Hi All
Just paid my weekly visit to the Lionstracs site and it now shows an official base in the UK.
In addition the site also mentions that it is hoping to make its first public appearance of the Mediastation during September 2007.
As the Pakefield Keyboard Festival is in September, hopefully this is where it will be showcased, and therefore should mean that anyone attending the Festival will be able to compare it with all the other manufactures products, (Including the Big 3) thus finally answering the question as to how it compares.
Here is the link to the UK site http://lionstracs.co.uk
Looks like the Autumn (Fall) in the UK is going to be exciting.

Bill

Maybe, if UK laws are different to Italian ones with respect to copyright infringement, the sound developers of the UK can get a writ served... No doubt Dom will have copies of the GIGA Tyros2 disks on hand for evidence....

At the very least, every professional sound designer in the UK ought to show up and 'explain' their position to him!

I would certainly like to be a fly on the wall when the Tyros2 Yamaha people have a chance at confronting him directly...

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 07-11-2007).]

a lot of bragging about how good and "professional" this board is over "plastic home keyboards"... well have a listen to this.. you be the judge
http://lionstracs.co.uk/product_index.aspx

(click on the "HERE" link for the demo"...

My Casio SA20 bells sounds better .
A lots of Gigas for ...nothing.
dANIEL
PS: Good luck Lionstracs on UK!

[This message has been edited by dani_76_es (edited 07-11-2007).]

[This message has been edited by dani_76_es (edited 07-11-2007).]

......and there lies the fatal flaw in this product.....

Diki, you're really starting to get missional on this issue. Worse, personal. We don't even know for sure if anything illegal is going on, we're not experts on international copyright law. If it is, let it get sorted out in the courts. Dom will have plenty of co-defendants, including the "big three". If he's going to be prosecuted for something, it should be for putting up that awful demo.

Seriously, IMO, Dom needs to get more "musical" people involved in his operation and shift the emphasis from engineering and technology to MUSIC. Hiring the local kid from the high school jazz band to do your demos is not going to cut it.

How would I rate the MS at this stage of it's development? Based soley on what I've read, probably not quite ready for prime time. But I think we have to first acknowledge that it's a niche keyboard and at this juncture, not a real bona fide competitor (much less threat) to the "big three". I think that it is an (important) experiment in the application of cutting-edge (but existing) technology to the keyboard industry. I think that it is more than an arranger, more than a synth, more than a workstation, as they are presently defined. I also think that it is probably the most logical next step in the evolution of keyboard technology. At the same time, I think it represents more of an assembly process, a clever combining of existing technologies, rather than a bold new approach. It's primary assets are upgradability and expandability.

The MiniMoog was musical. The DX7 was musical. The Hammond organ was musical. At this stage, the MediaStation is not yet "musical". Only then will it attract any reasonable market share. JMO.

chas

[This message has been edited by cgiles (edited 07-12-2007).]

I have read a bit further on the UK site, and it looks like they will be bringing out a 76 note version of the Mediastation at the same price point as the Korg PA800 and Ketron SD5, (Typically a third less then the TOTL Arrangers from the Big 3) which should really ruffle feathers, as it means that you can add a couple of High Quality VSTs for the same price of a TOTL Arranger.
Hopefully it will appear at Pakefield, allowing real players to make the decision on its capabilities.
Enjoy whatever you play

Bill

I can't help but wonder if this issue with the Mediastation is more personal than anything else.

I wonder how 'personal' it is to the sound designers and manufacturers of the arrangers that Dom will HAVE to clone to get any sales at all, given the utter failure of the MS without piracy..?

I have nothing personal about the issue at all. I have never net Dom, never played an MS, never met in person anyone from Lionstracs.

But how the stink of this behavior doesn't register with SOME of you (and it does appear more like the supporters of this piracy are fewer and fewer, but vocal) confounds me.

This is simply a case of a 'work for hire' - the hugely expensive task of going out and actually RECORDING pianos, strings, saxes, the myriad of sounds in a TOTL arranger, then assembling the patches from those hugely expensive recordings (anyone is welcome to try this if they doubt how difficult and expensive it is!) - being 'stolen' by a competitor looking for an unfair advantage.

Note, also, that Lionstracs could go out and ask Yamaha if they could license their sounds. Of course, you can imagine Yamaha's reply! Secondly (and I suggested this a LONG time ago), Dom could license a collection of the better VSTi's and legitimate GIGA collections (Colossus, maybe), and build a BETTER than T2 soundset, and have HIS styles developed for that. BUT NOOOOO........

Dom's answer to the problem is to clone his competitor's sounds AND styles, despite the action being in a VERY grey legal area, and offering this as the solution to the problem of the MS being unusable (as an arranger) in it's factory state.

And look, guys, just because this MIGHT exist in a grey area, does it feel right to you? Does this feel 'fair' to Yamaha? Does this feel 'fair' to the other companies that stand to lose their expensive, legitimate soundsets (THEY sure as hell didn't get their sounds the easy way, by stealing their competitors'!)?

No, to me, and many here at SZ, this stinks of someone exploiting a chink in the law that will soon be plugged.

Remember this, all of you with MP3's not taken from CD's you own. Once upon a time, in a galaxy far, far away, everyone started trading these, and giving them away for free like bubblegum cards. 'Why should we worry about if it is 'legal' or not?' they said. THEN the law got changed (or enforced), and now you can't use these without running the risk of prosecution. Not to mention the devastation to the record industry and it's employees (us!). You ever wonder WHY there is so little good new music out there? How about they can't afford to develop it like they used to?

Apply these actions to the arranger industry, and see what new development speed slows to. If it were YOU that were in charge of green-lighting a six or seven figure investment for YOUR company, that you knew would be pirated by your competition as soon as it hit the streets, would you think twice (or three times, or not do it at all!) about making that commitment?

Either ALL intellectual property deserves equal protection, or NONE of it does. You can't just pick and choose. Because intellectual property is a concept, not it's individual components. If YOUR hit tune, or YOUR brilliant software deserves protection from piracy (they were the result of YOUR labors and investment), so does Yamaha's soundset.

As I said, this is nothing personal. You don't need to know the thief that stole into your neighbor's house and stole his stuff to hate him for for what he did. Or what right have you to hate him when he steals YOUR stuff?

MUCH ADO ABOUT NOTHING

The Dx7 did so many things that were revolutionary but
it, to my ears, was not fully musical. When you got
above or below the middle octaves, it sounded very out
of tune. In fact, in those days when I was stricly sax and
a leader i wouldn't hire a kb player who used a dx7. I also
hated playing with guys who used the early Kurzweils
with its overrated piano sound, which was to my ears
overbright, hard and brittle. Speaking of overrated, these
Bose column systems are all that imo..

Ok, here I am hijacking the thread...
so sorry..as you were...OK the Mediastation is the topic..
it seems to me that its major selling
points are that it weighs a ton and therefore is not a
"plastic toy"..so if you carry it around you will not likely
break it so easily..your back will go into spasm instead.
and don't drop it on your toe! I guess my plastic Korg is35
has lasted 7 yrs without a problem, and I don't use any
case for it, just put it under my arm..but i'm sure it will
only last a few years more, whereas the Mediastation
will last for decades, and will always be up-to-date..yes,
folks, it's the end of progress..this here kb means nothing
will ever be able to improve on it..it's open-ended, right?
that's the other big selling point--but I think maybe even
the technology of theft (if Diki is correct) will be subject
to yet-undreamed of technological advancement, hmmm?

------------------
Miami Mo

Sounds personal to me especially when the facts are being misrepresented and mischaracterized.

Now that the shoe is on the other foot we are supposed to feel bad for the original samplers?


One of the biggest problems Dom has is public relations and marketing.

Yes some of us do understand the concept of the mediastation. Integration of studio and live performance and a lasting hardware product is the order of the day. It is not what the manufacturer makes the keyboard but what the skilled and professional electronic musician makes the keyboard. To this end, they need to get professional demos done. Use musicians who know how to play and to use electronic keyboards. The mediastation may be a different keyboard from the other manufacturers but when it comes to demos, the mediastation needs to do like the others and get a well skilled demonstrator and have that person play like no one can.

I am sure in the right hands, the T2 and other TOTL arrangers can sound bad.

The other issue Dom needs to deal with (and this is not being said to make him feel bad), but Dom should not be posting to the Synth zone.
I can understand that English is not his first language but the expressions and the tones of some of his posts would lead some persons with a not so good feeling. And it appears that some persons have a personal dislike for him and his product.

Also because he is the major developer, he tends to focus more on the technical aspect of the mediastation rather than the music making potion.


And these 2 points are linked together. You have to have a good music demo and you have to have a person to talk about and explain the musical features of the mediastation. That person would have to do some damage control because some of the posters on the synth zone have given your product a bad rap.

Although the concept of the keyboard is different from the others, people still need to be spoon fed or enticed or persuaded or what ever term you want to use in to buying your product. To most people, they are not concern with how you get there (being a superior musical product), but as long as you get there.

I REALLY don't want to pursue the sampling issue on every thread about MS. There are already threads dealing with that issue that you can post on.

You mean "I am sure in the WRONG hands, the T2 and other TOTL arrangers can sound bad" of course.

Yet, I pretty much agree with most of what you've said.

Let's not forget that we tend to get defensive when we're constantly being criticized. There are enough posts to prove that. While some just brush it off, others don't. Yet there are those that do not grant Dom that right as they play on his defensiveness. How would you react if you were constantly the target of criticism.

Let's also look at the large number of posts where other brands and models are being criticized. Yet, you don't hear a single word from the makers. Does that make them better than Dom in terms of marketing their products, customer service or is it because they just don't give a hoot whether you want something improved, changed or added. So far Roland hasn't responded to Diki's lament on the Chord Sequencer. I'd be really pissed at Roland if I were Diki and not at Dom. So far Yamaha hasn't come out with a 76-key arranger eventhough the vast amount of posts that cry out for one. In more ways than one Dom does actually listen to what MS users want but he doesn't owe non-MS users a single thing.

As for the legal or illegal copying...let's not play hanging judge, okay?

JMHO

Taike

Taike, go and have a browse through the Lionstracts web site...

All over the site you read how they brag that the MS is so superior over all the other arrangers out there. (no other brands brag to this extent)

it has the specs on paper to prove its superiority but music is what u hear and what u hear is not superior to "home plastic keyboards".

go and read the yamaha / roland / korg / ketron sites... sure they all have their bragging points on their machines which they are so rightful for becuase their products are proven quality.

I know what you're getting at, Nick, but it's still Dom's site. He can pretty much post there whatever he wants.

It doesn't bother me in the least. Why should it bother anyone?

Taike

[This message has been edited by Taike (edited 07-13-2007).]

now i realize why i jumped on the DX7 reference, which
led me into the Kurzweil reference, which led me into
the Bose reference..and then I caught myself and went
back to topic...(unfortunately because maybe my hijack was
more interesting lol)

it's because the topic has been DONE TO DEATH. no wonder
Nigel interjected..

Unlike yours, Mo ("What features do you love on your KB"; "Are arranger players putting other musicians out of work"; real ground-breakers, those).

just sayin'


chas



[This message has been edited by cgiles (edited 07-13-2007).]

say what u wanna say chas, no problemo..

hey chas, just noticed you participated in my threads that
you disparaged as non-groundbreaking. thanks for that
favor, must have been boring, huh? i wasn't trying to break new ground, just trying to get some learning and offer some.
i've seen a lot of posts about what kb's people like, as you
have, but i haven't seen much (in my time here at least) as
far as a thread which addresses favorite features.. thought
that hearing from SZ folks about that might help me..also
my post re arrangers putting musicians out of work was
a speciific branchoff from a more generalized thread that
was being discussed and I wanted to get some more light
on that specific part of it from a new angle.
as far as MS, it's the same pro/con arguments over and
over from most of us who are not that familiar with it
hands-on. but if you want to spend your time searching
for supposed hypocrisy in my replies and then calling me
out on them, i guess you have your reasons, so be it.

------------------
Miami Mo

I am getting somewhat fed up with a couple of things.

Firstly, anyone who has anything negative to say about the MS, from listening to demos, official or otherwise, is immediately branded as someone that doesn't 'get' what an 'open' keyboard is all about. Nothing could be further from the truth. I (and probably a LOT of detractors) know EXACTLY what an 'open' keyboard is all about. The truth is, it is nothing more than a hardware, keyboard encased version of what we have been using for many years now... A computer. Running multiple simultaneous audio programs. There is absolutely nothing 'groundbreaking' about it whatsoever, other than the fact that it is in a keyboard form, and integration is tight between the hardware and software (which CAN be achieved in a computer).

It is possible that we are ALL thought of, here at SZ, as nothing more than retirees with Casio's and cheap PSR's (or Roland's or Korg's, don't get your dander up ) who barely understand the difference between MIDI and audio. You would think so from the 'you don't get it' comments about the MS. Rubbish! There is a quite sophisticated and knowledgeable base of posters here, who MUST be getting tee'd off at the constant harping about how dumb we are...!

The mistake comes from thinking that just because all the different elements have been assembled in a case with a keyboard stuck on it, it MUST be something new. IT ISN'T. I've been using ALL the different components (DAW, VST's, GIGA streaming, MP3 playback, audio time compression, software arrangers, etc., etc.) for years now. So have MANY of the posters here.

"Open' is being used as a mantra for those that think it must be better, because it is different. Open DOES have it's advantages, flexibility being the primary one. But a 'closed' system has many advantages, too... Chief of which (especially for arranger operation) is the VERY tight integration between styles and sounds. The styles are developed for the specific soundset of the arranger. That's what makes it sound so good. Translated styles, as hard as they may be tweaked, rarely, if ever, sound better on a non-native arranger. They can still sound good, yes, maybe even better than some of the built-in styles of the destination arranger, but rarely do they ever sound better than the arranger they come from.

So, 'open' or 'closed', they both have their strengths. But it IS possible to 'get it' and still realize that 'open' has it's problems. Chief of which, for Dom, is the fact that he can't afford to develop sounds and styles for the arranger section of this 'open' keyboard. So he steals them. Pure and simple.

And sadly, the very people that keep telling us we don't 'get it' are the very ones that fail to recognize the difference between sampling an acoustic instrument, or out of production synth, and sampling an in-production arranger (whose entire soundset WAS developed legally) so their unsuccessful product can salvage itself in the arranger market.

The differences between sampling and re-sampling have been explained in detail by Irishacts' James, and there appears to be NO wiggle room on this issue. Be careful, especially US readers, where intellectual property still IS protected to a far greater degree than other countries. MP3 sharing always WAS illegal, even during the Napster days. It just wasn't enforced quickly enough. But you ARE still liable for them if ever discovered. The same will apply to re-sampled soundsets, once the law gets off it's fat a$$! That hefty investment in an MS might not seem like such a good idea if you are forced to go back to Dom's soundset...
-----------------------------------------------
The second thing I'm ticked off at....?

Attacking the messenger, NOT the message. If the only ammunition you can come up with to refute the points that many of us have made on this issue is to ask us whether we are blameless first, before we can criticize a corporation for piracy, well, that, in my apparently 'arrogant' opinion, is simply side-stepping the issue.

If we have ALL got to be saints before we can expect ANY ethical behavior from our corporations, and even, dare I say it, our governments, well, we are in for some very tough times...!

But who knows, maybe that is why things ARE so messed up lately... I've got some illegal MP3's on my computer, so it's OK for my government to invade another country... I'M not perfect, why should they be?

Absurd, isn't it? But that's what our detractors are saying, in short. So get off MY case, and try to figure out whether what Dom is doing IS unethical (whether the law has caught up or not).

Sorry Mo, I just hijacked YOUR putdown and kept it going. We all like to think that OUR posts are the MOST clever, the MOST interesting, and sometimes get a little miffed when others don't share those feelings. The best evidence of that is when we keep "bumping" our own posts trying to keep them alive. Sound familiar?

chas

I think 'arrogance' is ignoring Nigel's request to drop this whole "sampling" issue.

Chas, you're presuming people post in order to be thought clever or interesting. Perhaps you got that impression of me somehow..but it is not what motivates me to post-

the only motivation I have is to learn, and/or to advise, as payback for all the great advice I have received on SZ. I bump a post occasionally not because my ego is let down from a meager response, but because I am disappointed that i didn't get the information I hoped to receive, and
hope i can stimulate some more input before the post drops away and disappears.

Perhaps you got the mistaken notion of my intentions due to the fact that some of my posts might by coincidence appear to actually be clever and/or interesting? Well, if so, that's very flattering, thanks for the compliment. But
for you to assume that's what i'm about without knowing
me displays extreme prejudice. Please desist.

------------------
Miami Mo

as long as i'm stuck here, hoisted by my own petard of
declaring the ongoing MS arguments a bore..

I've had my differences with Diki, but in all I have read I
have not seen one rational logical on-the-mark rebuttal
of the core of his argument. I'm not someone with the
technical sophistication of Diki or his opponents in this
debate, so I'm really not in any position to judge the MS
except to deflate the pretensions of the "non-plastic"
and "the future" aspects of the PR..for all I know i could
try this kb and become madly in love with it. I don't know
a vst from a pcb...but the concept of intellectual property
is what he is talking about, and I have not seen anyone
address his stance on this with any adequacy, and I can
understand his frustration with that, and his strident
reaction is not the issue. The issue is the issue.



------------------
Miami Mo

Wish I was that succinct...

Thanks, Mo.

In respect of Nigel�s thinking that the sampling issue has been talked about in other threads, I will not try to explain the issue again. I would only say that to say that
�And sadly, the very people that keep telling us we don't 'get it' are the very ones that fail to recognize the difference between sampling an acoustic instrument,
or out of production synth, and sampling an in-production arranger (whose entire soundset WAS developed legally) so their unsuccessful product can salvage
itself in the arranger market� only goes to show again that the detractors obviously do not get the point on sampling and resampling that was being made. It is not the �definition� and difference of what sampling and resampling is that was the issue (James correctly explained that in another thread). But the point that was being made was the �conceptual moral� similarities between sampling and resampling.
If that can not be understood, I will leave it alone.

If you research the term �unclean hands�, it would give some readers a greater understanding of the broader issues.

Secondly, to say that �I've been using ALL the different components (DAW, VST's, GIGA streaming, MP3 playback, audio time compression, software arrangers, etc.,
etc.) for years now. So have MANY of the posters here" to demonstrate that they understand what the mediastation is, only goes to prove the opposite. That is like saying I have loops on my computer so why do I need loops on my keyboard. I seriously doubt that the majority of us use a computer, keyboard controller, VSTs, host programs for sounds and samples, a style program and try to link them all together on a gig. No! We all want to carry one thing a keyboard. Some use just a G70, a T2, Genesys, SD1 and so on.

Now the MS offers the professional gigging OMB your computer set-up in a single keyboard. If you use VSTs, samples and other sounds from different sources, in an original style or song, when you go to gig you can use all of those sounds if you use the MS. So integration of sounds and styles is one thing that the MS offers that the traditional keyboards do not offer.

As to price, yes it may be little more that a traditional keyboard but after that you mostly would upgrade your sound palate and style palate which you would be doing any way with your studio. So you don�t have to keep changing keyboards every 2 years just to get a few more sounds and styles and you would not have to learn a whole new OS and lay out of the keyboard.

And that brings me to the next point, you actually get more for your money with a keyboard like the MS and other because you are not just getting an arranger or a synth workstation or a Computer DAW but all of them together. So to just compare a MS to a TOTL arranger is comparing apples and oranges.

I also find it strange that now we want to say �There is a quite sophisticated and knowledgeable base of posters here, who MUST be getting tee'd off at the constant harping about how dumb we are...!�
When that was the very point that was being made to put down the practicability of the MS and of style making. Some people only gave members the credit for being able to buy and expensive TOTL arranger, tern on the keyboard, press a few buttons and presto! They sound like a professional 12 member band that has been playing together for 10 years. So that is why the T2 and others in that class are appealing to them.

There were others of us that were trying to convey that there are competent professional arranger and keyboard players who are capable of taking a keyboard and making it sound good with our own personal touch. After all that is what persons with synth workstations have been doing for years.

Dom really has not had a competent musician doing a good professional demo. If he gets a recognizably good musician to play to mediastation, put it to the test in terms of reliability and usability, and it still sounds as it does now then Dom would have to do some more work.

But really, we have not heard the mediastation being used by a competent impartial open-minded musician.

Which brings us back to the original topic. Maybe when they show themselves in the UK more will be revealed about the MS and maybe we will have something to speculate and disagree about like the Audya.

Yeah, so do we . True, the issue is the issue......unless; the gist of the issue is open to interpretation. Also, the best way to lose sight of the "issue" is to have someone go on about it ad nauseum. It's probably how the original messenger got shot. Take the chord sequencer, for instance. Pretty much a one-person crusade; but that's because those of us that owned a g1000 for many years didn't "use the feature or recognize it's value". Apparently, we weren't bright enough. Heck, Fran used the thing (G1000) for like, what, 37 years, and the G800 for 22 years before that, and I haven't heard him complain too vociferously about it's demise.

The thing is, until there is a definitive (international) legal resolution, the moral and ethical issues raised (and there ARE moral and ethical issues involved) are always going to subjective.

It's not that the issue of "intellectual property" is not an important one; it's just that, as Nigel said, it would be best hashed out on a more appropriate board.

chas