I shall show my ignorance on keyboards and ask the question: Just what is the difference between a "pro" keyboard and a "non-pro" keyboard? Is it that one has an arranger and the other doesn't or is it the price or whether a pro is using it? I read the discussions on the two, but I just fail to see what the difference is. Can anyone explain this in layman's terms?

Peter

A pro keyboard is one that a person raises 2 or more children with the proceeds.

The snobery has always come in over the auto accmp. feature of arrangers as I have heard it. How is that different from having 4 beer drinking weed smokers standing behind someone on stage,,,,that's auto accmp.....isn't it? Except my accmp. doesn't have the bad habits and quite after 2 years of practice.




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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

Pro is short for professional as used here. Professional means one that has expert skill in his or her endeavor. Be it a doctor, musician or what ever. In other words one who has attained proficiency in what he does. There are other definitions of course but the question here is what is the difference between a pro keyboard and a non-pro keyboard. Other than a company adding the letters PRO to one of their products to play to the purchasers ego and or market share I would like to offer my thoughts. hopefully in laymen's terms. Just as people are labeled pro or professional in the sense of attaining proficiency, so also with equipment. Take for instance the tools of a mechanic or tradesman of any profession, other than the wood butchers or alley mechanics and such, these indicate the real professionals in there trade. Their tools are always first class, tools that they can work with day after day with little trouble and that can produce quality work results. Accurate. Long lasting and are a pleasure to work with. With these thoughts in mind, like professional people, professional keyboards are the ones that have proven to have attained proficiency in what they do. Proficiency in the operating system for the task it performs. Pleasure to use. Reliability. The proficiency to give the people it is designed to please to experience to finest sounds that can be sampled, digitized and heard by the human ear. Last but not least is the ability to allow the performer to attain these goals with ease and pride in his many years of practice towards this end. Of course there will always be those who are willing to sacrifice these qualities to other gods. The god of weight. The god of cheapness or the god of good-enough, or, brand is another god and so it goes. That is how I see it and I am sure others have different spectacles to view this with. Oh, I almost forgot, the god of ignorance.

From the thoughts of Grandpa Doug

Well, I have to fess up to having had a little of that arranger-snobbery myself a couple of months ago. I'm an accordionist and really used to have a hard time with keyboardists that picked up the instrument and would play only the right hand. Don't ask me why, but it drove me bonkers! I would start seeing prominent bands with "an Accordionist" who would rest their left hand in the bass strap - without even putting fingers on the bass keys!

I started looking into arrangers because, honestly, I can make a lot more money as a one-man-band than I ever could with a drummer and guitarist. I did that gig in high school and college and it was no fun. Hard to practice, almost never could all agree on what songs to play and at what tempo, etc. So an arranger looked like the perfect fit for me.

When I went to look at some of the Ketron arrangers about a year ago (I looked at the MS40 and X4 back then) I could tell the guy thought I was another in a long line of wannabe accordionists. He started going on and on about how the Foo Fighters just ordered five accordions from him and that they didn't have a clue how to play them, etc. He said that a lot of keyboardists were coming in to buy accordions just for the on-stage effect.

Well, I tried the arranger out with a really nice Bugari accordion he had and he just stopped me and said "Man, you can play!" I asked what he meant and he said that arrangers were for people that couldn't play.

Well, his comments, along with others I received on an accordion-only BBS started to form my opinion that arrangers are for people who can't really play. I never really paralleled my thoughts about the accordion with those that you are discussing here about keyboardists, but I see the similarity. The great PRO keyboardists probably think arrangers are for people that play a single note at a time on the right hand and let the arranger play all of the intros, chords, fills, and endings.

Well, this site opened my eyes to what can be done with an arranger. I have checked out every web page displayed in profiles here and am floored by the talent here. The stuff you guys are doing is very impressive and I'd pay to see it. I am still getting over that "they can't play" comment and hope to purchase an arranger in the next month.

I always end up thinking that even when I get my XD3 I'll still want to play Dizzy Fingers on my acoustic accordion just to "show them", so I obviously still have some growing to do.

The bottom line is ignorance. So many musicians do not have a clue as to what an arranger keyboard is and does. They only know little Casios, and the much-advertised Synths. As far as I'm concerned it can stay that way. There are already enough singles around here.
DonM

When the word 'ignorance' is used in its true sense i.e. 'not knowing' I totally agree.
How many times have we all heard someone say that they couldn't 'stand' football,jazz,classical,basketball,cricket,baseball etc.... when what they really mean is that they can't UNDERstand.!

Life is too short not to make use of arrangers which reduce the amount of work you have to practice.practice,practice even if you feel that perhaps you are cheating a little bit!
I know that my mother would have welcomed the use of a 'washing machine' instead of the boilers and tubs she had
I know that I get a lot more pleasure out of making music nowadays because the noises I make sound more professional than I am
cheers
Eddie Johnson

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Eddie from Rotherham
www.yamahakeyboards.info

my mail is virus-free thanks to Norton Antivirus2002


[This message has been edited by eddiefromrotherham (edited 04-25-2003).]

[This message has been edited by eddiefromrotherham (edited 04-25-2003).]

The problem I have always had with arrangers personally is the quality and feel of the keys. I just don't like those little cheap plastic keys. They break too easily and wear out in no time at all, especially if you use it every night. Example: Uncle Daves last arranger(and the one before it)...How long did he have it?
I agree that they sound alot better these days, but if you are going to rely on it night after night, its just not good enough. I have slammed arrangers before on this forum but Im not intentionally slamming now. Im just stateing my experience. When I worked in the studio, every once in a while we'd get a musician that uses an arranger keyboard who someone thought was very good. We'd get them into the studio to record and we would end up finding that most (not all) were just these 1 finger wonders with an arranger keyboard. Im not putting them down, but it wasn't what we were looking for. Im not going to invest in a musician who uses default (or even purchased) arrangements as the body of their songs. Nothing against arranger keyboard players, it was about marketability and originality. If you didn't write it(or even play it), why would you want to record it? I don't even like sampling for that reason. I can't release a preset arrangement. period. That is why many arranger keyboardist have such a hard time getting their music released.
Back to my first point, I think when Yamaha calls a keyboard a "home" keyboard, it has more to do with quality and durability of the keyboard than sounds, especially recently. If I was making a living playing, I would want something that I can rely on night after night. Something that I could use for several years not months. And if I were making a living doing that then it would be worth the higher cost to buy a "professional" keyboard, one that was made to take a beating night after night. I think of it as an investment in yourself as a musician, one that would pay for itself in time.

It all good,
DudeManCentral

DMC,
Right now I own three different arrangers (Yamaha 9000 pro, Ketron SD1 and Roland VA7); in the past I have also owned several synthesizers and workstations (Yamaha DX7 I and II, SY77 and SY99, Roland D50, D70 and JD880, Korg M1 and T3, Kurzweil K1200).
Among the arrangers I own presently one (the Yamaha 9000 pro) would no doubt fullfill all your requirements of reliability, resistance, etc. In my opinion it's the sturdiest keyboard I have ever owned and I am not talking just of the external appearance.
If you can find one to try out, maybe it will change your opinion about arranger keyboards being little flimsy toys, not reliable for a professional work, night after night.
Another good thing is that, even if you don't use the arranger section, it would still be a keyboard worth having in a studio, for its excellent sounds and DSP.

[This message has been edited by Dreamer (edited 04-25-2003).]

Dreamer is right.. That 9000 Pro is very well built. Yamaha basically used the undercasing, and redisign of the EX-5 when making the 9000 Pro. Plus the 9000 pro has the same keybed (great synth action).. Much better than some arrangers.. Also keep in mind that some synths have fairly cheap keys as well.. I haven't talked to one person who owns the Triton Le that likes the keys.. I've heard many complaints on the Karma's keybed too. So crappy keys applies to both synths and arrangers..

Squeak