Hello

I am strongly considering getting a KN2600 to use along with my PSR2000.

The reasons: back-up instrument, more variety in styles and sounds=more fun, creativity for me and more enjoyment for the audience. Allows me to have the non-convertable Technics styles, and finally and maybe most important(?) two stacked keyboards gives a real PRO look as compared to one. ( I have heard the comment more than once in the past when I had my PSR2000 stacked with my KN1000 that it looks sharp, pro etc. This may be the actual answer to the general publics view of an arranger keyboard looking like a toy. Whereas two of them stacked looks impressive (think of how impressed you were with Paul Schaeffers' set-up, Well, I was anyway)

Now on to my question. Neither keyboard has input jacks so I can't connect the two like I normally would. I am considering getting a Behringer mixer OR would it work if I plugged the output of one into the mic input of the other and be able to use the built in mixers of both, thereby eliminating the need for an external mixer. Both keyboards have a mic input so I could still plug my mic into one of them.

If so, I wonder what would sound better: going out of the L/R, going out of the headphone jack, or the PSR2000 has L/R RCA which the volume knob will not affect the out signal.

I am currently using two JBL Eon 10G2's using my PSR2000's built in mixer and not using an external mixer.

Any input and ideas greatly appreciated as always.

Best

Scott Langholff

[This message has been edited by Scott Langholff (edited 08-29-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Scott Langholff (edited 08-29-2003).]

You'll be a lot happier if you use a small mixer, IMO.
You know, you have a point about the two keyboards looking better.
DonM

"You know, you have a point about the two keyboards looking better.
DonM"

I also remember the other side of the fence. I was playing at a wedding reception using the PSR2000, two JBL Eon 10G2's, X stand and boom mic, and someone said, "it sure doesn't look like much does it". And of course I would have to agree with that. It really didn't look any different than the $100 Casio at WalMart.

The other thing for me, is that I don't sing, so I need all the help I can get to justify getting a lot of money playing out. While I play fine and really only need one good one, it also make me feel more pro and I think that transfers into my playing and does affect the attitude of the audience.

At one time I used to go out with three keyboards only because I got "deals" on them, none of them were general midi and one was really a "beater". I used to use the KN1000, Roland E35 and a Yamaha PSR320(?). I have pictures of it and even though these were not the greatest keyboards except for maybe the KN1000, it had that "pro" kind of look.

I also remember thinking how great it was to be able to walk in with the lightweight PSR2000 and Eons and how quick it was to set up, but, I really do think that two or three keyboard does enter into the psychology of influencing yourself and the crowd.

Scott

That influence is minimized when the sound produced is impressive on it's own. I find that people are more impressed at the LACK of gear it takes to get "my sound".
BTW - I left the kb in the car tonight and played the grand piano (with the LapTop as well)....... $68 bucks in tips. That mentality is SO programed to tip the "player" ....... aparantly not the "owner/operator". From now on .... the Korg stays in the car on Fridays! Nuff said!

PS.... the mic input on the Yamaha can be switched to "line level", so I recommend pluging the Technic INTO the psr. I wouldn't use a HP output. Too hot and, most likely, noisy.

Hi Uncle Dave

I figured this might work. Now the only question left is the issue about the PSR2000 sounding real good only in stereo, and I would presume that the Technics would be the same and whether the mic in would be in mono or stereo. Seems like I saw a thread someplace about that recently, but was not interested at the time, so in one ear and out the other.

Scott

[This message has been edited by Scott Langholff (edited 08-30-2003).]

I found the thread about the PSR2000 mic in being mono. (BTW
I checked the available specs for the Technics KN2600 and it only says mic in.

My guess is that it will be the same as the PSR mono in and the Technics will probably sound much better going out in stereo if they do the effects like Yamaha, which I don't know for sure. I may just have to try it to find out.

Scott

Just get the Behringer mixer. They are so inexpesive and will provide good stereo control. Plus you can easily bring in more sound sources such as a CD player for playing background music between sets.

Scott Langholff



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 08-30-2003).]

Scott, I'm guessing that right now you are not using any additional amplification for the one keyboard. So my consideration would be if your tandem setup would be loud enough for your needs. I still don't understand why you would want to connect the two - why not use each kbd. sound system separately? If you need extra amplification, Peavey, Roland, Behringer and others sell small keboard amps that also have PA/mic mixer apps.

I agree, 2 kbds look better than one (most of the time).

[This message has been edited by cassp (edited 08-30-2003).]

Back in the 90's when I had my night club, I used two keyboards. I had the arranger on top, usually Technics, and a synth underneath. First a DX7, then a V50. Later I added a TX81Z module. I had the bottom keyboard midied to a Yamaha piano module, Each was controlled by a separate volume pedal. That way I had could have piano on call at all times on the bottom. I could bring in strings or organ from the synth, and had the arranger and its sounds on top. Also, until the onboard drums became acceptable, I had the arranger midied to an external drum machine.
Great sound, but not "for the road".
At the time I used two Toa sub bass cabinets and two full-range Peaveys, and a 1000-watt stereo digital power amp for the mains, and another for the subs.
In the rack was a Digitech Vocal Harmonizer, 32-band e.q., Enhancer, Compressor/limiter, two effects units (one for reverb, one for delay). On the other side I had a Roland MV30 for extra midi playback, a Stereo Hi-Fi VCR and a double cassette deck for recording, plus a CD deck for playback during breaks.
In addition I used two full-range powered monitors. Of course the lighting was built-in. You can imagine what all this cost and the all the wires, cables, etc. involved.
Today, the lowly PSR2000/2100, has almost ALL these features incorporated. The Vocal Harmonizer, compressor, effects units, midi player, monitors, modules, drum machine, etc., are all included in the keyboard. It's simply amazing to me.
Throw in a lap-top computer and all the books of lyrics are eliminated, plus many new features that were not even dreamed off 15-20 years ago. MP3s, K******, unlimited styles, Van Basco, . . on and on.
It has become so consolidated that now we are thinking of carrying more gear JUST FOR SHOW!
DonM

Scott,

Though some folks are impressed by a maze of equipment, most of the audiences just want to be entertained. For every person that said how impressive the equipemt looked, there were 200 that didn't have a clue what you were doing or could have cared less.

At one time, before meeting the Three Musketeers (Donny, Dave and Fran C.), I filled the back of my van with a pair or huge Peavey SP5-Gs, two amp heads, two keyboards, large three-tier A-frame stand, vocal processors, bags of wires and cables, mic stand, and other stuff that I felt was necessary. It took 8 trips to the van to unload, and that was using a cart. Now I use the same cart, make one or two trips to the van, set up time is down to 5 to 7 minutes instead of 30 minutes, and the quality of the sound is better.

Last night, while playing at the local Blood & Guts Saloon (American Legion), a number of people said how great the music sounded, how crisp the vocals were and I kept the dancefloor filled for three and a half hours. More stuff for show just don't make good sense. Just being an entertainer is all that's necessary. Ironically, and I'm sure this has happened at one time or another to nearly everyone that entertains for a living, you'll have someone come up to you, watch you playing and singing dozens of songs, then say "Wow! You're the best DJ we've ever had." I used to get upset about this, but now I just smile and say thanks--they don't have a clue.

Stick with your current rig, streamline the system and if you want something flashy, make yourself a high-quality, backlighted sign. They'll love it.

Gary

Gary,
I just listened to your CD. It very good, indeed. I understand while the people like you. Good danceable music.
After all the things you've done to help me and others, I hate to ask, but. . . tell me about the back-lighted sign!
DonM

I also agree that 2 keyboards look better than one. But 3 is too much. I did that one time but I look like a robot in a spaceship. I never use arranger in most of my gig using 2 pro synths but now I'm thinking about using it. But the problem is most good sounding arrangers are bigger and wider than some average synth. Most likely I'll use it on top of my synth. There are some features in the arranger that the synth doesn't have that I want to use. Anybody knows a mini arranger?

Scott, It will be nice if all keyboards, synths and arranger have line input or even a passthru input so we can chain them without using extra device like mixer to set up. I am using a mini line mixer actually, and it's made by Rolls. It's a little bigger than a pack of Marlboro with 3 stereo input and I just velcro it underneath one of my synth. It's pretty handy.

I too used to cart around a multiplicity of keyboards..six of them. two in front two on the left and two on the right..Thought if it's good enough for Rick Wakeman it's good enough for me. Now I just use a KN7000 with a RolandPC300 keyboard mounted tight underneath it. Sounds much better and I don't get back ache any more.
Aint progress wonderful................

Trevor

Don,

Making a backlit sign is pretty easy. All you need a a sheet of frosted lexan or plexiglass and a computer program such as Print Shop or something similar that can make a banner style sign. I prefer using a black or dark, electric blue background and 3-D gold letters. The sign is lighted from the back with small, florescent lights that reflect from Reynolds aluminum foil. I saw one at a gig one night and the person that made it provided me with the details. Not much to it, the cost was less than $30 for materials and it took just a few hours to make. I priced a similar sign at a sign shop and they wanted $1,500 to make the same sign.

I made a small one for the front of my keyboard and it only took 20 minutes on the computer. When I have a chance, I post some photos via Donny.

Cheers,

Gary

I had one like that and I backed over it in my stinkin' car one night! Grrrr.... (idiot)

I've wanted to replace it for a long time now, maybe Gary's plans are the key !

gary just made me a great custom sign that attaches to the front flap of my laptop facing the audience...Totaly Kool!!!!


Thanx Gary

Donny:
Thanks for posting the pic. I'll have to learn how to do that someday.

cassp:
I use two JBL Eon powered speakers. So far I've used the built in mixer in my PSR2000. The JBL's only have one 1/4" input. I was just trying to see if I could get by without a mixer if I switch to two keyboards.

Nigel:
I was thinking of getting a Behringer. They have some nice ones that are under$100. The new ones are set at 24/96 or so. However the boys over at www.syntrillium.com say that they are not digital but analog. This probably won't make any difference to me, except maybe a little if I want to record on my Sound Forge program at 24/96. But, since I probably won't have to use any effects, I would think recording at 16 bits, the same rate that commercial CD's are produced, will be fine.

DonM:
Yes, I know what you mean. I used to have a ridiculous amount of big heavy "stuff" that I don't miss at all. Part of my answer is yes, I expect some people will find two keyboards appealing, but, really the main reason I am thinking about getting the KN2600 is more variety in styles and sounds. To make it more fun and interesting for me and the crowd. Also, Technics is known for their Big Band, jazz, swing styles which I enjoy.

I don't really expect I'll ever need it as a back-up because these things seem to last forever.

Also, I would suspect the KN2600 has a better key feel. While the PSR2000 is fine for me, who knows maybe I'll want to midi them together and use the Technics as the main board.

Gary:
I'm actually more stream lined than you right now. Using a PSR2000, two JBL Eon 10G2's, an X stand, mic boom and stool. I want to keep everything as light and as few pieces as possible, but in this case I don't mind one more piece that only weighs 25 lbs. My PSR is only 23 lbs and the JBL's are only 24 lbs each.

danb:
I'm going to check into that mixer. The size sounds very interesting. How much do they run?

As far as the picture Donny posted for me, at that time with what I had, I needed all three to do what I wanted. Not so anymore with the PSR2000 which I love, but am wanting a new toy. So, for my purposes I think the KN2600 is certainly worth a 45 day trial period at the least.

Thanx for all the input.

Scott Langholff

[This message has been edited by Scott Langholff (edited 08-31-2003).]

Also was wondering about using Y adaptors, but as I understand it there is some loss of volume doing that. But maybe it would be ok, what do you think Uncle Dave and all?

Scott

Rolls Minimix MX28. MusiciansFriend is selling it for $79, $69 for the blemished one. The good thing about this is you can place it in front of you within your reach. I tried Behringer before but I don't know where to put it there's no space on top of my keyboard. No, the Y adapter is no good.

Dan

Visit the website below; http://www.rolls.com/new/frame2.html

Scott ... use the XLR as a line input for one kb, and the 1/4 inch for the other. No mixer needed !

You can even use a stereo cable to access the 1/4 inch jack. It will blend both signals into mono and you still have the XLR as a third channel!

Y cables might work. They might not. If the levels of the keyboards are widely different then your relative volume management becomes difficult.

The same problem may occur using the XLR and jack inputs of the same input channel.

Get a small mixer. Velcro it to the upper keyboard. Job done.

Uncle Dave:"You can even use a stereo cable to access the 1/4 inch jack. It will blend both signals into mono and you still have the XLR as a third channel!"

I don't know if I know exactly what you mean. Are you saying to use a stereo Y adaptor put both board into the 1/4" and still have the XLR free for something else?

I like your idea of using the 1/4" and XLR and need no mixer.

danb: I like this idea of a small mixer too. I need to check that site out when I have time today. I kept wondering where to put the Behringer also.

Thanx for the ideas.

Scott

Scott,
Yes - the 1/4 inch jack is a TRS configuration, and will accept two signals. Use a Stereo plug that has two 1/4" FEMALE jacks for you to plug the 2 kb's into. This leaves the XLR open.
Another way is to simply use the XLR(as a LINE in) and the 1/4" as a second line in. This gives you separate volume control of each signal, and no chance of unbalanced kbs....unless you MAKE them that way !

Thanx Uncle Dave

I appreciate your suggestions. I like your idea if it works out, and I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't.

The only thing I am wondering about is, it seems to me in the past when I traveled with with three keyboards, I tried Y adaptors and it seems like there is some power loss, I don't think any tone loss, but if that is the case when I try it and the volume controls on the keyboards and/or the speakers will off-set this, then so what, right?

Although I've been in music retail since 1976, the things we talk about here was not my area of expertise, not really coming into contact with a lot of this stuff. So, the ideas really help. I would rather check with you guys that have been doing this with a known method rather than try something and damage something.

Scott

Scott,
Using the two channels should not produce any volume loss, but the single, stereo jack MAY. It's not certain to be a problem, but the two other channels have independant volume pots ..... you'll have NO trouble if you go that route.

Having read UD's post about using a TRS jack I was going to launch into a diatribe about the misuse of balanced inputs.... but having found what little information there is out there on the JBL mini-mixer built into to the EONs then I see that the TRS jack in this instance is a dual-input mixer channel and that indeed he is correct!

But I'd still get a small mixer!

Unless you need tone controls....there is no need for one !

"Unless you need tone controls....there is no need for one !"

I suppose so.... but I'd still have misgivings about level matching, however.

Also, have I missed something? Are we talking about connecting the keyboard in stereo, and if so do the "mixerless" options allow stereo "mixing"?

Hi MacAllcock

Yes, it would be stereo. I have two JBL speaker cabinets.

The PRS2000 has a built in mixer and the output is L and R. The built in mixer has variable settings for hrz (?) you know what I mean. Besides having five settings for balance. There's also a way to save a couple setting in memory and several preset mixer settings.

Thanx

Scott

[This message has been edited by Scott Langholff (edited 09-05-2003).]

Forget "misgivings" and try PRACTICAL APPLICATION ! It'll work. Just plug it in and you're set to go !

Uncle Dave

Thanx. It looks like you have saved me some money, and one less thing to carry.

We all have two ears and one mouth. So I figure its best to do twice as much listening and half as much talking.

Thanx all you guys for your expert input.

Scott Langholff

So glad it fits your purpose ! It's nice when the answer doesn't cost money !

Well done folks. Glad it works!!