Anyone know when we can expect the Yamaha Tyros III will arrive the market.

In a few days .

no idea, I personally feel the T2 doesn't need a replacement for a couple of years. Perhaps we might get something like a Tyros 2 Pro in the interim with 88 keys and more voices/styles.

Regards
James

The Tyros3 will be a while yet...at least another year.

As far as a pro version? Not likely.

Not enough demand for anything with more than 61 keys.

Ian

------------------
Remember to leave good news alone.

Good point Ian. It's a shame really - the 9000 Pro was a great keyboard for it's time - shame the concept didn't see it through to the Tyros range. I for one would buy a top end Yamaha tomorrow if one were to be released with more keys. I just find that 61 keys can be a bit restrictive at times.

Regards
James

Amazing that Yamaha seem to think their workstations need to be in three different sizes, but arranger players only need one....

Mind you, if everybody didn't bitch about the weight of these things constantly, Yamaha might consider it! If Yamaha had made a 76 note T2, it might be my main keyboard, but I guess they don't really care about offering a choice.

Personally I think people should be screaming at Yamaha for a new OS update.

If KORG can turn around and develop an extremely significant update at this late stage in the Pa1X life (OS3), I’m sure Yamaha can do the same.

Regards.
James.

The next OS update will be Tyros 3 Yamaha releases a new product in each of its market segments every 2 or 3 years. And a lot of people thankfully upgrade to the newest model - even if the changes are often minor. Som recent history:

1995: PSR-7000
1997: PSR-8000
1999: PSR-9000
2002: Tyros
2005: Tyros 2

See the complete list here .

Kind regards,
Tommy

And I would like to add:

Korgs policy with OS updates throughout a products life cycle is much better for the customer but might not generate as much profit as Yamahas business model.

Kind regards,
Tommy



[This message has been edited by TommyF (edited 01-21-2007).]

It seems that you have missed:

2000: PSR-9000 Pro

(just joking)

According to the time progression we can expect Tyros 3 at the end of the 2008. Hopefully it will have a USB 2.0

Regards,
George

Yes, of course, thanks for correcting me

Kind regards,
Tommy

---------------------------------------------
Korgs policy with OS updates throughout a products life cycle is much better for the customer but might not generate as much profit as Yamahas business model.
---------------------------------------------

That's sad too. Yammie doesn't want to support the T2 in the way Korg does the PA owners. Yammie wants you to shell out another $3500 or more for the next model rather than give you good OS support for the current one. Which is clearly why Yamaha's product support always gets such sh$#@y marks.

They need to change that IMO. They could learn a thing or two from the others in the customer support and product support department. They're OK with their synths, but they sure as hell hang the arranger players out to dry. Where's the Tyros customer loyalty program???? They have it for the Motif line.... Why won't they offer this program to the many that support the Tyros by spending thousands upon thousands of their hard earned money on their product?

First,we have to wait for Rocky Balboa VII then will arrive Tyros III...hi hi
IrishActs said right...first new OS update.
regards

Well, if you look at it this way. Roland and Korg produce what, around 50 pound keyboards. Add a SOFT case with wheels and that's about another 20 pounds for a total of around 70 pounds.

Tyros 2 is about 32 pounds, add a soft case with wheels and that is already about 50 pounds. If you want 76 keys why not get a midi controller keyboard that weighs around 10 pounds? I know for me I would much rather have a 32 pound and a 10 pound keyboard that only takes about 5 seconds to hook up, and have the versatility of having 2 keyboards than trying to grunt a 50 pounder up on a stand, and keep my back in good shape etc, etc.

So, I don't really see what the big deal is. I personally don't need any more than 61 keys but, if I did, I still would never, never ever consider one of those 50 pounders. I would much rather save the bod than tear it down. You only have to experience lifting woes once to appreciate this.

So, there it is. My idea. Do whatever works for you the best though, is the main thing

Casio can make keyboards with 88 keys, fully weighted action and speakers, which weigh about the same as the Tyros2.

Problem is that few manufacturers can see a market for a full-featured, quality, low-weight 76 note keyboard. It's obviously not hard to do based on current technology and manufacturing processes. But if they thought they could sell a zillion boards then you would already see plenty of 76 key models all over the place.

Personally I prefer 76 keys or more, but when it comes to weight I'm with Scott. If it's too heavy I ain't luggin' it...........

Give me a Tyros 2 in a Casio PX chassis = 88 keys and all the bells and whistles under 30lbs!

kind regards,
Mark

Yamaha do make 88 key arrangers, trouble is they are sold as non-portable pianos as the CVP range!

Casio PX-200: 26lbs
Ketron MidJay: 7 lbs

88-note arranger: 33lbs

Hoping that the manufactures read this... Why don't KB manufactures create nice 76 and 88 key versions of their pro arrangers keeping only the keybed and controls in the keyboard itslef, and externalizing all the guts of they keyboard in an external logic unit that could be a rugged, easily transportable chassis with wheels and with a nice handle on it. A single complex cable could connect the keyboard with the logic unit. All power, midi, cooling, pedals and other cables could all be connected to the logic unit and kept out of sight, keeping the keyboard itself simple, and unincumbered. The weight would be divided nicely making both units easily transportable. Expansion boards, additional memory, hard drives, and optical drives could all be located in the logic unit making them very accessible and easy to get to. Externalizing the logic would make room for a large hi res touch sensitive flat screen and lots of faders and programmable buttons.

Doesnt that sound kewl?? haha.. Its fun to dream.

Russ

It sure is

Tyros III almost made it out, but once again they spelled the name ROYTOS instead of TYROS... product was stopped, until 2008.



[This message has been edited by DanO1 (edited 02-13-2007).]

In December 2007 rumours will emerge of a Tyros 3. By March 2008 a picture will be leaked onto the net. The Tyros 3 world launch will be October 2008. Start saving those pennys...

In December 2007 rumours will emerge of a Tyros 3. By March 2008 a picture will be leaked onto the net. The Tyros 3 world launch will be October 2008. Start saving those pennys...

This is no disrespect to anyone, but seriously though. Even if Yammie released a 76 key version of the TyrosII or Tyros III how many members do you think would complain about the weight?

76 good quality keys are gonna add some weight along with the addition to the body length. Also consider there will be some that will want the 76 key version to have speakers too. That without question is gonna push the weight up. I thought Yammie was really heading in the right direction with the 9000 Pro, but that run didn't last long.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 02-13-2007).]

I want a module version of the PA-800, G-70, and/or the T-2.
Personally, I think that manufacturer support for Korg, Roland and Yamaha are terrible. Thanks to, and if not for, third party groups like PSR tutorial, Korg forums, SynthZone forums, we non-techies would be floundering around and - Gulp ... we would have to actually read and rely on the wonderfully clear manuals.
Most all of the forums have posts complaining about thier specific makers lack of responsiveness.
Ciao,
Jerry

Jerry, I couldn't agree with you more man! There needs to be more fully functional modules of both arrangers and synths/workstations.

What pisses me off is that Yamaha, Korg, and Roland always respond by saying. The "demand isn't there". Man that is such bullsh$#t The demand is there and has ALWAYS been there. If the demand wasn't there then people wouldn't be asking for them.

They must think we the consumers are just really dumb. You don't need a marketing degree to figure it out. Fully functional module versions would compete directly with the keyboard sales. The module version would have to be cheaper. The module version would be more attractive in price compared to the keyboard version. We're always wanting to save space in our setups which is why people continue to demand full featured modules or racks.

I can only imagine the cost of a rack or module version of the professional arrangers. Hell a T2 rack would probably cost $3,000, and Yamaha would use that to justify the price of the current T2.

We can keep askin for them, but I don't see them making them anytime soon. Thankfully Korg has a module version of the M3. However, notice the module is of the M3, a synth all it's own. One that isn't part of the Triton line.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 02-13-2007).]

The small group of people on this forum looking for arranger modules do not constitute a demand.

These companies do a true arranger market research for the wants of the average consumer, not the pro...there is way more money to be made in the amateur/hobbyist market than the pros...it has been proven time and time again.

Tyros1/2, E-80, etc are for amateur hobbyists...not pros.....that's why the only modules will be synth modules.

Roland tried it with the RA series...now discontinued...sales were dismal.

The same follows for 76 note arrangers...the PSR 6700(with speakers) in 1991, and the PSR-9000 Pro(no speakers) in 2000, were both poor sellers...market people don't want poor sellers.

This forum is not realistically indicative of the average arranger user...we all want this and that...but realistically the numbers aren't there.

Ian


------------------
Cha d’dhùin doras nach d’fhosgail doras.

Ian, this forum doesn't in no way represent the number of arranger players out there, nor do the posts indicate the number of indivuduals who are "read only", compared to those that are also posters.

Just because there is just a handful on the zone doesn't mean the demand isn't there. The Zone itself doesn't represent the arranger community as a whole. The need for modules is on both ends (arrangers and synths).

If you go back 10 yrs or more you will find a lot of modules available, and they were used to add (Expand) voices, styles, effects etc of the instrument you were playing, because with the technology of the time a large number of sounds etc could not be incorporated in a single instrument, however with the latest instruments this is no longer the case and so sales of modules would be small.
Another point to note is that better quality softsynths (VSTs) are available at a much cheaper price then a hardware equivalent, (VSTs also tend to make most hardware modules look primitive) and this combined with the fact that a computer (Or Open Keyboard) can have many softsynths available with only a small increase in weight, means that this is the way most people go. (Multiple modules (Expanders) are a pain to set up and need a lot of room, as well as weighing a ton, and this means that only those with roadies would be likely to use them)
Such is the advancement of technology

Bill

Quote: Jerry T I want a module version of the PA-800, G-70, and/or the T-2.

Quote: squeak_D Jerry, I couldn't agree with you more man! There needs to be
more fully functional modules of both arrangers and synths/workstations.

Keep shouting guys and I will join you -
getting tired of waiting for a good modern module.

I've said before, that if they developed the modules from the flagship keyboards
instead of low / mid range, they would sell them by the cartload and all the guys
who want 76 / 88 keys could be happy at last too.

Tony, Sheffield

Roland seemed to pull the arranger module thingy off more successfully than the other companies, but demand fell off, and they were no longer made.

Personally, I'd rather have it all in the keyboard where it is all within easy reach...the modules were always a pain.

I don't miss them.

Ian



------------------
Cha d’dhùin doras nach d’fhosgail doras.

If we assume that capitalism is working, I am afraid we have to assume that there ISN'T sufficient demand for module arrangers any more. What POSSIBLE reason would any manufacturer refuse a significant source of revenue?

The sad fact is, module users are a small fraction of the market, most arranger buyers are NOT pros (not by a Grand Canyon-wide margin!), and most hobbyist do not want the complexity of setting a master keyboard up to control a sophisticated arranger.

I used to own an RA90, and controlling THAT from an Ensoniq was enough of a challenge, limited though it was. Think of the myriad buttons and sliders on a G70 or T2. Now try to think of ANY master controller with that many buttons, and then think of whether the arranger manufacturer even allows MIDI control of each and every function. Now think of how complex a task it will be to program your keyboard to address each and every switch.

You can't put all the knobs and buttons on the module, or it would be just as big as the arranger it replaces!

You just have to face up to the facts that firstly, the arranger market is a fraction of the total sales of any of the Big 3, and that pros are a fraction of THAT fraction. If arranger module sales had dominated keyboard sales in the past, things would be different, BUT THEY DIDN'T....

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 02-13-2007).]

Diki,
Module version or rack versions in arranger format may not be in as high demand, but they sure as hell are in high demand with the top workstations. The Korg Triton Rack, and Yamaha EX5-R sold well. Hell I can't tell you the number of personal and large scale studios that I've seen that had both the Triton Rack, and Yamaha EX5-R in the same rack shelf, one on top of the other.

So maybe module demand might be a fraction of the arranger line, but module demand would not make up a small fraction on the synth end. Full modules/racks "do" take away from the sales of the keyboard itself. If they started making these things again sales of the keyboards would without question drop.

Squeak, you are confusing workstation use with arranger use.

If you already have a good workstation, you can easily control a rack workstation (although getting one WS's arpeggiator to reliably trigger another WS's arpeggiator can be tricky, amongst many other things). But getting a workstation or master keyboard to control a T2 for instance, is another matter altogether.

I can't imagine the complexity of mapping each and every control of my G70 to a master keyboard (and know full well that there isn't a MIDI command for every function on the front panel). Ergonomically, you could never fit all the needed buttons onto a module without making the buttons too small to be useful, live.

Primarily, all a rack WS module does is make sounds. You start to get into some VERY complicated country just trying to get master keyboard X to control module Y's arpeggiator, while stopping and starting module Z's RAM tracks, all the time pitch ribbon-ing it's internal synth engine. Most people just call up patch A from module B and layer it with another patch from another module.

Arrangers are SO much more complicated than this. Patches are the LEAST of your worries. Style selection on the fly, registration changes, multi-pad triggering, variations, breaks, intro/outro selection, tempo rits and accels, chord recognition modes, bass inversion, sync start and stop, need I go on?

What keyboard out there has the buttons and the flexibility to control all that, even if the arranger HAD the codes to be controlled? I know I certainly wouldn't want the job of setting the whole thing up!

I think you are coming at this backwards. It is FAR easier to control a WS module from an arranger, than it is to control an arranger module from a WS. Patch selection via MIDI is fairly commonplace in decent arrangers, the module can be programmed to do it's thing to the clock of the arranger, and a little fader/knob box can be added to control WS features that the arranger can't address.

Or is it that you'd just rather be SEEN playing a WS, while they HEAR you playing an arranger....?!

Practically, it's MUCH easier the other way.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to confuse the two, but it's just that I can't imagine the desire for a full functioning arranger module being so low considering how often we see the issue of weight surface on the zone.

Hi Diki
you don't have to program every function in your master keyboard.
Mostly just use the buttons on the module itself - They are there to be used.
Take a look at the Gem Genesys XP and the Ketron XD3

Tony, Sheffield

Most people bitching about weight here don't use big workstations for the same reason. Try lifting my K2500 (only a 76-er!) if you want to make a G70 seem light! If you want a QUALITY action, and loads of high quality knobs and sliders, and stability (can't play well while your keyboard bounces around!), weight is the price you pay.

There are well documented problems with many ultra-lightweight 76 and 88 note keyboards, because of the flexing issue. If you support them just right, no problem, but put them on the wrong X-stand and notes stick or fail to trigger accurately. No decent pianist would EVER put up with a piano that bounced! Or B3 player. You are supposed to PLAY the keyboard, not chase it around on stage!

If you LIKE flimsy buttons and keys, there's always the T2....

I'm sorry, Tony, but by the time you got all the knobs and buttons and displays from my G70 into a module, it would be nearly as big as the real thing. Most modules get around this by making the buttons too small (or menu-ing up a lot more). Plus, there is a little thing called ergonomics. There is a reason why some buttons are near your right hand, and some near your left...

What I don't understand is why this generation of keyboard players is the first to be unable to lift 30 lbs or more.... There was no option to do this 20 yrs ago, and yet most kept working! I remember seeing Fender Rhodes's and even Hammonds lugged around by players in their 50's and even 60's (that's why you have kids!) but todays senior citizens want helium-like keyboards, and then bitch about how flimsy and unreliable they are!

Piano players, at least, seem to understand that bounce is the death of control.

-----------------------------------------------

BTW, Tony, I used to play the old Sheffield Tiffany's back in the late 70's before I moved to the States. Is it still there? I used to play in Mecca bands in Sheffield, Nottingham and Birmingham/Coventry back in the days when they hired ten-piece bands (and sometimes two bands a night!). Ahhhh, the good old days.....

Ian



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Cha d’dhùin doras nach d’fhosgail doras.

I like the key feel of T2.. Heavy keys hurt my hand and i feel l can play better on a keyboard that has a synth action.. G70 and pa1x pro too heavy key feel for my liking. I hope T3 has the same keyfeel as T2. I also prefer they keep it at 61 keys cos i simply wud use the octave button on T2 if i needed to go higher... Maybe there are too many ppl like me and that is why yamaha (who kiss every $10 they get) wont invest after the 9000 pro disaster..

BTW, Tony, I used to play the old Sheffield Tiffany's back in the late 70's before I moved to the States. Is it still there? I used to play in Mecca bands in Sheffield, Nottingham and Birmingham/Coventry back in the days when they hired ten-piece bands (and sometimes two bands a night!). Ahhhh, the good old days.....

Hi Diki,
Sorry to tell you that Tiffany's (or Locarno as I knew it) is no longer. Don't go down that way very often but passed it last year and it was derelict and looked as though they were about to pull it down. I was quite sad - had some great times in there between 1957 - 1963. Just about all the live music venues have now gone - the future for musicians over here is very bleak. I only know one kb player who still plays live now when I used to know dozens. Hope it's better in the States or there will be no demand for keyboards at all.
Best wishes, Tony, Sheffield.

RF I agree with ya buddy

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dnj:
RF I agree with ya buddy I like it light myself



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 02-14-2007).]

Regarding the weight of arrangers, I used to carry heavy gear around 30 years ago, because there weren't any options. Today there are, and today I'm 30 years older, and today I'm moving my equipment 3-6 times a week.
The arthritis in my right wrist won't let me play weighted keys, even if I preferred to (but I don't). Weighted keys make it more difficult to emulate instruments.
I don't think of today's arrangers as flimsy and I don't recall having any problems with any of them, except the Roland G800. And btw it was pretty heavy. If you take a PSR3000 and beat on it like you would a Grand Piano, yes you will tear it up, but that's not what they are designed to do.
It's pretty easy to scoff at us old-timers who don't want to lift heavy gear. Trust me, we get there far sooner than you would ever believe.
If it weren't for arrangers, I would be probably be sitting in some office all day, counting the hours til I could get off work and rush home to spend a few hours playing music in my spare time.
I DEARLY love the Roland G70, but had to pass on it, after borrowing one for several months, because of the weight. As much as I love the sounds, styles and most features, it's too big a compromise. Jury is still out on the Korg PA800, but at least the weight is right.
Regarding arranger modules, I had great success using the Ketron Midjay with a light-weight controller. There were a few compromises with control, but really not many. Sometimes I wonder why I got away from that. If the PA800 doesn't work out, I will probably go back to it, and then eagerly look forward to the next whatever.
DonM

Don I miss my MIDJAY also....Although great as is with a few additional Player NEEDED features Ketron could really cash in on a KILLER module unit...otherwise I agree with everything your sayin......so when you dumpin the Pa800

Some of us old-timers disagree with you Don, but that doesn't mean we want to carry heavy gear either. I no longer play unweighted keys... I use a 26lb 88-note hammer-action Casio as a controller for my Yamaha 9000 Pro and I either play a digital piano or a grand piano otherwise. This gives me a much more consistent feel no matter what I play, and I can get far more expression out of a graded-hammer keyboard than any other.

Casio's new PX-200 coming out in early March will feature 128-note polyphony, graded-hammer action 88-note keybed, triple-strike piano, arranger functions and SMF playback, and it will sell for around $699. And it will still weigh 26lbs. For the pianists among us this is more attractive than a Tyros III or IV or whatever other 61-note rehash Yamaha comes out with.

That Ketron MidJay does look sweet.

[This message has been edited by Esh (edited 02-14-2007).]

I don't think modules are limited to keyboardists. I know several midi guitar players who still use the Korg i40M and others playing through an arranger keyboard for lack of a decent module. There are also midi wind/horn players who use modules of various brands. I started with the Korg i5M, and when the gig called for it, I had the i5S. When Korg released the i40M, I jumped on it as well as the is40 and eventually the i30. For a time, I had the Roland RA-800 with the G-600. I currently use the i40M and I just sold my PA1XPRO (weight issue) and I also use the PA60. I have the GEM Genesys XP, It's an amazing module, but it doesn't sound like the PA1XPRO, the T-2, or the G-70, the sound that I want. I'm going to upgrade my keyboard and I want a complimentary module. There are styles that I've been using for years. The converted styles do not convert well to the MidJay, or I would be on it in a sec. I tried some converted Korg styles on my friend's MidJay, and even after tweaking, they were no where near the quality that I would take out to gigs.
Sorry for the rant. I want a quality module!
Ciao,
Jerry

Hi Jerry,
couldn't agree more. Gives you controller of choice, be it 61 ,76, or 88 note keyboards, guitar controllers ,accordian whatever.
I had 3 of them midied to my Disklavier
( midi acoustic piano) at one stage, Technics, Roland & Korg arranger modules.

Unfortunately they got dated, because the companies stopped producing them.

Demand may have not been there mainly because, non of the stores over here in Aust. stocked them, internet as we know it today, did not exist.Only way one could find out what was on offer was to buy expensive keyboard magazines, which mainly focused on synths, samplers & workstations.

What hope did an arranger module have.

best wishes
Rikki
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jerry T:
[B]I want a module version of the PA-800, G-70, and/or the T-2.

Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE it if things were lighter, too (I'm over 50 myself!). But I am unwilling to compromise on the stability and quality of action. Control is the issue, dynamics, the ability to pound it if you HAVE to without the darn thing moving. Remember, if the keybed is moving up or down even a little while you play, that is adding or subtracting from the force you are playing with, thus impairing your accuracy.

That may not matter to some. I know it does to me. As a pianist initially, and then a Hammond player, Rhodes player and some VERY heavy synths (anyone remember the CS-80?), my whole technique evolved around keyboards that stayed still while you played them.

One thing you see a LOT nowadays are keyboards perched on flimsy X-stands. One thing that most older keyboards understood was that you needed legs AT EACH CORNER, preferably splayed out slightly. Much more stable....

What's the workstation you see played on TV the most? Probably the Motif ES8. Weight? 63lbs (28.3kg). Seems most of those seasoned pros understand about stability.

I understand that as you get older, solo portage gets harder. That's just one more reason why working in a duo or bigger is better!

While it seems that the sounds and styles of an arranger are of paramount concern to most players, here (rabidly defended against ALL criticism!), unfortunately, the actual thing you PLAY (not listen to!) seems to be completely unimportant. Far better to play a lesser sound with greater accuracy and control than the other way around......

Gosh, Diki. Judging from your vast amount of knowledge on practically every subject, I would have guessed you to be much younger......just kidding, guy. Truth is, I'm with you 100% (80% of the time ). We all know by now that you don't suffer fools lightly and that's okay (to a point). I've already stated in one of Russ's threads from long ago that you are one of the people I would most like to meet in person; sooooo, if you're ever up this way (North Atlanta burbs), stop in and I'm sure that between the two of us, we can sort out most of the world's problems (keyboard problems, anyway) in short order. If necessary, we can always call SqueakD for a quickie consultation. Keep up that sparkling banter, bro. You make the world a smarter place.

chas

Right, Chas. Nice to have intelligent, reasoned contributions.


Thanks, Diki!

(PS know any folk music?)

"doghouse"

Anybody but Bebop know what a "doghouse" is?

I love your post, Diki...very well expressed.

You are certainly a true idealist.

In contrast, I am a more of a realist, and lighter gear is paramount in my work.

Keyboard action is relative to a person's playing style, and while your playing may be on the more aggressive side, mine is not...I tend to work very laid back, and the nice light touch of my 3k is perfect.

Good velocity sensitivity is most important, and the 3k does it wonderfully...you can press a note slow enough so that it doesn't sound...just like on a real piano.

Weighted keys mean weight, and only really apply if you are playing piano...they don't work well with strings, sax, or organ, for example.

What is most important, is that the keyboard action I choose allows me to express MY style.

I invested in a good double braced X-stand that keeps my 3k in place with no bounce, but because my playing style is gentler, it isn't really an issue.

What matters most to me, is that after a three hour gig, I don't dread having to lug heavy gear...or need a gas eating van to haul it.

While it is nice to admire what is used by the "pros" on stage and on TV, they aren't in my line of work, and, ultimately, they are only doing the same as I...using the appropriate tool for the job THEY do.

I think the ability to assess the changing music scene and adapt to it, is just as important as having competent playing skills, and those who don't, wind up with very few gigs.

Playing music (especially as a solo performer)does not appear to be your primary means of earning a living (perhaps it was in the past), and it would be interesting to see how your views would change if you were depending on it as a principal source of income.

Ian




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Cha d’dhùin doras nach d’fhosgail doras.

I tell you, Yammy are playing a very dangerous game. They need to improve the T2 with some decent changes as have been commented here, in the past. I like many bought the T1, thinking it would be a long time b4 I would need to update, and then the T2, i purchased it thinking the same thing. Twice bitten, three times shy though, so beware Yamaha, we wont be caught out a third time. Please, the board is great, and there are many things you could do to make it better b4 you need another unit out there, I for one on principle, will not buy another unless you have a trade in program or loyalty benifit built into the next release

Thanks for the comments..... Don't let my REAL age fool you, I am still a kid (and just as opinionated!) at heart, and have music to thank for it!

I will continue to be an idealist about the weight issue until my back gives out completely, and then I will become a realist...... but I won't be happy about it! I realize the practical necessities for many of light weight portable arrangers, but seldom understand anyone PREFERRING them.

Let's be honest..... if someone else was willing to carry all your gear, would you actually CHOOSE the keybed you play? If not, then you have to acknowledge that your choice is simply a compromise. The main thing is to mitigate it as much as you can, and pressuring manufacturers to use better quality key-beds is the first thing to try....

BTW, as many here know, I am NOT a user of heavy 88-note piano controllers for live use. I think, unless you are PRIMARILY a pianist, and rarely use other sounds, they make playing most non-piano sounds MUCH harder.

I am a HUGE fan of the action that Roland has used (WAY too sparingly IMO) on the G800, G1000, G70 (I have owned all three) and the old A70 master controller. It doesn't weigh much more than a regular 76-er (if the truth be told, most of the weight in a G70 comes from a very stout case, mostly steel, NOT the action itself), but the smoothness of the action, the shape of the keys (very close to piano-sized, especially the blacks, but more rounded to facilitate gliss's and smears on the organ), and the resistance, less than a piano, but more than a B3 (or Yamaha!), for me, and many who have tried one, it's the perfect key-bed.

You can pound it, you can tickle it, it does it all.... If they made a workstation with this action, I would have it! You owe it to yourself to try one, if you haven't already. Then you might understand how I feel.

I am sorry my writing style is so formal, if you met me you would see I'm not QUITE as stuffy as this (my friends might differ!), but being educated in England, back when correct grammar and form were insisted upon, this is how I tend to write. I seldom get to Atlanta, but if I do, I will let you know. And if any of you are in the Destin FL area, feel free to contact me, and I will do my best to be a fun time!

Y'all come back now, y'hear..... Shoot!

Let's be realistic, Diki... you have to acknowledge the fact that no one is going to carry my gear, unless I pay them, which sort of defeats the advantage of solo playing.

Playing the 3k is far from being a compromise...it was my instrument of choice for far more reasons than the weight issue.

As I stated earlier, you can't be making a full time living at gigging, or the weight issue would be much more important.

Waiting till your back gives out before you change, seems to be setting yourself up for even bigger compromises later in your life.

I do respect your choices, but they certainly aren't ones I would choose, but, hey, that's what makes things so interesting.

All the best of luck to you.

Ian






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Cha d’dhùin doras nach d’fhosgail doras.

Ian..... I appreciate that you ARE one of the few who have legitimately decided that the action of your arranger IS your preferred choice. My comments weren't meant at you specifically, but the majority here at SZ who want light weight at any price. Sorry if I didn't get it down more correctly.

Actually, except for this time of year, the off-season here in the panhandle of FL, when I rest and recuperate(!) and try to get my studio work done (no time for it later, as you'll see), I work an average of six to eight gigs a week during the season, Mar-Oct. Doubles are a mainstay during that time, and I'll often find myself playing for up to eight hours a day or more.

But yes, primarily I work in a duo or larger outfit, and can get help with some of my gear, and I help out with others'. We use a pretty large, pro-sized PA (play outdoors a LOT!) which is a lot heavier than my G70 in it's flight case. So all in all, I'm still lugging around probably a LOT more than most of the portable arranger users here use.

The size of my gigs demand it, or at least it's superiority over our competitors gives us an edge. We have a smaller PA (Mackie sub, Yamaha EMX-5000 and two SRX 12" and horn top cabs) that is still larger than I dare say most use here. But we get top dollar for playing resorts and corporate party gigs, and that level of sound reinforcement is usually expected at that level of employment.

BTW, when I do play the occasional solo, I use the smaller rig, sometimes without the sub if it is a VERY small party or room - those SRX JBL's are amazing...!

You also have to understand, Ian, that while I respect YOUR choice of equipment, it is no more the norm than mine. Usually, the size of the gig determines the size of the PA, at least if you want repeat bookings.... Too small and you may never get that callback!

The feel of the keyboard (even, dare I say it, a TINY bit more than the sound) is what I feel important when you are playing eight hours a day. You have a different priority. Neither of us has a monopoly on the 'truth'. Both methods have their plusses and minuses.

Indeed, if I were doing exclusively solo work, I MIGHT find weight of more importance. But from humping Rhodes's and Hammond's over the years, I have learned to use leverage, dollies, and even the occasional bystander to get the job done! When my back finally DOES give out on me, I only hope that the arranger manufacturers have learned how to put such a high quality key-bed in a composite shell, and then, finally, I'll have the best of both worlds.

But if the continued emphasis on weight, weight, weight, never mind the consequences, continues, THAT is the only thing they will work on. I just try to present another concern...... Yamaha's current top of the line, $4000 arranger has a key-bed that compares poorly to sub-$1000 synths. If they feel an inexpensive synth needs a mid-level quality key-bed, why do they feel that arranger players deserve any less?

Why so many people want something new ???
Do you care about playing music , or just wait for new products to appear....
If I'd had Tyros 1, i wouldn't even wait for next model for about 10 years !!!
Keyboards are not cars.

If you were referring to the Tyros1, I might agree with you, but I think you meant the T2, and in that case I strongly disagree.

Personally, I feel the T2 has a superior action to the competition, ...but I am willing to concede the G70 is probably a close second...

I also wouldn't waste my money on either of them as they are vastly overpriced although at the rate that Yamaha is selling T2s you wouldn't think it.

I'm not sure how well the G70 is selling, but from what I hear from dealers in Canada, it isn't exactly leaping off the shelves...but that might be due to Roland's poor marketing system.

Yamaha has nailed that great combination of quality key feel,the exceptional sound of the SA and Mega voices, and a relatively lightweight and high quality case in the Tyros2, and the number of satisfied customers(including the ones on this forum) seems to bear that out.

If the Tyros2 had been born with 76 keys, I'm sure there would be one sitting proudly on Diki's keyboard stand and this banter would not have taken place...you'd be so busy playing, you just wouldn't have the time to write.

All the best,

Ian






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Cha d’dhùin doras nach d’fhosgail doras.

You are, of course, perfectly entitled to your opinion, especially given your admission that you play very gently, but if you search the posts here at SZ, you will find I am nowhere near the only person that has commented about the poor T2 action, nor praised the G70's.

But I try not to be a rabid defender of what I have..... There are MANY things from the T2 I would LOVE to be able to use, but also many things I dislike. The same with the G70. If you surf over to the Danish G70 site, you will see I give Roland a VERY hard time about some of their bone-headed decisions (I'm moderator for the Bug forum, amongst other things), and have talked about them here at SZ, too.

MINE is not he best arranger ever, but unfortunately, neither is anything else yet (or I would own it!).....

Now if I could combine the T2's SA and Mega voices, Break/Fill, and multi pads with the Korg's detailed voice editing and sample import, TC Helion and very contemporary drum samples, with the G70's V-Drums and GrandX piano patch, VK-series B3 sim, OS and layout, and of course the action(!), add in the MS's and Wersi's VSTi ability and sample RAM speed loading, wrap it up in a composite shell to bring the total weight down to about 25lbs, and top it of with a dollop of Chord Sequencer features, well, THEN i probably wouldn't have a thing to post about, I'd be too busy playing!

Next year in Jerusalem, eh....?!

Well, Diki, if I could find something with all those features, I wouldn't have time to post either.

All the best to you,

Ian

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Cha d’dhùin doras nach d’fhosgail doras.

Dang! I got called a bunch of dirty rotten things for saying that about Tyros back in 2003.

Danny


[This message has been edited by pianodano (edited 02-16-2007).]

You were right about it, just the same Danny.

I wasn't on this site way back then...or I would have defended you.

Ian



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Cha d’dhùin doras nach d’fhosgail doras.

Ian,

It didn't originate here but at SVPworld and then continued here. I bought the Tyros because somebody at Yamaha tech support told me it was the end all be all PROFESSIONAL keyboard. Yup something like that is just what he said.

It took only a couple months to realize I was hoodwinked.

But thanks though.

Danny

I understand, Danny, my hood has been winked a few times as well.

If only they would have improved and expanded the PSR-9000 Pro, along with more factory support, there be a truly pro arranger on our keyboard stands today.

Ian

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Cha d’dhùin doras nach d’fhosgail doras.

Well, at least this shows we're not the crazy 'my arranger, right or wrong' crowd......

The more we voice publicly what we are dissatisfied with in our current arranger, the more likely the manufacturers are to addressing our needs. But Yamaha seem to be believing their own, and the 'crazies' hype more than listening to what we ACTUALLY want....

Maybe the T2 IS perfect as is, and doesn't EVER need updates (or even many bugfixes!), but I don't see a lot of WELL REASONED evidence for that! Just the pack, yipping away.....

Oh Great Yamaha...we worship your superior workmanship, your triumphant SA voices and faultless OS.



Lead us on to PSR-S900 and the yet to come Tyros 3.

We keep the faith, baby...woof woof!

Ian

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Cha d’dhùin doras nach d’fhosgail doras.

Well, it ain't no arranger but I think Neko has just about got it right now.
http://www.openlabs.com/products/product_info-neko64.htm

Prior to Tyros, I have been a lifelong advocate and supporter of Yamaha. BUT my Tyros convinced me to do otherwise for the rest of my life. At least to the tune of $30 to 50K in lost revenue for them someone else will have to makeup.

As I said then (2003) the thing should have been recalled. It is just a major cluster. I for sure did not buy the C3 diskclavier grand I dreamed of for years for my studio and absolutely won't be buying a Tyros 2, 3 or any other incarnation of the thing. In other words, they (Yamaha) and all their staunch supporters that tried so hard to convince me what a idiot I was totally pi**ed me off. Normally I would never hold a grudge but Yamaha is just way to big, they know what they dumped on the market and some of us were able to put 2 and 2 together. Forgive me gentlemen for I know this is an arranger forum and there are quite a few here that make money with it by selling it or their music. But that shouldn't mean I am forced to say nice things when it is not warranted and I know otherwise regarding it's (Tyros)capabilites.

[This message has been edited by pianodano (edited 02-16-2007).]

Hey, Danny, it is good to hear you speak your mind.

I can relate to your dissatisfaction with a product...I didn't like the Tyros1 either.

Some products are just brought to market too soon, or too many corners are cut to assure a bigger profit...

I stopped using Roland gear, back in the days of the E-series, after several horrible and embarrasing failures in the middle of jobs that cost me money, and dented my reputation...it's probably better made stuff today, but I'd never take the chance again.

The Neko looks interesting, but I'm afraid it's not a product that would serve my purposes....I need an arranger.

If you do get one, it will be interesting to hear your views on it.

Ian

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Cha d’dhùin doras nach d’fhosgail doras.

Diki -

You don't happen to play solo guitar too, do you? I was in Destin a couple years ago and sat in with a solo guitarist. We sang a Crosby, Stills and Nash tune together.

zuki