Anyone from Yamaha, Korg, GEM, Roland or any other major companies could tell me the reason behind a scientific learning curve for professional workstations (Motif and such) and RELATIVELY no learning curve for professional arrangers? They all have somewhat same features in most cases anyway.

I have a feeling that this is one of the main reasons people don't wanna get into pro workstations; because they just wanna make music and not a rocket and don’t wanna spend months of learning (sometimes without a success). If it takes a huge headache and numerous hours on some idea that you want to implement in your song - is it really worth it?

I wonder why whoever creates pro wks making them so hard to learn? Taking into consideration that artists, in most cases, don't have this mind set of figuring out technical things of the instrument.

Imagine John Lennon would get Motif ES he would throw it out of the window due a frustration he would get out of it! He can write songs? Of course! Would he create one with Motif? I don’t think so

ENGINEERS: CAN YOU PLEASE CONSIDER ARTISTS MIND SET AS OPPOSE TO ENGINEERS AND ROCKET SCIENTISTS???

Man, writing songs to engineers is a rocket science, and to create music workstations to artists is a rocket science too. Can this have a combined existence??? Maybe engineers should invite artists when creating their “toys” or at least not only these forums but make instruments based on artists’ feedback.

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New Yorker

Amen Brother, I couldn't agree with you more! And I own a Motif ES...

Not trying to say this as a disagreement at all to what you said New Yorker, but I wonder what could be done differently without sacrificing features. I'm trying to imagine the Motif with a better OS, ( I'm sure there are improvements that could be done ) but I'm not exactly sure what I would do or where I would start.. Perhaps better access from the main screen and buttons, ala the Fantom. I know I'd have liked a bigger and better screen, but I can live with what's there.

I really don't have problems accessing any of the ES features or using them to this point. I haven't done any sampling on the new ES yet, but I did some sampling on the original I had, and while I struggled at first, I was able to use the function just fine once I understood it.

To this point it's been fairly easy, but then again, in spite of some added features, it isn't radically different from it's predecessor. It did take me a good deal of time to be able to understand and effectively use the original version.

What I want to do is start from scratch, by mixing and matching my real time play with the arps and patterns, including arps that I make from scratch ( real easy to do and quite effective vs I think vs trying to make arranger styles). I can set arps up to follow a progression of my choosing. I find this to be much easier and more intuitive to do on the ES than on any arranger, especially the PA80. The 2000 was better at it, and the multi pads were available to add some flavor, but I still find the Motif to be better geared to composing. Ok, I'll grant that the arranger can be lightning fast in comparison if you are willing to use the preset styles as they are, but that isn't what I want to do at all.

This is not a criticism that is directed at anybody in particular, or toward anyone at all, and I hope it isn't offensive, but I think part of it too is that we need certain skills to create the music, and that includes at the ability to play the instrument, unless of course one wants to make an entire tune up using the preset phrases and / or samples, or by adding external phrases . Even then, knowledge of and a feel for how music is put together is needed.

AJ

Well, I'm still from the camp that says the Motif o/s absolutely is the most unintuitive piece of gear I have ever owned including my computers. Nothing ever works the way I think it should and go about doing it. to me it never follows a logical pattern FOR ME and the way I think.

Today I spent over an hour trying to get voices changed and saved in a pattern with zero success. I read posts and the manual, stored them, saved the template, yet every time I switched sections they went back to the original voices.

This board does not need to be this complex to use. I applaud all those that get it and say this is a no brainer, but for the rest of us mere mortals it is one royal pain in the head.
Terry

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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 11-06-2003).]

Terry,

I'm not sure what you are doing or how, but I have no problem whatsoever with this. It takes me about 5 seconds to save it. It's easy to do. Go to pattern mode. Go to mixer. Set your mixer settings up however you prefer. Press the store button. The screen should say "Mix store to current pattern". press enter. Your changes are saved.

The changes aren't saved in internal rom, aqnd I don;t think there is any CC data written to a user pattern by pressing store, meaning that any changes you make to a pattern will be gone when you power down and power up again. However, the template settings are stored, so.. you'll have to modify a template before you power down.

Go from mixer to job, then press f6, then decide which template you want to overwrite, and press the put button. The template data should now be saved. When you power upm again and load your pattern from disk, if the mixer data isn;t right, go to job, then template, find the template, and press "get". All should be well.

Hope this helps. If I'm not uunderstanding you clearly or there is anything else that I help you with or that we can walk through together, feel free to drop me an email and if you would like we can exchange phone numbers as well.

AJ




[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 11-06-2003).]

During the 29 days that I owned a Motif - when they first hit the market - I was of the same mind-set as Terry, and would have to agree with him that it IS the most UN-intuitive piece of gear I have ever used.

Not to say that it isn't a great unit - I discovered a world of features on the demo DVD which Yammy sent me 6 months after I returned the unit - it's just that it's structured in a totolly different manner to any other board I'd ever played.

Terry will back me up on this... I returned the unit because "I didn't want to work that hard to make music". Not because of lack of fetures or technology. Jsut playing a midi file required loading a GM template and then matching up tracks to songs, and so on. duh ????

Would I buy one now, having seen the DVD and got a little more insight into it's use... probably, but I'd still a hve to say that the PA80 I bought instead was so-o-o much easier to learn and get up and running.

Regards,
Steve

Yep.. there's an issue... I forgot about the midifile deal 'til now, because I haven't really bothered to play a GM midifile with the Es.

Again, my original post wasn't to say that you guys are wrong.. but rather to say that to this point I'm navigating the ES with little problem, just using it as a studio tool, and for real time playing on it. I'm pretty happy with the whole package, but I'm sure that there are things in the OS that I will find to be annoying, especially if I bring it out to play live with.

I created a topic related to this a few months back.. something to the effect of "using all of these tools together" and trying to make it work with little effort. I know midi pretty well, yet I still find myself in lala land with some of it at times.

It's not just the Motif. I find my PA80 to be a very user friendly live play tool and I'm likely in the minority on that but hey.. I like the OS. I don't, however, find it to be all that user friendly in the studio at times. What doesn't help matters at all is that there is no external editing software for patches like the Motif has and XG editing for the Yamaha arrangers. Although the PA80 pattern sequencer has useful functions, the menu screens and the layout gets very annoying, and it doesn't recognize midi sync. When it comes down to it, I don't find the midi " standard " to be very standard at all

I actually found the PSR2000 to be the most user friendly board in the studio for me. Unfortunately, the tradeoffs of poor key feel, being locked into set patternss with multipads locked in the same octave split, lack of deep sound editing capabilities and drums that I didn't like, were too much for me to overcome.

AJ



[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 11-06-2003).]

AJ,
Not sure how that works for you, but it does not work on my ES 8. It's there when I come back from storing it, but as soon as I switch sections they are back to the originals. After reading a post from bad mister I know why, because the voice data is saved with the recording and I am trying to change instruments after the recording.
Here's what has to be done in my circumstances:

From Bad Mister:
"Selecting Voices in PATTERN Mode:
You have the choice of selecting a VOICE prior to recording using the MIXER view.

After you record with that Voice the Motif defaults to "remembering" that you used that particular Voice to record the Pattern - it keeps this data in a special location called the "Phrase Header". You must re-write the data that the Motif has in the "Phrase header" if you want to make a change to the Voice - the phrase header contains information about the Pattern's time signature, the phrase length, and the Voice used, also whether or not to transpose, etc. You can 'Change it' or you can 'override it'.

There are two ways to change the data...
"Re-write" or "Override": here are the consequences:

TO REWRITE the phrase header:
Press RECORD: to enter Record Standby
Press F2 Voice: Here you will see the Voice that the Phrase header is remembering. You can use the CATEGORY SEARCH if you wish to select the Bank and Number. You may notice it takes a little longer to recall Voices via this method as the header data is being updated (re-written).
Press STOP to lock in your new selection.

TO OVERRIDE the phrase header: On the Original Motif:
From the main PATTERN screen press F5 TR VCE (Track Voice)
Set PHRASE VOICE to OFF for the current Track: this will make the MIXER "live".

TO OVERRIDE the phrase header: On the Motif ES:
From the main PATTERN screen press F3 TRACK/ SF3 TR VCE
Set the PHRASE VOICE to OFF for the current Track: This will make the MIXER "live".

The consequence is that all Phrases that are placed on this track will have the Voice you select in the MIXER. Which maybe okay...you decide

"TRACK" VOICE and "PHRASE" VOICE are important concepts to understand. When this parameter is set to ON (Phrase Voice applies) each Phrase can recall a different sound without having to use an actual MIDI event in the data list. (Each Section A, B, C, D, etc., could have a different drum kit, or sample Loop, for example, all on the same track...but a different one is recalled for each Section.) It is embedded in the Phrase header - This Phrase Header is a quicker way to recall a Voice than a Program Change - do not put Program Changes in your Pattern data, yikes!!! When the parameter is set to OFF (Track Voice applies) each Track will recall the setting on the MIXER. (The Voice you select in the Mixer will apply for all Sections for the selected Track).

Hope that helps. It's a feature. Without this automatic ‘remembering’, sample data could wind up associated with the wrong MIDI trigger event. Each Section could have a different overdubbed Sample, the sequencer automatically memorizes what trigger event goes with what sample. This (Phrase Voice) links the voice you record with to the Pattern Phrase itself. You can activate your Phrase on any track when Phrase Voice is ON, and it will recall the Voice you "locked in".

The Integrated Sampling Sequencer cannot work without this."

This to me is over the top complex wise and should be made simplier IMO. I'm not sure but it seems to me the programmers took the easy way out on the programming at the cost of more complexity at the user's level.

I like the Motif ES alot but do find it very frustrating to operate as it does not think as I think. I use it as the controller for my Tyros now and so am playing it exclusively. It's a keeper for the moment until the next have to have board comes out....perhaps a "Liontracks."

You seem to be more techie oriented AJ, then alot of the rest of us are. You grasped the Mo classic and PA better than most do.

Thanks for the help offer, appreciated.
Terry

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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

[This message has been edited by trtjazz (edited 11-07-2003).]

You know what the problem is? The problem is in complete distance (mind wise and maybe location wise) from wks and arranger depts with each other.

I have a feeling that these 2 depts, which are completely 2 separate units within a company like 2 different worlds, don't wanna deal with each other because each and everyone of them feel superior to each other. Instead of benefiting from both worlds they made themselves like 2 different manufacturers.

I am sure we would see a different product if both departments would work on Motif ES: we would see the best machine ever with arranger capabilities and ease of use.

Someone asked what would you like to have in arranger? This one like I described above!!!

Yamaha: are you reading this????

Ok Terry, Now I see what you meant. I guess it shouldn't have to be this way, but this is a prime example of why I use the external sequencer more often than not, and simply set up my voices from there ( patch / bank changes ) . Unfortunately, that doesn't help at all when you want to use the pattern sequencer does it ? Nope..
I find it to be easier and quicker for me to just turn everything into an arp anyway, so I'm not using the pattern sequencer for anyhting other than a place to record midi data that becomes a user arp. No pattern chaining for me..


I don't wanna try to turn this into the Motifator 2 forum, so I'm gonna refrain from too many of my own gripes, but I will throw two back out there. The plug in boards default to "on" in the sequencer. This is very annoying because channels 1 and 2 ( I have 2 plug ins ) play both the plug in and internal voice data at the same time. Of course I can change it but it's still an extra step. Gripe 2.. the key feel... but I knew this going in and was planning on getting a seperate controller rather than the es 7.

New Yorker.. It seems like it has always been this way with yamaha, and done on purpose too. The company itself does seem to gop to great lengths to sperate it's arranger users from it's workstation users. Unfortunately ofr me, though Yamaha has ticked me off more than a few times, I can't find a workstation that I think sounds better than the Motif, otherwise I would have bought it.

AJ

Aj & NY,
This is a fact not only with Yamaha but I suspect all the board companies (or many others too) they are in competition not cooperation.

Aj add to the plg saga, trying to pick something to use in pattern mode from one of the plg boards...and that's an hour excursion into the menus to make it happen.

I like this board very much but the o/s to ME sucks the worst of anything I have ever owned, including my computers.
Terry

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jam on,
Terry http://imjazzed.homestead.com/Index.html

AJ,
I'm WITH you on the PA80 !! I LIKE it for the most part. It does what it does well, and like most other boards, most of it comes down to preference. As you know, I've converted hundreds of [public domain] program formats over to the PA80, so I've spent quite a bit of time inside the PA - yes, I hate the stupid menu nav, but once you get it down, it's no better or worse than the PSR's.

I don't intend to start a side-thread/discussion here, but ALL arrangers basically provide the same function (as do workstations) for better or worse. It irks me when I hear "The horns on the PA80 suck", or "The Mo's acoustic piano is mediocre". That's conjecture and opinion, and can be discussed at great lenght. Some will definitely spend time arguing whether "That's a fact Jack !". LOL

ALL OS'es have flaws. None are perfect. NONE !! No-one'd make any more boards if they were !! That's why one should try them all out before you decide to buy. It's what I did when I briefly owned the Mo'. I didn't like the OS once I dug into it more - so it went back. However, FWIW, I have to admit that the keys (at least on the unit I got) had the best darn feel of ANY board of that size or price range - bar none !! I'm not sure I'd want to try to convince the wife that I want to buy the perfect workstation/arranger that just came on the market - ONLY $6000 each. Ha !! It was tough enuf with my other's !! LOL

The PA has done fine for me when I've used it live - and it's a whole heck of a lot lighter than my Triton Studio too !!
Regards,
Steve

[This message has been edited by S0C9 (edited 11-07-2003).]