#1: Is using transposer buttons live "cheating"?
Is a Kbd player who can play well in every key (a rarity!) or
at least play equally well in 5 or more commonly used keys a better musician than someone who resorts to the transpose button? If a singer(or yourself) wants to call a tune in B, let's say..because it falls perfectly for the vocal range..yeah, they(or you) would sing it up or down a step or a half step if they are pros, but it's not quite the same just because they can sing it up or down.. would you use the transposer or ask them to please call a more common key?
#2: Is using the arranger kbd bass tracks along with the
drum tracks cheating, or at least wimpy compared to playing one's own LH bass lines? or does the fact that
using full pianist mode with arranger bass track permits
one to play more of kbd and own voicings?

background:
I am a pro jazz saxophonist/vocalist who had some
rudimentary piano chops and decided to give up the
bandleader/sideman thing 6 years ago for all the usual reasons to pursue solo/duo gigs playing arranger kbds and singing (adding live sax maybe 2 minutes per set just for kicks and sitting in on sax with others to get my rocks off). At the time I started working keys I felt secure only in the key of C. I faced the dilemma of not only learning to play at least 4 other keys as well as I played C, but elevating my C chops well beyond their ability to just be a serviceable accompaniment to my vocals (at the time my wife said: please sing every tune because you are not a good pianist, but you sing best with your own backing, and you intuitively back yourself better than any of the highly skilled pianists you used to work with.) I felt, being middle-aged, I couldn't devote myself to playing well in several keys before I sought work, so I opted for on-the-job elevation my key of C chops and to always use the transpose buttons when I needed key changes. Except for having to turn down a rare gig call in a place where they insist their baby grand be used, I have not been adversely affected by button-transposing, and concentration in one key has accelerated my progress to the point where I can now play, and comp for others, at a very high level, and I sound just as good in any of the 12 keys! How many "legit" pianists can say that? I can sing, or comp for a singer, in the absolute best key for them on any tune..no need for the vocalist to adjust to avoid the "difficult keys", and because I am so practiced at button-transposing, it doesn't "drive me nuts" (as it does trained pianists) to have fingers on certain keys with a different note coming out than the one expected. Yet..I am looked askance at by musicians, and jazz hipsters--not only for only being able to finger well in one key, but even for using the bass/drum arranger kbd parts in live performance.(imagine if I used the full arrangements or god forbid, trax!) but forgetting the financials and hassles of bandleading-- I feel that a rhytyhm section that keeps perfect time, can slow or speed at my whim, can change tempos/rhythms and dynamics at my whim, insert fills at my whim, is in many ways for me superior as a musical vehicle than all but the very best and most creative live musicians.

So all that above leads to philosophical question #3:
who cares about questions 1 and 2 ??
MIAMI MO

Exactly Mo.....Great post!!

Ditto! Nobody in the audience knows, or for that matter cares what key you play a song in--just as long as you play it well and sing on key.

Cheers,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

You're right...nobody in the audience cares. But, as a professional, I DO. But that's just me and I agree with whatever use of a transposer is appropriate for the individual. I just choose not to use one. I believe that choice makes for a much better player. And, it's not as hard and time consuming as you'd think. There are times when I have to use the house grand to back singers, horn players, etc.

Russ

[This message has been edited by captain Russ (edited 08-17-2006).]

3 questions, where do I start, eenie meenie miami MO!
Its a slow day at the office today, MO

#1: Is using transposer buttons live "cheating"?
Is a Kbd player who can play well in every key (a rarity!) or
at least play equally well in 5 or more commonly used keys a better musician than someone who resorts to the transpose button? If a singer(or yourself) wants to call a tune in B, let's say..because it falls perfectly for the vocal range..yeah, they(or you) would sing it up or down a step or a half step if they are pros, but it's not quite the same just because they can sing it up or down.. would you use the transposer or ask them to please call a more common key?

NO unless you are a contestant in a musician skills competition and the judge is grading you on several categories with 1 category being "transposing skills" , or you are performing a recital.

#2: Is using the arranger kbd bass tracks along with the
drum tracks cheating, or at least wimpy compared to playing one's own LH bass lines? or does the fact that
using full pianist mode with arranger bass track permits
one to play more of kbd and own voicings?

NO unless you are a contestant in a musician skills competition and the judge is grading you on several categories with 1 category being "left hand technique" , or you are performing a recital.

background:
I am a pro jazz saxophonist/vocalist who ....

So all that above leads to philosophical question #3:
who cares about questions 1 and 2 ??
MIAMI MO

The judge at the annual musician skills competition or the ticket buyers to the recital performance are probably the onle ones that care about #1 + #2
I don't think the general public, that usually goes out to have a good time and hear some 'good' music, not necessarily a 'good' musician taking the spotlight with a master musician performance, care or even knows.

Like you with sax, MO, I played trombone many years. A 1-note at a time, acoustic instrument.
I would practice my bone lines in the basement. to songs made popular by top-of-the-chart bands (like CHICAGO Blood, Sweat and Tears, Herb Alpert etc) people that happen to be around at the time didn't take notice. It was no biggy, a kid practicing his trombone. But when I played real-time, along with the song on the record player, they would actually get into it with enthusiasm. Nobody came up and asked me who I thought I was fooling. They just enjoyed hearing the nice full sound of a song/MUSIC that they could relate to and kind of identified me as part of the enjoyment they had.
(Maybe I played the record too loud and they did not even hear my contribution to it )

Another 'old days' story, related to playing and musicianship:
I had a friend who for years, strictly studied/played classical piano. I was at his house one day and he asked me to play something on his piano. I was an accordion player, never a piano player, but i fumbled a bit with some left hand while playing a decent right hand melody. As I was playing, I remember feeling embarrassed because I knew the caliber of his musicianship, but I was totally taken by surprise when I finished the song and looked at him. He had this look of amazement and then his nose wrinkled up and he blurted out with disgust, 'I wish I could do that'.
The MUSIC made is what this piano master heard/listened to. He had chops that allowed him to play high-speed double arpeggio type stuff all day long, and immediately shift into a beautiful delicate Brahams piece.
I can't tell the name of the song I played or you routees will say his focus was on the message/words to that song

I think the point i'm trying to make is that a musical entertainer puts up front, a sound/note/lead/vocal/melodyline, whatever you want to call it. Its the piece that the listening and/or dancing audience usually associates with. And the percentage of the music making that comes thru the aid of auto-accompaniment and bass-line algo-rhythms is probably only important to that lurker in the back of the room by the exit sign, who popped in to hear what other musicians in the neighborhood are up to.

Just a viewpoint of mine, in general, which even I don't agree with for ALL circumstances in playing/performing/entertaining to the public.


[This message has been edited by MrEd (edited 08-17-2006).]

Mo: Though I don't necessarily consider using the transpose button cheating, be aware that that the result doesn't sound the same as heard if you played in the actual key itself, because each key's respective (diatonic) chord voicing sounds uniquely different from one another, because our hand position shape (for each chord) change from one key to another.

That said, some things are nearly impossible to play in some keys .... like certain blues licks that involve sliding up to a note (like a grace note) Try the same riff in "E" and "F" it becomes entirely different. The advantage of the transpose button is that it can function as a 'capo' (ala keyboard) to aid in performing difficult passages. Though I believe the transpose key can be easily mis-used, or overused, I appreciate the fact that it exists and use it for situations I just mentioned, or when a singer can't quite hit that high G that night, I'll use the transpose key to simply lower the key down a half step, or on another night, up a 1/2 step to brighter up her voice. I was taught to learn to play (jazz piano) in ALL 12 keys. Short of this feat, I recommend to everyone here to at least learn to play in lots of keys anyway, as your music will sound much FRESHER when chords are voiced differently.

Scott

Scott, as usual you are an inspiration and a fount of wisdom.
That the different hand positions lead to freshness of voicing
is undeniable, even though it pertains more to"piano players"
per se than arranger keyboardists. But one who takes up playing an instrument professionally late in life must take the shortcuts offered by modern technology or remain at home practicing for years before emerging (and you know that never really will happen) So the freshness in my case has to come from the variety of sounds, timbres, effects, and rhythms available in the modern keyboard, which far exceed
the more subtle nuances of different fingerings.
Miami Mo

It always depends on how well you already know a tune's changes....... If it's unfamiliar, just go for it. If it's a tune you are very familiar with the changes in one particular key, well, do what will get the best result......

Just, NEXT TIME, play it in THEIR key........!

I was performing at a private party a few nights ago and at the end of the evening a middle-aged man came up to me and said "I really enjoyed your performance, but you played Leroy Brown in the wrong key--it was written in Bb (or some other key)."

My response was "Yes, it was written in another key, but my voice cannot handle that key, therefore, I play it in C-maj, which is the most comfortable for my vocal range."

He replied "Oh! I never thought of that. I can only play by the sheet music. By the way, where is your music stand?"

I said "I don't read music--the song is in my head, along with the chord changes and lyrics."

"Wow! I wish I could do that." He said as he walked away.

Obviously, this individual was an excellent player, had a good ear, and was well trained. It was also obvious that if someone took the sheet music from his music stand he couldn't play. As DNJ, Uncle Dave and many others have stated--music comes from the heart and mind--not a piece of paper.

Cheers,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

Excactly Gary....good post, interesting gig story.

That "comfort zone" thing can be nice but it robs you of the chance to become a more balanced musician. Every gig is a paid rehearsal and an opportunity to improve. Playing in the key of B (or somewhat more challenging: Db) or any key other than C gives you more experience in new fingering, scaling and soloing. It could make that grand piano look more inviting. I agree with getting enough songs under your belt to do the gig any way you have to but at that very instant is when you should add songs for the sake of stretching your abilities.

Same can be said for the play-by-ear-only crowd. I think any one-sided approach to performance is a hinderance to progress. I've known people who could only play by sheet music and what they lacked in improvisation skills they often made up for in sightreading ability and sheer precision. I wouldn't trade one set of skills for another but do my best to incorporate both.

Wow. You guys sure got phil0sophical on this one.

This one is so simple. Be the best musician that you can be, build an arsenal with as many weapons that you can (technique, ear, sight reading, improv, playing in keys, using technology, not using technology, ...).

But,

When people come to hear you play, use what ever you can to make them happy (midi files, vocoder, arrangers, no arrangers, transpose functions, stand on one foot and drink a glass of water while singing). They will appreciate it and you'll have more fun performing.

You need an ego to perform but you also have to have respect for your audience.

[This message has been edited by RobertG (edited 08-18-2006).]

Many of the finest players/performers played/play by ear. I didn't learn to site read until I was involved in a lot of studio work. Learning tunes is faster if you can read. Doing arrangements requires reading skills. Rehearsing for a one time performance is a lot faster when you site read. Look at Paul Shafer read charts when he backs Letterman guests.

I would never rely on charts for live performances, but it's great when you have a "one shot" guest or performance of unfamiliar material.

I don't know why every professional wouldn't take the time to develop a level of proficiency in site reading.


Russ

well,since I started this thread, I'll jump back in here to sum up my feelings re what has been said..
I think one has to always find a balance:
1)please your audience, but hold to your musical tastes and standards as well--and vice versa. doing just one w/o the other is a slippery slope..
2)it's an art form, but also a vocation..and vice versa.
3)whatever it takes to make music more interesting and
entertaining and meaningful and artisitic is valid. If it's
craftsmanship, fine. If it's not..that's Ok too. If everyone
was born with effortless ability to sing like an angel, that
would make the world a better place, no? Or does it suck because anyone can do it without years of training and practice?
btw..thanks for all the input, guys!!!
MIAMI MO

Topic ---- Philosophical questions re "cheating"

Not to make it sound too simple --- Cheating is not when you’re doing something wrong. Cheating is when you KNOW you are doing something wrong.

Humans have the unique ability to lie to ourselves “big time”. If you truly feel you’re not cheating, do what you do without allowing someone to condemn you.
If you know it’s cheating, ya gotta keep fighting everybody, they could be right.

I was taught that wrong/cheating begins in your heart, that’s where the real you lies.

Whooooooops, Did I say too much?

John C.

Part of this I cannot understand. If your chops are amazingly good in C, then the other keys should not be hard because they all use the same 12 notes. I mean, of course I know it is harder to play in some keys than others, but Jazz can have so many chord changes and such that even to play a song in C would require knowing lots of other chords.
What if you needed to comp Suffisticated Lady, or Smoke Gets in your Eyes, or Joyspring or whatever songs like that where the bridge is in a whole differnt key than the main section. Can you comp those tunes? Because if you can, then you can already play in different keys.

[This message has been edited by FAEbGBD (edited 08-18-2006).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by FAEbGBD:
[B]Part of this I cannot understand. If your chops are amazingly good in C, then the other keys should not be hard because they all use the same 12 notes. I mean, of course I know it is harder to play in some keys than others, but Jazz can have so many chord changes and such that even to play a song in C would require knowing lots of other chords.
What if you needed to comp Suffisticated Lady, or Smoke Gets in your Eyes, or Joyspring or whatever songs like that where the bridge is in a whole differnt key than the main section. Can you comp those tunes? Because if you can, then you can already play in different keys.

If you play let’s say in the key of C most of the time you become very comfortable with the progressions in that key. If you have to go to the bridge and it is in a different key, it does become a bit of a stretch.

It is not just my left hand (arranger keyboard) that is comfortable with the different chord progressions and that I am able to finger them with ease --- more important is that my hand seems to know where to go without knowing the name of the next chord. The repetition is learned by the hand not just the conscious mind.

Having said that – I do take the same song and play it through 6 to 7 different keys so that my mind and hand begins to memorize the movements.

Only an opinion, John c.




[This message has been edited by bruno123 (edited 08-18-2006).]

Gotta' agree with John-- For me "C" is a natural and my aging fingers seem to instinctively know where to go. This applies to both the right and left hand. Now some folks might consider this cheating, especially piano players who don't have access to a transpose feature. For me, I consider that transpose button a GIFT! Sure makes life a lot easier.

Cheers,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

Gary , I definitly C what you mean

I agree, well said.
Peter

some of you are telling me it's not hard to learn to play w/both hands in all keys, yet you can't spell Sophisticated Lady (suffisticated?yikes!) even though you must have seen it in print many times..or sight reading (site reading? that's for surveyors). hey, Irving Berlin had a special piano built with a moveable keyboard because he could only play in Db, because he learned by noodling on the black keys . "Hey, Irving, stop that cheating--you'll never get anywhere in music unless you practice in all the keys." The point is, he was writing songs--what would have become of many of them if he spent a lot if his valuable time pointlessly learning "the right way"? So he, in essence, invented a transpose button. And that's what I do and what anyone with any common sense would do unless they needed to play a non-transposing keyboard. Musicians too often confuse degree of difficulty with musical virtue. Sometimes they overlap, but "it ain't necessarily so." Listen to Count Basie's tinkling piano..think that band would swing as hard w/ a virtuoso?
Miami Mo

What comes first music or notation.
Notation is a relatively recent invention.
A great one I admit but people were singing and playing primitive instruments before it came along.
I treat a musical score as a guide to what the composer had in mind.
There are many nuances that can be applied.
I object to people picking up on incorrect spelling and had been impressed by the fact that it had not been pick on before this.
The dictionary is also another relatively recent invention and speach came before it.
It is also another great innovation and a great tool in our modern society but I polietly ingnore it when people do not conform to its dictates.

Cousin Ken

keysvocalssax, of course it is only the music that matters in the end. No-one can possibly deny that.

But although your initial posting was made out to be a question I think you weren't really asking a question but making a statement as you already knew how you feel about this issue before you began. But you did ask for input from others and of course you got a range of opinions.

As I said it's all about the music and how each of us go about achieving that is a personal thing. Reading music and being profficient playing in all keys is a very desirable thing. Sure it may not be essential to play good music, but that is a personal choice in what disciplines bring out the best in us.

Neither approach is right or wrong. We all have to make the right decision for ourselves for the right reasons. However we end up going about it just make sure the music sounds good. That is the bottom line.

( PS I work with some very talented software engineers who are very accomplished mathematicians but whose spelling skills aren't perfect .... there is no connection between the abilities so I really don't think that is a valid arguement one way or the other )


I think we all got to put in our 2 cents worth. It was a very worthwhile thread but I think it's all been said now.


[This message has been edited by Nigel (edited 08-18-2006).]