OK so the topic title got you in here and hopefully someone can help me with my 'Mud' problem....

When recording my 'tunes' on the pc I have noticed that my stuff always sounds really 'muddy' compared to others I have heard.

A good example would be the the collaborative cd a few of us did with Terry a while back called 'No Borders'. I worked really hard on my two songs and was relatively happy with them (though am never 100% happy with my own compositions). On recieving the cd I was amazed at how crystal clear everyones mixes were in comparison to my own which sounded like I was playing from the bottom of a bucket.

I hasten to add that the quality of my mix had nothing to do with Terry who simply adjusted the songs for volume and added them to the cd. Everyone was responsible for their own work.

I realised that I must be doing something really wrong to end up with these 'muddy' mixes but for the life of me cannot figure out what I am doing.

Basically I was running two jack outs from the keyboard to two phono in's on the soundblaster live platinum in the pc. Recording the music, adding the vocals with just a touch of reverb, maybe a melody line or a single instrument and then mixing the lot down to one .wav file.

I considered that maybe my gear was not up to the job. SO I bought a Lexicon Studio core2 24 bit soundcard with breakout box off ebay to replace the soundblaster. (Even reformatting my music pc back to windows 98 as the lexicon has no drivers for XP grrrr). I replaced my sm58 with a (cheapish) condenser mic.(I am watching a c1000s on ebay at the mo on Terry's recomendation). Bought a Behringer mixer so that I can run all the sub outs of my 9000 pro and adjust individual parts for volume etc before they get to the pc and replaced all my leads with gold plated phono leads or jack leads depending on the connections.

Eagerly I recorded a 'ditty' and guess what? EXACTLY the same. MUD MUD MUD!

Does anyone have any idea what I am doing wrong?? It is especially infurating when I hear everyone else's posted work and it sounds so clear and precise. I have tried to explain my setup (new and old) best I can but if you need further info just ask.

Btw I use Cool edit pro or N track studio 3 for recording.

Thanks for reading if you got this far and I look forward to hearing your ideas.
Tony

Tony,
You might want to have a read through this post I did on recording mechanics over at SVP. http://www.svpworld.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=117&PN=1
Terry

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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

Tony,
It's difficult to diagnose without hearing the end result. If you could post one of the recordings, then I may be able to help.

One of the first things I would do is burn the recording onto a CD, then listen to it using the CD player in your car or something other than through the computer's sound system. If you still hear the same, muddy recording, it will be a process of elimination to determine where the problem orriginates.

It is possible that your recording software may be the culprit. You can check this by going to www.goldwave.com and downloading the shareware version of GoldWave and re-record one of the songs to see if the same problem persists. Again, make sure you burn the song on a CD and listen to it on something other than the computer.

Another frequent culprit is the graphic equalizer settings of the mixer. Essentially, they should should be somewhat crisp, with some emphasis on the high and low end, and the mid range just a little above flat--kinda' like a smile.

If at all possible, record your vocals dry and add any effects in the editing process. There are times when reverb and echo are really detrimental to the recording phase.

Hope this is of some help,

Gary

Well to start off your new Lexicon Core2 sound card is sure up to the task. It is a highly rated sound card. The only possibility of something amiss with the sound card is that it may be defective. You said you bought it on Ebay, right? Was it a brand new right off the shelf one or was it a used and possibly "abused" one? If it was a new one then I would tend to think it is not the sound card causing the problem although sometimes even a new piece of Hardware will be defective. This is going to be a process of elimination like Gary stated and the more people there is to input their ideas the better. So don't be shy guys and gals. Please chip in to give Tony some of our ideas and expertise.

Tony, you say you have a breakout box for the Lexicon. I have a breakout box too on my Delta 44 PCI. What I do on my setup is I run my 1/4" Main Outs on my PSR 2000 using Monster Studio Link Mono Left/Right cables to my Mackie 1202 Pro Mixer's Line 1 & 2 inputs. I adjust the EQ's to my preference which is High EQ: +5 or so, Mid EQ: slightly below Detente, Low EQ: around +2 or +3,then I run the Outputs (again, using Monster Studio Link Gold Series 1/4" cables but the Output Cables are "Balanced", ie., TRS Stereo cables. I run them into my Delta 44's inputs 1 & 2 on the Breakout Box and the Delta 44 is nestled in the #2 PCI slot on my computer.

I use Sound Forge mostly but I also have and use n-Track Studio 24 bit. I record my audio using one of the Multi-track software programs then I convert the .Wav file to .MP3 using dBpowerAmp Music Converter or n-Tracks mp3 decoder. I also use Music Match Jukebox Plus which uses the Franhoufer Decoder technology which is one of the best.

My Mic is definitely not a cheapie. I use a Shure Beta 87A. I run the Mic through the PSR 2000's Mic IN using a Blue Series mic cable to a ROLLS Phantom Power Adaper and outputting a Studio Link cable to the PSR 2000's Mic/Line In. That way I am able to incorporate the Vocal Harmony of the PSR 2000 into the Mix. So there you have my configuration.

What model of Behringer Mixer do you have? I have heard there lower end models are not up to snuff. Unless the new ones coming out have improved in quality.

It sounds more to me like it is something within your computer causing the problem. How is your Volume Play Control configured? Your Wave/Direct Sound should NOT be muted of course. Neither should you have "1 Digital Output Only checked under the Advanced Play Controls. In the Control Panel/Multimedia icon, make sure your "Preferred" device is selected from the drop down list and the "Use only perferred devices" is selected. Under the Advanced Audio Properties make sure the "Audio Hardware Acceleration" is set to 'Full' and the Sample Rate Conversion quality is set to 'Best'. The same goes for the Recording Advanced properties, ie., 'Full' and 'Best'. In the Control Panel/System Properties, make sure in the Device Manager there are no Hardware Conflicts. If you don't see any "yellow flags" anywhere you should be okay.

What is the speed of your Processor, ie., CPU? 500Mhz, 800Mhz, 1.5 GigaHertz? The faster the CPU the better when it comes to recording Audio. How much Memory does the computer have? I recommend 256 MB, preferably more, for Windows 98/SE when using Multimedia applications. PS: There are many potential bottlenecks that can occur when recording Audio using Multi-track software. The Muddy sound you are getting tells me either something Hardware specific is not hooked up right or possibly defective or not up to snuff somewhere along the line or some parameters within Windows 98/SE are not set up right.

My 2 cents. PS: Detective work will eventually sort this out Tony.

Best regards,
Mike

Tony as an overall comment, I would say it is less likely equipment considering what you have and most likely in 2 areas: (considering I have heard many of your tunes fresh out of the box)

1. That it is all being recorded in on a minium # of tracks, thereby losing control in the mix.

2. The final mix, ie., panning reverb and placement of everything in the mix. Unless you are spending a great deal of time on your 9K's mixer ahead of time what you are getting is what the programmer decided was cool going in.
Terry

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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

Hi all,
Thanks for your replies.
I will reply 'in depth' later but am at work at the moment so am a bit restricted for time.

tara for now
Tony

Hi again,

Firstly Gary,
I have burned cd's and played them both in the car and on the hi-fi..the car is Sony and the home unit is technics. Both give off a muddy sound although it is slightly more bearable in the car. I assume this is something to do with the way car stereos are set up (soundwise) to compensate for the compact space?

If you want to hear what I am talking about regarding the 'muddyness' of the mixes you can download.....
http://members.sniffout.com/nsymon/WonderfulDay.mp3
or for comparison http://members.sniffout.com/nsymon/PrettyDresses2.mp3

Mike,
Like all good plans my Lexicon soundcard is going back for sale on ebay!! I should have researched it better (story of my life!) I did realise that there were no drivers for XP but seeing as I have a pc just for music since upgrading other pc's in the house I was happy to reformat the 'old' PC to win 98 to accomodate the Lexicon. However after doing this and setting everything up I also discovered that the Lexicon is incompatible with Athlon processors. SO until I find a replacement card I am using an EDIROL usb interface to connect to my music pc.

The PC is a 1 gig Athlon with 356mb ram 64mb agp graphics (only mention this to show that the graphics card is not interfering with other PCI slot cards such as soundcard) In fact the soundcard was the only pci card in the machine. I took everything out of this pc that was not needed in order to ensure there would be as few conflicts as possible. The only programs installed are music related. ...oh and it has a 40 gig hard drive so plenty of space.

The mixer is a Eurorack UB802... a little dinky thing with 4 stereo in's and two line in / xlr. I liked this because it was so compact and enabled me to utilise the sub outs on the Pro.

Terry,
I have a sneaking suspicion you may be getting near to the truth here! I do usually record the keyboard part/ parts straight to a single track. Just hit record and play. Then I do the vocals on another track and sometimes will do a single instrument on a third track. I have always done this to keep it as simple as possible.

I think it was Don Mason in a post once who said I just play and sing and record the lot straight from the keyboard. Now there is nothing at all wrong with Don's MP3's and on my pc they have always sounded crystal clear so I always assumed that there should be a way to just attach the leads and with the miniumum of fuss record the results.

I know that Scott Yee has recorded straight from his board and into the pc with remarkable sound quality.

I was hoping for a relatively 'easy' solution to this problem but if you are right it looks like I am in for a hard slog learning how to mix properly and may have to start recording track by track. Thanks for your link to the recording tutorial. I am going to print it out and take it to bed with me.

I am off to Brighton tommorow evening (Friday)for a few days holiday and to see Patti Smith perform. I am taking the Laptop with me so I will be able to read any responses in the hotel. However I will not be able to act on any of them until Tuesday when I return (Unless Patti lets me at the piano )

Best wishes to all and thanks for all the help.
Tony



[This message has been edited by Tony W (edited 05-15-2003).]

Tony,
The major drawback to recording everything in one shot, though easier, is the total loss of individual control. It can be done, but then the same amount of work has to go in beforehand with the onboard mixer.

A thought to keep in mind, is that if one shot was the cool thing to do.....pro studios would do it and they don't.
Terry

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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

Hi Tony,

I downloaded both files, and yes they are somewhat muddy. Some of this, I believe, is impedience mismatching between equipment, and sounds like the system or sound card is being overdriven. Also sounds like there's a bit too much high EQ, but that could be my aging ears (my wife said the hearing was the third thing to go!). The keyboard and vocals sound quite crisp at the mid and high end ranges, but there is a hint of distortion at the lower frequencies. The balance between vocal and keyboard are right on the money and you've done a great job putting the songs together.

Cheers,

Gary

Hello Tony,

I'm gonna probably throw you a curve ball here, but here goes.

I don't hear 'muddy'. I hear something else. But first, what I think is muddy. Give this link a listen:

http://www.ketronus.com/sounds/SD1_4.mp3

This is from the Ketron site here in the US and the demo is called "Blusy". (48K bps)

To me, that's muddy.

Okay, now off to Italy and here Ketron's sample of the same demo:

http://www.ketron.it/mp3/sd1/blusy.mp3

Same thing but done up at 128K bps. Much better, wouldn't you agree?

Now give yours a listen to:

http://members.sniffout.com/nsymon/PrettyDresses2.mp3

To me I hear somewhat thin, bright, and some hot sibilants. But don't get me wrong, I like the recording. I like the rag-time piano...Sounds like you are having a lot of fun.

Regardless of what I think, I don't have any suggestions for ya because this is one department I haven't figured out yet either. When I record my keyboard digitally, I end up with recordings that sound like that first Ketron sample. Muddy, subdued, lifeless, BLAH!

Hopefully somebody can help you here and they post their answers for us 'recording-challenged' folks.

mike