Hi All,

Any word on options for pa1x pro? Additional sounds maybe and through what media? Or, and it's a dream come true, does it accept MOSS (spell?) boards like Triton does?

'Cause the price sounds a little too high even with the features mentioned although it does seems like a great keyboard.

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New Yorker

I played this keyboard in Nashville and this keyboard is a PA80 with a touch screen and I-30 sliders .

The only thing I liked about it was the action . Much better than the PA80 .

Dano

Nice, but does it that it doesn't have any add-on options like Triton does? If I want to add sounds, not replace them but add, I won't be able to do it?

Also, how are the drums on it? Modern, resampled or what?

Thank you.

"Pa1X Pro options include an MP3 encoder/player for direct recording of performances and playback of files or accompaniment. An optional CD-R drive can be installed for playback of standard audio files or to load new Sounds, Styles, and Samples. TC Helicon Vocal Effects upgrades include Pitch Correction and Voice Modeling."
from Harmony Central press release.

Yes New Yorker, you can add sounds by way of adding Expansion boards to the Pa-1X/Pro. There is room for 2 Expansion Boards that will increase the sounds but unfortunately I don't think they have one "yet" to increase the polyphony.

All the sounds on the Pa-1X/Pro can be modified, and even replaced with new ones. They are fully editable and the Expansion boards will add additional sounds.

The Drums are really good. Listen to the demos if you can to get an idea of how good they sound. http://www.korgpa.com/support/demo.asp?player=pa1xpro Download them if you can because they are longer than the Previews.

Best regards,
Mike

Anybody know how they do the strumming sounds?

Mike:

Where did you find this information? I can't find anything about expansion board capability (none of Korg's releases mention this to my knowledge). Source?

Hey Mikie,

Thanks for the tip....You saved me from showing up with egg on my face again!

I thought about going off on a rant regarding Korg's marketing techniques. First, the tiny snippets of a picture of the board, then the 10 second teasers of sound. C'mon Korg...If you are proud of the board, then show it off for crying out loud! Of course, I'm not into marketing so what do I know. Maybe teasing proves to be very effective???

Anyway, downloading the samples are the way to go.

Attention accordion players!! Download their accordion sample and give it a listen. Notice that 13 seconds into the piece, they change registers for the right hand...You even hear the click of the paddle shift (or whatever you want to call it). Yet the bass register stays the same.

Very cool!

Can't wait for them to come up with a realistic representation of bellow shaking.

mike

Originally posted by: The Pro

Mike:

Where did you find this information? I can't find anything about expansion board capability (none of Korg's releases mention this to my knowledge). Source?


Here is the info:

New Sounds Through Sound Expansion

Not enough sounds? We doubt it but if you want to add more, the Pa1X has two slots available for the addition of optional user installable 16Mb Korg sound upgrade boards. These can provide up to 512 extra sounds and 128 extra drum kits.

Sampling

Still not enough sounds? In the real professional world you work in, you may need to add even more of your own custom sounds. The Sampling section in a fully developed feature to satisfy almost any professional need. You can create (record) up to 32 Mb of your own samples and multisamples (with optional added SIMM chips). Or you can load Wave, AIFF, Korg format files and of course the incredible Akai sample library – about the largest sample library available.

The Pa1X also features professional editing facilities such as loop, cut, normalize and cropping of samples. A special "Time Slice" feature allows you to slice audio grooves and import the audio data into a Style for the coolest rhythms available.

And here is the link:
http://www.korgpa.com/products/pa1xpro2.asp

You will have to scroll down some.

Best regards,
Mike



[This message has been edited by Idatrod (edited 07-22-2003).]

Hey - they've added more info here! Thanks, Mike. Apparently the "expansion boards" the PA1X uses are the same EXB-series board used in the Karma and the Triton. From the reviews of the EXB-PCM08 (Grand Piano expansion board) used in the Triton, the expansion boards DO NOT add polyphony - they only add 16 MB of PCM samples to the existing sound engine. Had my hopes up for nearly a minute there. Looks like the 62-note polyphony of the PA1X Pro (no coincidence that it's the same polyphony as the Triton) is locked in stone. Drat! So near and yet so far...

[This message has been edited by The Pro (edited 07-22-2003).]

Also the Pa1X (61 Key with internal speakers) will have a BETTER sound system than the PA80 has. It says it will be sufficient even for Live performance use!

How big of a crowd and [Room] before it reaches its limit is another question though. If it has even an inkling of the sound system that the Technics KN7000 has then were in for a real treat.

Best regards,
Mike

Accurate Speaker System (Pa1X only)

Some companies add speakers to a finished keyboard, almost as an after thought. Do the speakers really match the sound output of the keyboard? But Korg was driven by the pursuit of RX Technology. To achieve a stunning sound, we decided to get the best possible sound system and then design the keyboard around that. The result? A sound system in an Arranger keyboard that will amaze and delight you, and ensure your audience believes they are listening to the real thing!

The Pa1X uses a powerful, high quality custom designed bi-amplified two way bass-reflex box speaker system driven by studio quality power amplifiers. The speakers match the amplifier and faithfully reproduce the detail of the Pa1X sound engine.

Volume? The Pa1X has more power than ever before! Whether you use it to play internal sounds and styles or maybe just to listen to an audio CD, the Pa1X gives you the best sound system in an Arranger keyboard]

Whats does this mean? speakers an option? or only on the 61 note version?

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 07-22-2003).]

I think there will be 2 versions 1 which we already know about PA1-X Pro with 76 keys no speakers and the other one will be a 61 key with builtin speakers and they both will be out next year some time in jan-feb I think it is written some where on the korgpa.com site. (not the release date it is my guesstimate)

from www.korgpa.com website...
Sounds quality

The amazing sound quality of the Pa1X simply has to be heard to be believed. We want you and your audience to feel like there is a real band on stage – we want the experience to be real....

Unfortunately, the trumpet player has to shut up when the saxophonist plays his part

I still can not believe that they dropped the ball on the polyphony issue. While there are better and worse ways to implement voice allocation, the math does not lie - if there are not enough voices to go around, something will have to give.

As I read each piece of info about the PA1X, a little voice in the back of my mind keeps saying "...nice, but it only has 62 voices of polyphony".

That's just too bad. I hope you guys are not as put off by this as I am.

Regards,
Alex

Yes polyphony is an issue but I have heard some very complex arrangements on Triton (62 polyphony) since I am guessing Korg did not redesign the sound chip or anything it is same with maybe few different samples kind of Mega voices with a fancy name RX the real RX seems to be the operating system which allows for on screen help and more user friendly than PA-80 was well these issues can be addressed by Korg only that why they are still stuck with 62 note polyphony and one more drawback is that effect placement in PA1-X is same PA-80 not like Triton I mean come on Korg isn’t suppose to be a true professional arranger workstation ?

A Keyboardist should NEVER sacrifice Sounds for features. Okay, that is a good point but if the Pa1X/Pro which apparently has absolutely fantastic sounds, should we also have to sacrifice features? In other words, the sounds are there, ie., Fantastic Sounds on the Pa1X/Pro, but they have scaled back one of the most important FEATURES for an Arranger Keyboard; an abundance of Polyphony! Korg deliberately decided to make the Pa1X/Pro to have 62 note Polyphony. I consider their decision an extreme lack of foresight on their part. The Pa1X/Pro could have been the new Arranger World's Monster Keyboard supplanting any and every thing else on the Professional Arranger Market including the Tyros, Ketron SD1 Plus, 9000Pro and Technics KN7000. But they choose to limit the Pa1X/Pro's viability and acceptance in the Arranger Keyboard Market by providing it with a miserly amount of Polyphony.

Sometimes I think these Keyboard Manufacturers don't necessarily WANT to sell a bucket load of Keyboards to the masses. They just want to tease us, squeeze us, manipulate the market, anger us, frustrate us, and all the while laugh at us in our predicaments. I pray to God I am wrong but that is the impression I get sometimes.

I've said it once and I'll say it again: "the customer is and never has been number one in the eyes of the Keyboard Manufacturers. They reserve that roll for themselves much to the chagrin of the buying public and oftentimes their 'loyal' customers. I think they may have a love for Music (but not necessarily ) and they want their customers to be satisfied to a reasonable extent but the bottom line for them is increasing their revenue and prospering as an entity. In other words, the buying public is way down on the totem pole in my opinion in regards to what is important in their eyes. Were just a number, a figure $$$, an avenue or vehicle by which they become wealthy, and I'm sorry to say "little else".

Best regards,
Mike

[This message has been edited by Idatrod (edited 07-23-2003).]

"A Keyboardist should NEVER sacrifice Sounds for features." Never say "never". It depends on what else you might have.

Sounds and polyphony are easily supplemented with a module. It is harder to deal with inadequate style storage, poor chord recognition, lack of vocal harmony, slow transfer rates, lack of continuous controllers including aftertouch, a bad navigation system.

Also, Korg is criticized since its cards do not add polyphony while Yamaha's do. On the other hand, Korg's 62-note polyphony applies to the added sounds as well as the original sounds. In the case of Yamaha, the added sounds have only their own polyphony and do not benefit from the keyboards base polyphony. For example, Yamaha's VL voices have 1-voice polyphony, period. Also, the added polyphony is not available to the original voices. Basically, Yamaha allows you to have 2,3, or 4 synths in one case, but integration of these synths is limited.

62 Korg voices beat 126 Yammies anyday. It's all in how you allocate it.

I guess I still don't understand the polyphony issue. Maybe if your going to do classical concert you might run out of notes. But 62 notes is a lot for jazz, rock and roll and country unless your going to have 12 guitars struming the same notes.

Dave, I have to agree with you here. I had a lengthy conversation with my Korg Distict Sales Manager this morning regarding the issue of 62 voice polyphony. Here's what he had to say:
First, all Triton products have no more than 62 notes of polyphony. Even the Triton Studio 88 has just 62 note polyphony, although there are two seperate boards in this instrument each having actually only 60 notes each. So, if you think you have 120 total notes to work with, you are wrong because you can not "share" the polyphony with the same kinds of sounds. Piano, etc. have their own 60 notes and other sounds have their own.
Now, regarding voice allocation, Korg uses the system of "least significant allocation" which means the sound with the lowest volume will be dropped if needed. Because Yamaha uses many sounds with 4 waveforms per foice and Korg never uses more than 2 waveforms per voice, Yamaha sounds can use up more polyphony with the same number of fingers being used for sounds. He also reminded me of how many Tritons are being used in the world and that the issue of lack of polyphony has not been a problem that Korg have received calls about from users.
These are just a few points I wanted to share with you.
For whatever reason Korg has, the Triton chip and polyphony issue is remaining unchanged for the time being and Korg must have decided that to change the manufacturing process at this time would be too costly.
When I think of how many i30's i've sold and in the past year how many PA80's I've sold, and most of my customers are pro players using these keyboards for playing live in resteraunts and clubs, I have not heard complaints about notes being dropped off. I would hope that many of you will hold out and get to try this keyboard when it hits the market in October.
My rep also told me that it is quite possible there will be a PA1X with 61 keys and speakers possibly in other countries, but as often is the case, the USA division has only choosen to bring in the pro 76 key model for now.
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California

Good point Dave. They say that two voices whether it's one Main and one Layer, or a layered voice within one voice, etc., that the Korg boards only use 1 note of Poly. We will have to see for ourselves if Polyphony is going to be an issue on the Pa1X/Pro or not. If you're correct and if what I heard is correct then maybe were all making do about nothing. It has also been said that the GEM Genesys/Pro, which only has 64 note Polyphony, is also allocated much better than, let's say, Yamaha's Keyboards are. It is very intriguing to say the least. I can't wait to get my hands on one. You better believe before I leave the store that has it on display I will know for certain that it either has or has not passed my litmus test regarding note drop off.

I'm in the process now of thinking up new ways to get the Board to start dropping notes when I play it. I think if there's anybody out there that can make a Keyboard buckle (by making it start to drop off notes) when playing it, it's probably me. I just can't wait to apply the "pressure" to see if it will pass the test or not.

If it passes the test and the sounds are as good as they say and from what we've heard so far, and the other features are all they're cracked up to be, etc., the Pa1X (61 Key version) will probably be my next Arranger. And I say that about the Pa1X because of it having internal speakers and the Pa1XPro does not. But before I purchase it, it has to pass my meticulous and high standard. I am picky I agree but the Keyboard I have now is considered a Professional Arranger Keyboard and I can attest to that fact (It is absolutely wonderful). And there are more people than you can shake a stick at that use their PSR 2000 in a Professional environment. But if the Pa1X/Pro is all that Korg is saying it is, it should be head and shoulders above my PSR 2000 in respect to the term Professional Arranger.

Best regards,
Mike

George your Korg Rep should realize that the Triton is not an Arranger Keyboard. Thus note drop off would be less of an issue imo because of the Triton not having Style Accompaniment, Multi-Pads, Registrations, OTS, etc. But it is interesting that you say you have not heard complaints from your i30 and PA80 customers about note drop off. So maybe the Polyphony issue with the Pa1X/Pro will be mute "pardon the unintended pun " also.

But you just burst my bubble George!! No 61 Key version in the USA??? You mean I'll have to order one from Synth Planet?? From a place that the Manufacturer's Warranty is voided if shipped to the US? And the AC inlet Connection on the Pa1X probably won't work with USA voltage specs anyways?

I feel like somebody just stabbed me in the back!!! (PS: Not you George , you're just the messenger of the bad news). Korg! You've just lost my vote as Arranger Keyboard Manufacturer of the Year! Ouch!! Talk about a BIG letdown!!!

Back to plan "B". Which is wait and see what shows up on the Radar screen at Winter NAMM 2004. Gotta have those speakers... On a unit that will have a Manufacturer's warranty and be able use an 110 Voltage source.

Best regards,
Mike

[This message has been edited by Idatrod (edited 07-24-2003).]

My KORG Trinity has only 32 Notes of Poly and I have been sequencing orchestral music on that for 8 years.

Here's an example of what a max of 29 notes sound like on my Triton Studio.
http://www.irishacts.com/sharp/superman.mp3

Regards.
James.

I don't buy this, either on merit or fact. I grant that many people who sing along with their performances rather than perform instrumentally won't run into the same issues that I do - but on any given song of mine I run drums, bass, guitars and electric piano and/or synth pads with occasional horn stabs or strings as sequenced midi backing or arranger accompaniment. I have used polyphony counters that show this takes anywhere from 30-54 notes of polyphony alone (Yamaha's S-XYG50 softsynth has a polyphony counter if you want to find out the polyphony of your own sequences - free demo at http://www.yamaha-xg.com). Then on the same instrument I have piano and optional layered strings. Quite often I perform arpeggios with the sustain pedal down, which racks up the polyphony fast with or without accompaniment. The Yamaha 9000 Pro comes with 128 notes of polyphony standard and I can max that out pretty easily (acknowledging that Yamaha uses multi-voice sounds). But to compensate for this I've added a 64-voice dedicated piano card, which solved the problem of running out of polyphony. I also added the DX expansion card to give me another 16 notes of dedicated polyphony (total polyphony: 208). And I did this all for well under what the base price of a PA1-X Pro alone will cost.

Ok, so I'm a power-user and like the option of having more than ample polyphony to cover Yamaha's multi-voice sounds - but at least I had that option with the 9000 Pro... on any Triton-based instrument, including the PA1-X Pro, I wouldn't. The optional Korg expansion cards add sample memory to the instrument but not polyphony. So even if Korg doesn't think it's possible to max out their polyphony and I do it anyway, there's nothing I or Korg can do about it after the fact. And don't even get me started about what will happen when the PA1-X cross-fade dual sequencers come into play. I don't want "least significant allocation", I want to not need it.

Of course I intend to give the PA1-X a fair shot and if it's a better instrument for my needs than my 9000 Pro then I will buy one. I was rooting for Korg in the first place and they came through with things like the first SP/DIF digital output on an arranger. But the polyphony issue isn't going away without solid hands-on evidence that it isn't an issue - and if Korg's production costs to match the polyphony options of Yamaha's 9000 Pro are too cost prohibitive for them, then that'll be all the more reason to stay with a proven leader.

Well said Jim. I concur wholeheartedly.

Mike

Couple of you guys beat me to the illogic in the "we have plenty of Tritons out there and haven't had a problem" statement......that's because they are not running full bore as the pro noted. I will say when I had a Motif with it's 62/64 note poly was the first time I had note drop off as I tried to load up voices and sustain etc....so to those of us that use any board in an arranger way, I say 62 poly doesn't cut it. IMO.
Terry

------------------
jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

My thought's exactly, on the poly problem.
I can't believe that Korg would make such
a well thought out keyboard & then cut corners
with only 62 note poly.
Maybe it won't be a problem, but it don't seem
right to me, Time will tell.
I was thinking at first this new Korg sounded
like it would be a good replacement or addition to / for
my 9000 Pro, but I don't know now.

I know for a fact that I on occasion run out of polyphony on my Roland G1000, which also uses no more than 2 waveforms per voice and has 64 note polyphony. It also uses a fairly good scheme of voice allocation, so it is not very notitceable, but it is noticeable to me. We are not talking about the question of how many notes one can press at the same time - we are way past arguing that 10 voice polyphony is sufficient. We are also not talking about pre-programmed sequences, where one can easily manage the numbers of notes being played by editing them out. This is real-time play, with eight polyphonic parts of arranger, and layered voices for the solo parts. Add to that two waveforms per voice (I bet most of the better acoustic sounds do use two waveforms), and the sustain pedal... Now, did you say that Korg intends to allow the sequencer to play at the same time???

I just feel that Korg has just built a six-million-dollar man, but with a slight limp. For the money they are intending to charge for this instrument I would expect it to be without such significant shortcomings.

By the way, I don't sing (though I am trying to learn), so my performances are instrumental. Of course, this is not an issue for people who are doing mostly vocal acts, since all they want is bass and drums, but then they usually go for a minimalist solution anyway, and probably would not plunk $3500 for a PA1Pro. Isn't that right, Uncle Dave?

Regards

hello !

also there is another problem , I think that the acoustics sounds of KOrg are not so good , and if there won't be oriental sounds like in the Tyrus and the SD1 I will need to sample some acoustics sound , and that will increase the problem of poliphonia.

by

------------------
davidfle@hotmail.co.il

Is it true that no Korg products exceed 62-voice polyphony? I thought my Karma with MOSS installed had 68-voice polyphony. That would be true for Tritons as well. I believe the MOSS board is like a Yamaha plug-in, having its own 6-voice polyphony.

But I feel Korg has become trapped by the Triton's success. It seems Korg won't let itself exceed Triton specifications--62-voice polyphony, 32MB ROM, 16MB ROM expansions. In the meantime, Yamaha has reached 175MB ROM and 128 voice polyphony (expandable) and Roland has introduced 64MB expansion cards and Emu has 32MB expansion cards.

Yamaha's dynamic allocation scheme doesn't appear to be as good as Roland or Korgs. I own a Roland XV5080 and Korg Triton Pro and neither of them have issues with dropouts when I play lots of notes with sustain. On the other hand I had an expanded Yamaha 9000 Pro which had over 136 notes of polyphony and I had note dropouts all the time.

The issue with Yamaha is that they often stack 3 or 4 parts to make up a single sound. Many of the sounds on the Yamaha arrangers utilize so many parts that your polyphony is practically nil. If you remove the stacked sounds the keyboard sounds become so thin that there isn't much you can do to still have a great sound and decent polyphony.

Until Yamaha makes an arranger with 256 note polyphony or more, chances are you are going to have drop out issues if you use lots of sustain or do elaborate sequences. I'd actually feel more comfortable using a PA1X Pro with 62 notes of polyphony over a Tyros with 128 notes of polyphony. Of course YMMV greatly.

The MOSS board does add polyphony as well as expanded synthesis features. 6 additional notes of polyphony to be exact. The other Korg sound expansion boards do not add additional polyphony only new sounds.

The new Triton Pro does have more than 62 notes of polyphony, its in the 120 range, but varies dependent upon the effects used.

My understanding of polyphony is that it is based on cpu power. The faster the chip the more polyphony it can handle. Does this mean Korg is scrimping on chips. Are cpu chips THAT expensive?
Starkeeper

Do any PA80 customers have polyphony issues ?

I have digital pictures of this keyboard . I took close up shots of the buttons /panel . I can not get them posted .

Can someone help me ?

Triton Studio has 124 notes polyphony.
62 for Rom
62 for expansion boards

Dano, you have to upload pictures to a web site, then follow these instructions.

"You can easily add a picture to a post when the image is either uploaded or already located on another website.


1) Right-mouse click the image and select 'properties'. This should display the http (URL) address.

2) Copy/paste the 'ENTIRE' http address into the Synthzone posting 'message' box and precede it with the UBB code: "[img]", and at the end of the address, add "[/img]".

To add a graphic within your message, just encase the URL of the graphic image as shown in the following example (UBB Code is in red).


In the example above, the UBB Code automatically makes the graphic visible in your message. Note: the "http://" part of the URL is REQUIRED for the [img] code. Also note: some UBB forums may disable the [img] tag support to prevent objectionable images from being viewed".

I hope this helps.
Denny

I've had my Pa80 for about 18 months and have never noticed drop-out due to polyphony - at least not that I was aware of or obvious !!

Regards,
Steve

WRONG ! As a player that depends on these tools for my bread and butter - I want the best fit that is available to me ! I want all the toys. I want all the tricks. i want all the advances, and even though money is ALWAYS an issue ...... it will not stop me from getting a tool that I can use to my advantage on stage.

BTW - the PA80 handles allocation quite well, and I am a sustain pedal HOG. You have to be careful of how many instruments are being used in the arranger section mostly. They tend to be overloaded, and can be thinned out without much loss to the arrangement.