by captain Russ (edited 07-01-2010).]

i guess it is whether you believe that the state (and teachers are intrinsically a part of the state) should broaden even further their authority to teach children about marriage and relationships and child rearing. I am not comfortable with that at all.I think that is a role for parents and extended family . I know that this is not happening as much as it did in the past but parents on the whole over the last 40 years or so have had their responsibilities and authority over how they raise their children systematically stripped to the point where the culture in terms of who is supposed to do what has become so blurred that a significant amount of parents have basically accepted that the state have the lions share in how their kids turn out . But there is a role for parenting and marriage classes for the parents of children on a voluntary basis. These classes unfortunately are only usually available at the end of a relationship break down (at least in the UK) when the situation has become chronic. And they are usually at a cost which will indirectly discrimminate against the poorer member s of society.

Its a tough one to crack and thats for sure. Its even tougher being a responsible parent today than it ever was.

FAEbGBD is only making sense here.

I agree with him.

But I fear the government that does not fear me...

And their track record to date with the schools has been nothing short of abysmal.

The idea that it is education that is lacking -- without paying attention to *other* factors involved -- the spiritual, the example given by being a child in a good home with 2 heterosexual parnets who care in the first place, the examples of responsibility, love in the first person as related in deeds to the second person, the respect and desire to adhere to a moral code, enforcement of personal discipline and a few other things I've likely missed -- this idea that the public school system that is incapable of teaching the majority of students mere Reading, Writing and Arithmetic (which they now call "Math") just doesn't play out.

Because it does *NOT* take a village to raise a child.

Only Chas and Russ seem to comprehend what I'm trying to say.

All I can say is that you guys are confusing "education" with "indoctrination".

If education, -government is always involved to some extent, be it a public or private school- is that awful, why did your parents sent you off anyway? Some form of child abuse?

The Native-Americans were sent to boarding schools where they were beaten, forced to speak English and forbidden to speak their native tongue, forced to...well, just watch the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2u3VOZ4n4aM

Now THAT'S government involvement!!! And does no one give a hoot!!!

All I am saying is that we go to school and learn skills, and most often those skills will never be applied as most people work in unrelated fields of what they're majored in. Yet it is supposed to prepare us for what's out there. Now, what are the most important institutions? Marriage and parenthood. Yet we're not being prepared for it. Being prepared as in giving us the tools and know-how, not telling us that "this is the only way" because there is NO only way. What may work for one doesn't necessarily work for others. But as in most aspects of our lives, we're free to draw our own conclusions. You want to ignore the red light, go for it. But be prepared for the aftermath.

We talk about the high divorce rate and teenage pregnancies, drug use and so on. But we are not TAUGHT, we're merely TOLD. Show them the harsh reality, don't just talk about it or give out brochures. Have them talk to those that experienced it, those that know what it is like. That is the kind of education I'm talking about and it has nothing to do with government telling you what to do and how to do it. I have no idea where you even come up with these things other than that you must've been brainwashed by some fundamentalist cult. Education, NOT indoctrination, remember? Teaching is about showing, not merely talking the talk. Teaching is about giving options, not about having the final word.

Do you not teach your child(ren) by example? Or do you merely tell them not to do something without explaining the aftermath of what may happen? Do you tell a child not to play with matches if it doesn't understand why not since the flames are so pretty.

I guess I'm lucky to have enjoyed an education that was rather liberal in approach, even though it was a Catholic school. We attended church like twice a year and even that we usually were smart enough to skip. But never had we been indoctrinated.

This thread has been taken off-topic due to not knowing the difference between education and indoctrination.

Just keep in mind, in a perfect world a child's most important teachers are its parents. Luckily there are always some educators or other individuals that care enough to not fault the child for its parents' shortcomings and to provide the child with guidance, love and respect. As a kindergarten teacher, I strive to give my pupils a proper education and make them feel loved. Has no government ever told me what I should teach in class. I suppose teachers are expected to use common sense.

Funny this coming from two democracies. I've lived in a Communist country -actually will settle down there- and even there they're not being indoctrinated. Most students I've talked to enjoy school. Schools must be hell in the "free" world.

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As a hetero, I wish that same-sex marriages will enjoy the same status as those between the two sexes. Shouldn't be up to the government or religious institutions either. But in that case I'm positive that you'd insist on government involvement. Or does freedom of religion only apply to certain people?

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Bo pen nyang.


[This message has been edited by Taike (edited 07-04-2010).]

Taike-

I totally get what you're talking about. It's more about how Society has changed in many parts of the world, with both parents working, a reduced role for grandparents than a generation ago, etc. It has brought us to a place where for some children, not all, an additional dose of mainstream parenting skills is valuable.

In this time of hyper-anti Government sentiment, its easy to paint a pretty scary picture of how the "gov't." is subtly trying to control our youth. IMO, its almost trite to trot out the typical anti-government talking points and bash away.

Sure, in a perfect world, everybody has two intelligent, loving, well-adjusted parents to help guide them through their formative years. This is most certainly NOT a perfect world, so too often, kids get short-changed. Schools try their best to help fill in some of the missing pieces to help the kids know how best to care for an infant, raise a teenager, or maybe think about getting married.

I agree sometimes educators screw things up. We don't have to look any further than what the Texas Board of Education did this Spring. They removed Thomas Jefferson of all people and replaced him with conservative religious John Calvin. They also refused to require that students learn that the Constitution prevents the US Gov't. from promoting one faith over all others. Great...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/12/texas-education-board-app_n_497440.html

Are they educating or indoctrinating in Texas?

The gov't. makes lousy parents, no argument. But I'm glad that my local school district offers parenting and marriage course for our kids. For some children, like ours-its another perspective, some fresh ideas, etc. that my kids will be able to draw on as they see necessary down the road. You can't have too much information.



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Bill in Dayton

Beautifully put, Bill. It's like your words were coming out of my brain, but better articulated . It's hard to see how a fair minded person could fault your logic here. Of course, for those who see a 'government takeover' conspiracy behind every door, logic and common sense is not going to change their minds. I'm glad Taike brought up the issue of (accidently or on purpose) calling or passing off education as indoctrination. Teaching Creationism; THAT'S indoctrination.

BTW, how did Lady Gaga manage to make 62 million dollars last year? SOMEBODY must have been 'indoctrinated' . Apparently, the world loves 'bizarre'.

chas

Look, why is it that when someone holds a different view to the poster it is argued that they don�t understand your point? I am not anti government. I used to work for the government! Where the state work in areas that are best suited to state matters, it does it reasonably well. But there comes a crossover point where the state uses the wrong tools for the job or uses the correct tools inappropriately. If you or I do that, we affect a minuscule number of people but if the state does it, then it can potentially affect millions upon millions of people. I completely understand the point taike is making but I am simply saying caution must be used!

What has happened over the last 30- 40 years in the UK is the very gradual invasion of state policy into family matters and the erosion of parental responsibility. For example I work with children in a church choir and I coach basketball at a state school. I do it because I think it�s a worthwhile activity for my daughter and her cousins and my extended church family etc to be involved in and there is a desperate need for volunteers if these activities are to continue. The state has introduced various rules governing who can work with children for child protection reasons. They have also set down in detail how adults can interact with children. Now this is all because of the concern over the risk that someone might interfere with the children.

Now that�s a good reason I think everyone will agree but what about the execution of the policies?

I have had to have 2 separate sets of record checks at the highest level for the two roles that I play. The very first question I am asked on each form is � why do I want to work with children!!!!� !

I am motivated and despite what I feel is an intrusion into my life I accept that it is necessary and have let the system run its checks on me. Other coaches that I have worked with and volunteers (both male and female) who may even have been parents of some of the children at the choir and the school have objected and now no longer have any involvement with the organised activities and consequently have withdrawn their children. I am reconsidering my position certainly concerning basketball, as it is without doubt a contact sport.

Even some of the parents that simply did� the school run� taking their neighbours kids to the same school because it was cheaper to use one car than two have to have these checks done. Consequently, they now just take their own child for fear of being accused of avoiding the checks.

Various rafts of child protection polices have been inculcated into general UK policy morphing each time into something more detailed and far reaching to the extent that the fear of encountering a paedophile /abuser or worse being labelled as a paedophile or abuser or even being suspected (which a lot of people consider to be fact that you are one) is so much greater than the actual risk of encountering an actual abuser that an horrendous distortion of normal human interactions has resulted which some may argue is worse than the perceived problem the state was trying to fix.

It has brought in a culture of mistrust, suspicion and blame where anything can be termed �Abuse�, where adults can lose their jobs on unfounded suspicion of over protective parents. Children have become aware of their power to reduce grown men to tears and provoke them even to lose their livelihood by the mere hint that they 'looked at them in a funny way' because they know they will be believed in the first instance. Parents are looked at with fear and disgust and even set upon by over enthusiastic school personnel because they dared to take a picture of their own child in the school sports day that may have included the image of another child in the background!!

Children have lost out on the warmth of human interaction. They may run to hug an adult because they need comfort or reassurance or because they are excited that they achieved something they didn�t think they could or they have fallen over and simply want hug to take the pain away. In years gone by it would have been nothing for an adult to return the hug or to carry the child into the school office and clean up the cut. Now it�s �inappropriate �. My own child had a rash on her arm and her mother (we are divorced) gave her medication to rub on the arm but the school would not let her use it neither would they apply it because there was no prescription accompanying the medication. It was an over the counter skin cream.

As I say, I see this all the time and it is unnatural not to hug a child that needs comforting. But the fear of being accused of not following procedure or of something even worse has now taken precedent.

Pretty much any normal interaction with a child that no one would have had a problem with 20 years ago is considered unacceptable now.

And the consequences reach further as the fear of being labelled a paedophile has seen the almost complete eradication of a male presence in the classroom. In the UK, more than a quarter of primary schools have a zero male presence in the school. Zero!!!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/edu...e-teachers.html

And there is a direct correlation between the lack of males in schools and the fall in after school activities. And generally, why would any teacher voluntarily risk losing their job doing out of hours unpaid work? These are not exaggerations. I see them with colleagues and family who deal with this culture everyday. Many of the children in our schools are now labelled �Obese� because much of the schools sports and after school activities have stopped in part because of the fear that a child might get hurt. So we are looking at kids who are likely to suffer with weight related diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure in the years to come.

Children and their parents are starting to view pretty much all-adult men as a potential threat to them.

Do our children feel more safe and more loved now and do parents feel more relaxed and confident about the people they entrust the care of their kids with compared with 30 years ago?

So in short (although I grant you the preceding paragraphs were anything but short)

I get your point Taike. All I have alluded to is the concern I have that the state already has, in my view, too much say in our personal lives, our belief systems and how we raise our children. I have said from the start that the ideals of providing education in terms of marriage and parenting are worthy ideals but I have expressed caution at the thought of any further state interventions to �fix � the problem. I respect your view and I understand it. I just think it can potentially be the wrong tool for the job or have the propensity to cause more harm than good.

And Chas we can debate creationism and evolution on another thread if you like and compare views on what I might also class as indoctrination. J . Actually scratch that, I don�t have the time, got too much on at the moment.

Spalding, we are not 100% at odds here. I actually agree with the overwhelming majority of what you said in your last post.....well, up until the bit on Creationism . The fear of being accused of pediphilia has certainly done a great deal of harm and prevented what should have been normal, healthy, nurturing relationships between child and mentor. Children need to be protected but it has reached a level of ridiculousness. We have to try to find a balance somewhere or all of you dire predictions will most certainly come true and a lot of good, decent, people will be lost to the teaching profession, coaching, scouting, and just volunteerism in general.

In this vein, I don't consider this anti-government. My problem is with those who see the government as this evil entity that is only concerned with brainwashing our kids, regulating our social lives, taking over business and industry, and, most frighteningly, expanding. In this county, most of this gibberish comes from right-wing radio, all of whom seem to have this unabashed hatred for our president, and consequently find ways to spin every bad thing that happens in this country as somehow his fault. It's easy to sell hate in a bad economy. There have been some notable examples in recent history, but of course we all know what they are.

On the Creationism thing, how do you explain the 'dates'? Do we just throw out the science (carbon dating, etc.) even as we watch 'evolution' play out before our very eyes. Like you say, some other time .

chas

I would suggest we've seen much the same transformation in the States. Did the Government facilitate this change over time to meet their ends or was it more of a response?

I think nature abhors a vacuum, so as the "family" eroded due to various factors, growing gaps in education and child hood development were soon found. Its not optimal, but again in those situations where parents/families are not meeting the basic needs of the kids, then I say thank you to the schools who will try and help these children continue to grow.



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Bill in Dayton