Are you joking?

Mo.... I agree that you said you wanted to pay 'a bit' more. Not as much as Roland want you to pay, but hey, it's your purchasing decision... So you want pretty much ALL the E80's features at the E60's weight (and being over 30 lb., even THAT falls outside of the 25 lb. target by SOME players here!). I still haven't seen you post about what you ARE prepared to give up for that $1500...

Why have we turned into a nation (or world!) of whiners and weaklings...? Back in the 70's, we (or our more elderly contemporaries) lugged around MUCH heavier equipment, and somehow got the job done. Have we atrophied that far?

Look, I understand that for many of you, key-feel, and solidity mean nothing. Some of you can't even tell the difference between a G70 and a T2! I don't expect you to 'get' it. Perhaps you learned on super lightweight keyboards with crappy actions and are used to it. Perhaps your playing level isn't up to the point at which a decent action would make a difference. Who knows (or cares)?

But the fact is, the entire keyboard industry makes keyboards that are WAY heavier than your 30 lb. target. If you were the majority opinion, do you think they would continue to do so? MOST keyboard players seem to prefer a solid keybed and a substantial weight, especially to 76-ers and 88's. Just be grateful that the arranger industry IS prepared to make ultra-lightweights for the seniors that often play them.

But PLEASE don't try to persuade us that this lightness comes with NO drawbacks or compromises. If that were so, there would not be a single keyboard out there over 30 lb.!

But, yes, I agree that they could be made a BIT lighter. My G1000 weighed about 5 lb. less than my G70. It was a bit physically smaller, and made primarily of plastic and composites, but had exactly (or close to it) the same key-bed. But that still put it at 40 lb.. WAY outside your target weight. Didn't stop it from being one of the most popular arrangers during it's product cycle....

Do you think that Roland, or any other manufacturer of 76's and 88's does NO market research? Do you think that if the vast majority of players looking for a 76 note arranger were unwilling to buy a 45-50 lb. arranger that they would still go ahead and make one? I'm afraid that you might have to admit that your feelings about weight are in the minority. The fact that these arrangers DO sell seems to indicate that for what Roland consider their target consumer, this is OK...

At least, these buyers are prepared to admit that shaving it down to 30 lb. would involve more structural and 'feel' compromises than they are prepared to take. When they eventually learn how to make an arranger that feels as good and solid as my G70 at 30 lb., I will be the first to buy one. But while there is any form of compromise, I am prepared to lug around a keyboard that is still 80 lb. lighter that the keyboards I used in the 70's and 80's!

What we have here is a failure to deal with reality. If all arrangers WERE under 30 lb. (and felt the way they do now), you wouldn't want to listen to me whine all the time about how much like a toy they feel. "Deal with it...' you would say. Now just flip that around.

Or maybe I can interest you in a balsa-wood piano? Or a chipboard B3.....?

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Common misconception...size and weight equal quality and performance. Don't be fooled.

Ian agreed

no dont stop now ....lets see if we can squeaze some more juice from the size/weight/quality argument a bit longer.....

There is no size/weight argument, except from those who
have heavy boards and like them, who want to piss on everyone who likes lighter boards. In the 30 lb and under
category, TOTL is the Korg pa800, the Roland E60, the
Yamaha psr-3000 (until the new Yamaha s-900 out in 2
months The T2 isn't that much over 30 lbs, the Ketron
Sd1+ and sd5+ are in mid-30's. I think the E60 has a
pretty good feel, i suspect the Sd1+ does too, and both
are 76 keys. I never had a problem with my Korg is35 at 28 lbs, or my Technics kn2600 at 25 lbs. I don't know
how "solid" they have to be, i use an X-stand and they don't bounce around at all, and i can get a lot of different
shadings with no problem at all.

Diki , maybe your problem is that you really want a PIANO
not a synth keyboard. Maybe your technique is carried over from when you only played piano and you haven't
developed the kind of touch one needs on a synth keyboard. maybe you hit the keys TOO HARD,

Your arguments are specious re manufacturers: they are
all scrambling to make lighter equipment. lighter keys,
lighter amps, lighter speakers. It's not for the senior
market they do this. it's just the way technology advances.

you are a total sissy compared to the guys who lug their
hammond b3's around with their leslies. if you want to have a solid keyboard so much, as i said earlier, why not
take a nice digital piano in the 70-100 lb range? these days they have many arranger keyboard features, too.

and I don't like it when you distort what i say. I say I'm
willing to pay what is reasonable for a better OS and mic plug-in and multipedal jack. i'm not looking for all the features of the E80 on the E60, yet you keep calling me
a whiner who wants that. i don't care a hoot about most
of the features on the E80. I never stop hearing you whine
however about the lack of a chord sequencer.

if you don't mind the weight, good for you. others do, and
they are entitled to make their own tradeoffs without your
condescending attitude. They are also entitled to you not
constantly whining about others' critiques of equipment
and calling them whiners instead.

------------------
Miami Mo

I must admit, Mo, I don't understand why you are so pi**ed at me... I don't manufacturer keyboards at all. You got a beef, it's with EVERY single manufacturer out there.

Yamaha's last 76 note arranger weighed 45 lb. Roland's current one weighs the same. The new Audya will be 37 lb. The Ketron SD-1 weighs 36 lb.. NONE of these arrangers have speakers... The Wersi Abacus has only 61 notes, but has speakers, weighs 77 lb.!

I am simply trying to point out a few of the reasons that I think they have for making them that way. But maybe they are just doing it to bust your back? I don't think so...

As I said, WHEN they make a 30 lb. 76-er that feels as good as my G70, I'll be first on board and no complaints. So I AM agreeing with you... But in the meantime, thank God, I am still physically fit enough to move one around solo, when I need to. When my strength eventually goes, I will probably be in the same boat, and will HAVE to use whatever exists then at that weight point (or lighter). But by then, it will probably be a laptop (or rack computer) and a lightweight master controller.

There are well documented problems with many ultra light weight 88's and a few 76's. Seems that, unless you support them very evenly (think a table top), the cases flex sufficiently to make for 'sticky' notes and unreliable triggering. It's just basic physics. The case that supports the keybed has to have sufficient strength to not flex, and unless you are willing to pay the high price of carbon composites, that case (so far) has to be made of something that weighs more. They build bridges out of steel and pre-stressed concrete, these days, not wood.

I'm sorry, Mo, but YOU are the one complaining about a trade-off, NOT ME! Roland make a perfectly good 76-er in the weight range you want. But YOU don't want to make the trade-off that incurs. I've already tried to help you with tips about using MIDI pedals to get back the FC-7 functionality, but that is too much bother, apparently. There are rack vocal processors with (IMO) far better harmony capabilities than most arrangers out there (Korg excluded), but that is too much bother, apparently, also. And if all you need is a mic input and some reverb, your mixer already does that!

I'm sorry, but IMO you have this thing turned around... I'm not ragging you about using light weight keyboards. Have at it, and all the best! YOU seem to be the one upset about anyone satisfied with the way things ARE, rather than your utopian vision of fly-weight keyboards with no compromise. Don't shoot the messenger. Take it up with Roland, and Yamaha, and Ketron, and Wersi, and Korg, and Lionstracs (have I missed anyone?).

Final words (and they ARE my last on this topic ), I am utterly fed up of Ian, and Donny chiming in on a subject they have NO place commenting on.... When you have a 76-er, feel free to join in. I remind you once again, Yamaha's last 76 note arranger weighed 45 lb. and had no speakers!

Let's just stick to comparing apples to apples will you... Or I'm going to start posting info on those cute little 2 octave, 4 lb. controller keyboards the laptop jockeys LOVE, and ask why you are playing those 25 lb. behemoths!

Diki,

I will comment on ANY topic I wish, irregardless if you like it or not.

Even though YOUR posts are becoming tedious and repetitive with this weight issue(not to mention the chord sequencer)I do enjoy and respect the opinions of the other members.

Now, please stop acting as moderator, and, I must say I agree with Mo...your attitude is becoming very condescending towards people who don't agree with you.

You seem to think that if something doesn't move, you need a bigger hammer and more blows...but, combine those tactics with the aforementioned attitude, and all that will be accomplished is that your opinions will lose more weight...oh darn, there's that word again.



Ian


------------------
Common misconception...size and weight equal quality and performance. Don't be fooled.

gentlemen my comment about squeezing more juice from this argument re size/weight and quality was just British humor/sarcasm !!

Please drop it and the personal comments too. We are grown ups right?

slightly off topic. I went to sound control in Birmingham today and saw the yamaha XS7. Nice nice board Way too many sounds to audition in one afternoon ! anyway i wanted to tell you about the E80. I spent the best part of about an hour with the instrument specifically trying to get a better sound from the onboard speakers as this one , like the previous two i have played at differnt shops sounded just as poor as the others . I did my best but to no avail. Sound Control have a new policy now whereby Roland reps actually come and work within the store advising staf and customers concerning the function of their products , employed by and paid for by Roland direct.

The Roland product specialist saw me playing the instrument and i guess shaking my head so he came over. He asked my what was up and i told him. He started to edit he EQ on the keyboard and after 10 minutes ...started to shake his head too ! The only effect the adjustments he made were having an affect on the superior piano sound i was using NOT THE ACCOMPANIMENT ! He specifically went into a function to alter the bass and he turned the dial and the numbers on the screen incremented but the sound did not change. Neither for the drums . He said that he would have to call me back in when he had figured out what was wrong but he did say that neither myself nor himself had been doing anything wrong . Both of us agreed that this could be another OS glitch and would have to be looked into. As this was the 3rd E80 that i have played i am starting to suspect that it is in fact an OS glitch just as i felt the same way when the G70 came out but everyone hat bought one was telling us that it was perfect. There seems to be a definate problem with the E80 speaker system and its not just my ears.

Bebop if you are reading this and you have your E80 now please test this and tell us what you have found in terms of the speaker quality. I have never owned a roland instrument but was seriously tempted by the E80. For me built in speakers is essential which is why i have the PA1X. Compared to the PA1X the speakers in the Roland sound like one of those tinny personal steros. I have high hopes for the E80 but Roland have to sort this problem out. Is there a general problem with quality control at Roland as i am struggling to believe that they released the G70 (original OS ) and now the E80 (poor internal speakers ) after any thorough quality control.

Buy a PA1x Pro and fill all the vacant internal space with little helium balloons.