As a Yamaha 9000 Pro user and veteran player, I agree with Dreamer's statements totally. The functionality and pro-usefulness of the 9000 Pro is what earned it the "pro" name. My keyboard has been fully expanded up to 208 notes of polyphony, which is actually a rarity in the professional boards. That plus it's six assignable audio outputs makes it especially useful in the studio when laying down sequence tracks. Before the 9000 Pro I only played heavy Kurzweils on stage, but they now rest comfortably at home and the 9000 Pro is my primary stage instrument.

But beyond all that, these days so much so-called music is done with programs like Acid and Fruity Loops which require no musical skill at all, yet produce hit records. Arranger keyboards can do similar things but actually require the input of a musician to work. And certainly if you go beyond the preset patterns into your own realms of original arrangements then today's pro arrangers are every bit as expressive and professionally-useful as any other keyboard on the market bar none. You really owe it to yourself to learn more about them.

Well, it sounds to me like any keyboard can be a "pro" keyboard if it doesn't have an arranger and you have a live band backing you up when you play. Sounds very narrow minded and old fashion to me! Seems like some people refuse to enter the 21st Century. Of course, there have always been people who refuse to recognize or utilize new technology that infringes on their egos. I suppose some of them even consider themselves musicians. Like the dinosaurs, these old, set-in-their-ways people will eventually become extinct for refusing to adapt. IMHO, I think everyone who enjoys what they are playing and who's audience enjoys what they hear, is a "pro" and so is their keyboard, arranger or not.

Peter

"Professional" comes from the word Profession, which is what one does to make a living. Arrangers have made my living almost since they were first invented. I've never had one fail to get me through the night--250-300 jobs a year.
I do try to change keyboards once a year, but mostly for tax purposes. The PSR2000 is probably the least sturdy of all I've had, but even it has lasted me 18 months now, and is showing no signs of letting me down.
If I got drunk on the job every night, lost control and hammered it as hard as I could, it wouldn't last long though. (Now don't get excited, I'm not accusing anyone of doing that, but I do know that it's done.)
I don't abuse it or misuse it because I can't afford to be without it!
Don

I've also heard other musicians talk and frown upon solo Arranger KeyBoard players due to the fact that it puts many players out of work. Because you alone can take the place of a whole band, rendering you a "sellout of sorts".

I wonder how some of the "purests" feel about DJ's handling the music in the bars for young people to dance to rather than the bars having a live "professional" band. Seems to me the young people don't care where the music comes from as long as it's music they like. Maybe we should all take a hint from that.

Peter

Dreamer and squeak_D,
Yeah, I will admit that I probably know the least about the 9000pro(and Tyros). But they sound great. I do understand why you all like them. I learned on and prefer the feel of a standard piano, so I agree that many "pro" synth also have terrible keys as well..good point. Another thing about many "pro" keyboards (especially older Yamaha) was the learning curve. They were very hard to control on the fly and not very intuitive when it came to just about anything(of course they could do everything, but you needed a PHD to figure it out). Thats what appeals to me about arrangers, they can do so much rather easily. Does anyone here remember the old midi implementation charts? Even if you knew midi in-and-out, many were incredibly difficult to work with. I used to study a particular instruments implementation chart for days before I even would touch the keyboard. Many musicians didn't even know how to work their own instument.
I used to write sysex changes(hell, even note data and control changes) out by hand in a text editor, so you needed to really know the keyboard, the keyboards midi implementaion chart, and the sysex well...Now a days there are synth specific editors that do all that for you... Thats why in the past, Ive been so hard on arranger players. With a sequencer and a good synth specific editor it so easy to write your own stuff, especially "styles" when you can drag and drop sections, notes, just about anything into where ever you need them. I have literally thrown songs together in a matter of minutes. Mind you not really complicated songs, but none-the-less a song AND each section/phrase can be completely different so people dont have to listen to the same exact phrase/arrangement over and over. Its really noticable when I as a listener I dont really care for a particular phrase and I hear it over and over again exactly the same way. ughhh, I HATE that. Also completely unique beginnings and endings....
DONT USE PRESETS!

Good topic,
DudeManCentral


[This message has been edited by DMC (edited 04-25-2003).]

Catsailor and DomM,

Please dont take it like Im insulting you. Im not saying that only professionals use "pro" keyboards. Im just using the terminology of the manufactures. Of course, if you are making a living doing it you are a professional(by definition).The two are not connected. When I say "pro" keyboard or "home" keyboard, Im referring to the product line not the users. I will say that many arranger keyboardist are very sensitive about this. Thats why I put the terms in parenthesis, showing that its not my words. You assume alot of crap about me just because I dont agree with you I.E Old, out of touch with modern equipment etc. Yeah, Im older and I don't perform live every night. I have a degree in music and played in the Jazz band at Michigan State. I have played in various bands over the years and have played quite a few gigs. I have written hundreds of songs of my own and have written thousands of songs out in midi for artists we were recording, that was MY profession for a long time. We used to write out all the artists songs in midi before we recorded them. It made it much easier and more accurate when we went to laying down the individual tracks and was much easier than using a click track for the musicians to follow. Plus once we were finished, we were able to print out sheet music much easier for publishing purposes.

Peace,
DudeManCentral

PS. Many of you may wonder why I keep up with this "General Arranger Keyboard Forum" when I don't even play one. Its because this site has so many true professionals. I respect you all more than you seem to know.

[This message has been edited by DMC (edited 04-25-2003).]

I wasn't taking offense, but thanks for worrying about it!
I played trumpet in high school and college (Oklahoma State University). It's much easier to find a job playing keyboard than trumpet!
DonM

As was said in a recent post, all you have to do is turn off the accompaniment to get a regular keyboard. Now what's the difference? Just cover up 'PSR' with a label marked 'Pro' and who's to know?. I'm with Accordianist. I can still play Dizzy Fingers (with a bit of practice) but it's also nice to have a bit of rhythm in the background. Same with Tico Tico (trying to sound like Ethel Smith for those who remember). And it's not only arrangers that are expensive. If I had to replace my clarinets I'm looking at US$2000 or more.

Bryan

The discussion related to buying a keyboard for someone just starting out, not a top end pro board. Personally, I think such a keyboard is absurdly INexpensive. Buying a nice PSR-630/730 or 640/740 used on EBAY would, after you consider what you would later get for it, say 2 or 3 years down the road when you'd sell it yourself and move up to something better, be very inexpensive. I'd say 200 or $300 AT MOST. Considering, with built in speakers, that you really wouldn't need anything else for those first years, this is absurdly cheap for such a fun activity. On a "per hour" basis, for anyone actually using their instrument (I play a couple of hours many days a week) the actual "cost" is probably 10 cents an hour, or something absurd like that. One doesn't need a PSR-2000 to start out!