Greetings all, and that includes you too Grandpa Doug Well sir, I had the chance to talk to a Key technical representative from Technics on Saturday and I took that opportunity. The establishment that has the KN7000 that I was considering had their Grand Opening this weekend and Chris Hanlon and his assistant from Technics were there to help kick off the celebration. Chris was very gracious to take time from his busy schedule and talk to me about my concerns with the KN7000. Golly, I must have spoken to him for a good 45 minutes. I told him my story about how I was thinking about purchasing the KN7000, in fact, it was perched no more than two feet away from where we were standing. I told him how I had heard from many seasoned Musicians how the KN7000's Vocal Harmonizer was inept in its duty to perform and function in a relatively acceptable manner. And when I say a "relatively acceptable manner" I mean that the Harmony sounds, ie., (voice reproductions) emanating from the speakers were reasonably authentic and realistic and clean sounding. Right off the bat he agreed with me. He realised that, yes, the KN7000's Vocal Harmonizer is less than adequate and he shared my frustrations. He told me that Technics for whatever reason decided to devote the majority of resources for the KN7000, eg., CPU, PCM Voice samples, Keyboard layout, and OS Navigation; on ease of use and in the Sounds of the Keyboard. And that is the KN7000's strong points, ie., the sounds and ease of use.

I was even able to hook up a Microphone to the KN7000's Mic In and test the Harmonizer for myself. Right away I could tell that the Harmonizer was sub-par.

I let Chris know that had the Harmonizer been up to par I would have purchased the KN7000 that day. I also told him that there were many Musicians out there that if the KN7000's Vocal Harmonizer was decent they would have purchased it too but instead opted for the Tyros or one of the other High End Arrangers. He and his assistant "Dan" agreed with me that the Tyros's Vocal Harmonizer is probably the best one out there on an Arranger Keyboard. I told him that Yamaha dedicated a separate CPU chip to the Vocal Harmonizer, a fact he seemed to be unaware of. Even my PSR 2000's Vocal Harmonizer runs circles around the KN7000's IMO.

I don't think Chris Hanlon was aware either of the fact that so many people had passed on buying the KN7000 because of its poor performing Harmonizer. So in my telling him about those facts I was bringing a major concern of people to the "fore front" of an influential person "Chris Hanlon" of Technic's technical and production personnel. Hopefully my words to him will have an impact and Technics will eventually improve their technology and produce an excellent Vocal Harmonizer on their KN series Keyboards.

I also wanted to mention that Chris's assitant Dan, when I asked him about the possibility of a KN7500 appearing next year, told me that they hope to have a prototype on display at Winter NAMM 2004. When I asked Chris when he thought the KN8000 would be out he said it would probably be a few years. NOTE: You know the word: "few" could mean as little as '2' years don't you?

So the conclusion to all of this is that Technics lost 'another' potential customer because of the quality "or lack thereof" in the KN7000's Vocal Harmonizer. And I told Chris Hanlon that. But the encouraging news is that a top Technics Keyboard product specialist heard my spiel and I am looking forward to the day when a KN series Keyboard will have an outstanding Vocal Harmonizer on it. When that day does come I will be the first in line to check it out and most likely would purchase it if it does. But not until then. Sorry Technics.

PS: The reason I want and need a decent Vocal Harmonizer "ON" "IN" the Keyboard is because: 1. I sing, 2. Because an onboard Harmonizer is less hassle with the setting up and breaking down that would be the case with an external unit, 3. Ease of use where everything is at your 'immediate' fingertips, and 4. Vocal Harmony technology is progressing by leaps and bounds so why should I settle for a sub-par Harmonizer on ANY Keyboard?.

Those that don't sing I would tell them in a heartbeat to buy the KN7000. But those that sing and want to use an onboard Harmonizer I would tell them to get an Arranger Keyboard that has a decent built-in Harmonizer and pass on the KN7000. These are all MY thoughts and opinions and I am sure there are those who won't agree with me. To whom I say: Wake up and face reality! Ha, ha, he, he, LOL.. Just kidding. Although there is a ring of truth to that statement. lol.

Final Evaluation: The KN7000 is a great sounding Keyboard with a sub standard Vocal Harmonizer. As if we didn't already know, right?

Best regards,
Mike

Mike,

I was wondring what you wanted to do with a Kn7000 that you cannot do with the Psr2000?

Donny, I don't know if you've played the KN7000 or not but the sounds on it are just amazing. Especially the Organ sounds and I'm a BIG fan of Organ sounds. I play them quite often in my musical arrangements. The other big thing over my PSR 2000 is the SD Memory Card storage capability. The SD Memory capacity is up to 1 Gigabyte size Cards now and pretty soon they will be "8" Gigabytes in size. Sampling capability is another big thing. Also the KN7000 has 128 note Polyphony which is double that of my PSR 2000. I've pretty much decided I will not buy another 64 note Arranger so unless Korg changes the specs of the Pa1X before mass production to bump up that pathetic 62 note Polyphony to at least 128 I will most likely pass on the Pa1X too. I've thought about getting the Motif ES 7 but I don't like the fact that it's not an Arranger and of course it doesn't have onboard speakers. Although if I got the Mo' 7, onboard speakers on it wouldn't be necessary because I would keep my PSR 2000 and use it when wanting to get ideas for songs, etc. So my options are very limited right now on an Arranger that has great onboard speakers, great sounds, at least 128 note Polyphony, and SD or SM mass storage capabitity. SD Memory is preferred over, let's say, Smart Media because of SM's smaller storage capacity spec., ie., 128Mb "Maximum". And I would prefer 76 Keys on my next Arranger but that's not a must have. If I could get all of those things in an Arranger I wouldn't have to spend extra dough on your typical Workstation to suppliment for use in my Band. I would be killing two birds with one stone if I could get everything I need 'musically' in "one" Arranger Keyboard. But the one thing the KN7000 lacked imo is a decent Vocal Harmonizer else you would be speaking to a proud KN7000 owner right now Donny.

Best regards,
Mike

[This message has been edited by Idatrod (edited 08-24-2003).]

Mike,

I am an ex Kn5k player but have since changed KB's many times .....but when I played the Kn7k months ago when it came out I was dissapointed, due to the useless Mic/Vocalizer input, and the Sunken Designed keybed [to allow the control panel to sit flush when folded].. which hindered my playing due to the low and high C being set so low back into the body which doesn't allow any space for your fingers to stretch out above the body. Also I didn't like the tilt up control board in realtime being up instead of the conventional laying flat like most KB's making navagation difficult for fast changes. Another problem is switching between the Sd card, and live arranger Modes in realtime its not that smooth, all these things weren't my cup of tea for my style of playing.
It had a nice sound, some styles were just too busy for my taste....seemed like more of a Home use KB to me.

Theres nothing that excites me out now, but if I were you I would just hold back, save your money, and wait and see what turns up down the road for now.



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 08-24-2003).]

The PSR740 doesn't have a separate chip for the Vocal Harmoniser. It's on the synth engine chip (SWP30B as used on several other synths) along with the voice samples and effects. I imagine all the other PSRs are similar. Just shows that Yamaha make a better synth engine.

Bryan

Stick with the Yammies and you can't go wrong! The best advice I can give anyone in the market for a new keyboard is to place them side by side, play them right out of the box with no tuning, then decide which sounds best. IMHO the Yammies come out well ahead of the competition.

Cheers,

Gary

Hi Mike

"I've thought about getting the Motif ES 7 but I don't like the fact that it's not an Arranger and of course it doesn't have onboard speakers"

If it sounds that good and you don't mind carrying a laptop you could use Jos Maas' onemanband program.

I wish we could get all styles from all companies in a laptop and then use any midi keyboard to perform. Add sheet music on the screen and hmmmm.. sounds good to me right now anyway. It could mean traveling with only one keyboard.

Scott Langholff

Get the PSR2100 and the HDM2 so you won't miss the lack of hard drive so much. The HDM2 is an excellent unit.

Beakybird

Just my three cents worth. I have a Tyros, and while it seems i have a bad vocal processer and have to return it, my preference for vocalizer is the Ketron. Either the X1, or SD1 are one of the best i've heard and used. Bob

Well Mike,
I hope Technics is listening.
You have to be able to get exactly what you want, or it's not worth swapping over. One day some manufacturer will make exactly what you're after.
Fortunately for me, a voice processor is not a requirement, so the kn is perfect for me. I for instance found some functions that I was not happy with on my 9000 pro ( mainly to do with style editing & creation, in which the kn7 shines) So after 2 years, out of the blue, I ended up selling it a couple of days ago. It was a fantastic keyboard, great voice processor, but, not 100% perfect for me, but, it appears that it was just what the fellow who bought it, was looking for. So it worked out great.

best wishes
Rikki

I used to be a devoted KN/Technics myself. Heck, my dad used to be a sole dealership overseas for many years before.

A few things that steer me away from Techics:

1. After playing it for over 15 years. Yes, the sounds improved significantly, but I was ready for a change (and it was NOT easy).

2. PRICE

3. Attitude from salesperson at the dealership. I was trying out one of the boards before. In the middle of my playing, he asked me "Are you going to buy this keyboard?" I'm like "why" he answered "cause these people may be interested in buying". Mind you, I play well..even the people behind me were listening to my playing.

4. KN6000 was my last (technics)keyboard- It was broken for a while. When I tried the harmonizer on that thing, I thought the harmnonizer broke since it sounded so distorted and bad.

I don't know why a company as big as Technics can overlook something like this (harmonizer). I don't know how many people turned away (meaning...they lose money off course) from buying this because of a bad harmonizer.

But my dad also told me (long time ago)...that when he was a Yamaha dealer- the people in Japan was much more supportive towards the dealers, etc..and much more intuned to what people want. Not so for Technics. All they wanted was push sales, but not supportive to their dealers.

Okay...enough of my ranting...just bored

Wondering: The Wheaties add on T.V. states it has 100 percent of 12 daily requirements, and no other company can say that. TRUE
Does this imply that Kelloggs the largest cerial manafacturer in the world, with a
R&D department larger than Wheaties entire
cerial factory, just simply, does not know how to include 100 percent of the same daily
requirements, into their product. I don't
think so-------By the same token; do you think that Technics (Pansonic) one of the
largest manufacturers in the world, just
simply don't know how to design and include
a first class harmonizer on their KN-7000.
I don't think so. There simply must be a
very good and sound reason for their decision
that prevokes a "thread like this." Maybe if you looked at the sales record of the 7000
you would find they sure did something right.
The O.S. and superior sounds are what makes it sell like "wildfire." To the great
majority of us out here, buying this stuff, a
harmonizer don't mean "diddle squat",
because 99% of us can't and don't sing a note.
Nuff said, hope I've struck a Chord or Two.
Have a great day everyone------------ARJ

Relating to Vocal Harmonisers. When I spoke to a Technics demonstrator at this past Sping 7 day Keyboard festival in the UK. He stated they could improve the Harmoniser, but its all down to costing, meaning if you want a far better VH on the KN's you are going to pay more for it.
I am not a Technics fan, but in fairness to the KN7000, the Tyros is a lot more money here in the UK. (approx £700 Uk Pounds)
All board manufactures are in tight competition, so all are keen to appear to give the best value. Some boards which have many facilities for their price have to drop something else, poor cheap tacky keyboards is one example. (no names mentioned)

Graham UK


[This message has been edited by Graham UK (edited 08-25-2003).]

So if the Kn7k cost XXXX amount now....to add a quality vocalizer/mic input to possibly an Kn8k would jack the price up even further approaching $4grand+.... Yikes!!

What nerve. The Technics keyboards are already the highest marked up insturments of the bunch! In truth, a kn7k cost about the same as a Tyros or a loaded PA80, but the street prices are through the roof! If they truly want to expand their market...they need to add more pro-friendly features...like a quality harmonizer.

I guess the home kb stores have enough success with the outrageous price schemes, but if you found an MI dealer that had the line... you could buy a kn without the gorging that takes place in other piano stores.

I'm not knocking the profit deal.... just the mentality of NOT advertising a true list price for the customers. Most stores mark them up as much as they want, and no one can argue the ammount. I'm all in favor of fair profit, but I can't advocate "made up" numbers in a market so full of fine competitors.

If Panasonic really wants the pro market, they could have it in a second. They just need to address our needs a little better. I believe they stay away from the pro market because they make more money in the home market. Simple business. Pros are a pain to deal with anyway. Bargain shoppers, broke alot, trading in worn out gear. We're the ones using these everyday in the trenches, and I suppose we're not the "poster kids" that Panasonic wants as spokespeople.

Different strokes, but without a "real" harmonizer ...... the kn series is for different folks than THIS folk!

My 2 cents worth.... I have a kn6000 and bought it 'sight unseen', 'sound unheard' and was TOTALLY disappointed in the harmonizer .. BUT ... that was my fault for not listening to it first... however, the sounds, ease of use, etc. were enough to make me happy ... HOWEVER, as a fan of technics, I feel they are doing a dis-service to buyers or potential buyers by equipping their boards with a USELESS harmonizer .... either put in a good one or get rid of the one that's in there ...
t.

Mike,
Thank you for this excellent review and sharing your discussions with Chris Hanlon. I always enjoy your reviews as they are very informative.
Starkeeper

To shift the discussion away from the harmonizers to meat and potatoes of arranger keyboarding:

- does KN7000 have 4 variations per style or is it still two?
- does it still only have 2 intros and endings per style?
- does it have support for unlimited-size memory card (or is it limited to 256 MB as some Japanese products are)?
- It was also my understanding that its "music stylist" was not programmable, unlike music database on the Yamahas. Is there an equivalent function to that?
- Does EMC style conversioni program include support for the Technics' styles? I recall that Technics told EMC not to include suçport for KN6000, for fear of litigation. Has this changed?

Here in the US the only prices I see on Technics kbs are the ones posted at the local dealers', as Technics does not allow Internet advertizing of prices. At the local store the salesman was using the typical car-sales tactic - "retail of $6999[that's in US Dollars], but if you buy now, we will give it to you for $5000". As I turn around to leave, he says "just spoke with my manager and will give it to you for a one-time special price of $4000 - that's almost half price" I am pretty sure I could bargain the price down more, but that is still higher than Tyros

Technics is not my cup of tea - I think that many of its styles are too oriented for German market - lots of accordions, organs, etc. I also don't like the their sounds - to my ears they don't sound as good as Yamaha's or Roland's or Ketron's - that is my subjective opinion. But the company attitude towards sales process and the customers, putting the customers in the adversarial relationship with the dealer, is just plain wrong. If I were to negotiate the price down to areasonable level, does it mean that the shop owner would provide me with less service if I should need it? (the sales assistance is already poor, with the salesman - a man in his 50s who likely spent his whole life selling musical instruments by day and used cars by night - not knowing about key features of the instrument)

IMO (as a computer engineer), the SD card is a replacement for the floppy drive, not hard drive, as its storage capacity does not come close to that of an affordable hard drive today. But then Technics does not expect their customers to care about the concept of "affordable". Besides adding the extra weight and expanding the size of the instrument to accommodate the now unneeded floppy drive, the main purpose of including both media devices is to bamboozle the not-so-technically-savvy customers into thinking that the instrument can compete with the others which have a hard drive.

I am not going along with that.

Regards,
Alex

Your so right Gary......Besides the great sound... don't forget the Glorious "LIGHTWEIGHT" of the Psr2000 KB!

I looked at and played both the KN7000 and Tyros keyboards. Since I do not sing, I did not consider the harmonizer in my evaluation.
I decided to purchase a Tyros for the following reasons:

1. The ignorance and deceptive sales practices of the local Technics dealer.
The dealer told me the manufacturer's list price of the KN7000 was $7,000 and his discounted price was $5,000. When I told him the price was a joke, he told me he would be willing to sell it to me "under the table" for $4,000 cash. He also said that in Europe the KN7000 is selling for $14,000 US dollars. He also made many false claims about the capabilities and specifications of the keyboard. It was obvious that he was not familiar with the keyboards features or thought I was an idiot.

2. I thought the sounds were very good on both keyboards. I thought the Technics were better on some, and the Yamaha better on others.

3. I liked the Yamaha styles better.
The Yamaha had better contempory styles. Their guitar strumming and the use of drum fills gave their styles a more realistic feel to them. The Technics big band styles were very good but the Yamaha's were prety close.

4. It appears that the music finder database on the Yamaha is more flexible than the music stylist on the Technics. I was not able to change any of the default values (example tempo) on the Technics music stylist settings. Everytime I called up a selection, I had to change the tempo and other values. This makes the feature not very useful. With the Yamaha music finder database, you can modify any of the settings and save the database.

5. It appears there are more tools available on the internet to work with the Yamaha. I have found programs for editing the music finder database with a PC and other useful utilities.

Overall, I thougt the keyboards were very close. I gave an edge to the Tyros.

Even if I liked the KN7000 better, I decided that I never would buy a keyboard from such an ignorant and dishonest dealer.

Hi,
I find it amazing that everyone keeps talking about how expensive technics keyboards are in comparison to other brands.
Here in Aust. they have a recommended retail of $7,000AUD. I managed to get mine for just over $4,000 brand new for cash ( meaning NO Trade in, NOT cash under the counter)
The Tyros which retails for possibly just a fraction more, would have cost me between $5,200 & $5,500 in short, I would have been paying 20% more to get a Tyros, and from the same dealer.

Obviously it pays to shop around, and not accept the first price quoted.

best wishes
Rikki

Hi,
actually pretty clever of technics. Obviously if one wants Technics styles from KN6000 up, one has to buy a KN keyboard. There again it hasn't stopped Technics owners KN6,7 from being able to convert styles from other manufactures as it has style conversion facilities on board via a program supplied on floppy disk. Styles converted via EMC to kn5 format can also be played on kn6,7.
To my mind, KN7 has some of the best & easiest to use style editing & style creation features available.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Alex K:
- Does EMC style conversioni program include support for the Technics' styles? I recall that Technics told EMC not to include suç°¯rt for KN6000, for fear of litigation. Has this changed?

"Obviously it pays to shop around, and not accept the first price quoted."
best wishes
Rikki

This is another problem with Technics (in USA) I can only buy it from the dealer in my area. I tried to get quotes from dealers in other areas, I was told their contract with Technics prohibits them from selling to a customer in another dealers region.
Even if I could find an out-of-town dealer willing to violate this contract provision,
I would still have issues if the keyboard needed service.

There are many places I can buy a Yamaha keyboard from. (George Kay, Dano, etc..)

Yamaha's pricing and dealer network makes it easier to buy a keyboard at a competitive price.

I need to weigh in here. I work at a Retail Piano store in Sacramento and I sell Technics. I also Own a KN7000. I speak with the Technics Rep (Dan Uter) on a fairly regular basis, and I also speak with Chris Halon at times. I would tend to agree about griping about retail cost of the KN7000. The 'List" is really whatever we want it to be- but I have never sold a kn7000 for over 3,200$. Usually I will sell it for $3000 out the door. You cannot blame techincs for the way the dealers act. Make an offer. If a dealer is stupid and rejects it, then tell him to go stick the keyboard -you know where- and go buy one from me or Ebay. Technics has been very active as of late in trying to break into the MI market (guitar center etc) the problem is that the market is so saturated with other brands that Guitar Center cannot carry them. Yamaha and Roland and Korg pitched a fit because they knew that if a KN7000 was in guitar center for $2600 then they would lose ALOT of sales. So Technics has stuck the KN7000 in the "Home Market" for now. They really have no other option.


On the Harmonizer subject: Please do us a favor and do not buy the KN7000. If you are dumb enough to base purchasing a 7000 on the Harmonizer ability then you are missing a screw in your head. Get a dedicated unit. Trust me- They are much better than ones you will find in keyboards (yes even Ketron and Yamaha). I believe the KN series has a "midi implementation patch" with the Digitech Vocalist workstation as well just for that purpose. Also- If you dont know how to sing- then the Mic input will sound pretty bad regardless of the harmonizer feature. Why anyone would think that a 9000pro or Tyros is better than a 7000 because it has a better harmonizer is beyond me. What really matters to me is that you cannot even assign MIDI tracks on a tyros or 9000pro (such as drums to track 10). That is a basic MIDI function and it has been left out intentionally by Yamaha. That to me is a bigger problem than a crappy harmonizer,

My 2 cents. Ben

Actually, the joke is on the owners of Technics keyboards (this is as clever as requiring owners of the Technics keyboards which did accept hard drives to purchase the extremely overpriced drive assembly from a single supplier from Germany).

What this policy does is to deprive owners of the KN7000 keyboards from being able to play converted styles while taking advantage of the improved 7000-series sounds - I guess you have to do manual editing to do that.

I am glad you are enjoying your keyboard. Perhaps you could also address my other questions from that e-mail (e.g. the number of intros, endings, fill per style, what is the limit of the SD-card memory supported, etc.)

Regards,
Alex

4 variations, 2 fills, 2 intros/endings. Memory capacity is unlimited with SD.

and thats 2 fills and intros/endings PER variation.

biggest sd card available as of now is 1 gig. 4 gig next year and 8 gig year after that. Solid state. No noise. No moving parts.

At $349 for a 1 gig sd card compared to the price of a hard drive...and with much more space on it the thing can make as much noise as it wants to! Nay it can sing the Hallelujah chorus.....I'll just play louder Not to give the option of a hard drive at least until sd prices fall is just like technics.

To be fair it is nice to see technics embracing new technology but as a past and once loyal owner of technics boards it has always been a case of paying over the odds for goodies to beef it up.

I find it amusing that people (technics owners?) are so offended at the criticism of the crappy harmoniser. Get real....THEY SHOULD HAVE LEFT IT OFF! As it stands it is an insult. I bought the 6000 when it came out because it was an awesome board at the time....however I and many many owners like me were insensed with the harmoniser that was after all advertised as a pro quality on board harmoniser. The KN6000 forum (remember that!) was full of peeps who felt cheated. There were other probs with the board as well but we won't go into that!

You would have thought that Technics would have learned from that but they left it on the 6500 and as far as I am aware it is exactly the same unit on the 7000?

There has been an adequate harmoniser on Yammie boards since the 8000 and how long ago was that? I have a 9000pro now and to be fair never use the harmoniser but at least I know that should I want to it will function as a harmoniser should.

Don't give me all that twaddle about not buying a board for the harmoniser either cos that is not my beef. I have air conditioning in my car. I don't use it often because I live in cold dark England but should we have a warm day I don't expect to press the button to find that it don't work properly. If the manufacturer says it is there then it better had be when I try it.

Whew....feel better now
In Harmony
Tony W

Hi Alex,
I never bothered with hard drives for earlier models because of price, but my kn7 doesn't need a hard drive . It has a nifty little feature called an sd card. Very portable. Means I can take my little card plug it into any kn7, and I've got my full setup. Amazingly it also gives me audio options, like being able to play mp3's in sync with the kn7's sequencer. Handy for playing audio loops , adding vocals, in fact anything that can be recorded via the kn7's input, can be saved as an audio file and played in sync with the sequencer. Means when I do record an mp3, i'm not stuck with recording it via my crumby laptop's sound card, it actually uses the kn7's.
Editing and replacing sounds is an absolute breeze.
Personally I'm not all that fond of style conversions. The style usually doesn't sound anywhere near as good as it did on the original. i prefer to work from a midifile whenever possible. I used to record my pro 9000 styles as midifiles , then use the sequencer to style function on the kn to create the style. ie Record intro's , variations, fills endings into the chord of c. Takes 5 minutes in steptime. Sold my pro the other day so now I'm using xg works instead. Discovered it does it even quicker. From there I take note of where the differing parts finish and end. Load the midifile into the kn sequencer, and copy the parts into the various composer sections. Again it only takes a few minutes. The more difficult part is getting the sounds and volumes to all blend together. The reason I do it this way, is that I can pick and choose which intro's fills and endings , I want to use. Using EMC the program actually chooses the parts, not me. ie it picks which of the 2 out of 3 intro's on the pro to use. Not necessarily the ones I want. I'll probably do the same thing for any of my VA7 styles I decide to convert.
I've always, from any of my previous keyboards, saved my styles as midifiles as well as the styles themselves, just in case the EMC style convert didn't give quite the result I wanted.
KN7 2 maj intro's, 2 min intro's , 2maj 2min ending's. Fill 1, Fill 2 button , but there's a different fill 1&2 for each variation ( so 8 fills in total)
The highest I've bothered with to date is 256mb. Personally I've split files up onto different cards. ( my choice only) I've got my styles on one card. My audio files on another. And sequencers & midifiles on another. The sd card has a structure of 99 folders. Each folder has 20 locations for saving composer styles , sequences, custom styles, pads etc.
I can save all the above to one of the 20 locations or just one of the files.
My style card. If I actually saved the styles as a composer style, I'd be able to fit 99x 20= 1980 styles, but if I actually save them as custom styles which use far less memory than a composer style(custom is similar to flash styles in the psr) I'd be able to save 99 folders x 20 locations x 20 custom styles = 39,600 custom styles, depending on the cards capacity. I've got over a thousand full composer styles on my 128mb card and it's nowhere near full if I saved them as custom files, they'd barely make a dent.

best wishes
Rikki

it

Hi Tony,
that's a ridiculous price. You need to know where to find them. I buy mine on Ebay but I haven't bothered with anything over 256mb. They go for as low as anywhere between $40 to $70 USD. Just have to be the lucky one to pick it up cheap. Doesn't have to be a Panasonic card either. Mine are Sandisk.

best wishes
Rikki

Hi,
strange isn't it. Don't have that problem here in Sydney ( Aust) I could buy from at least 3 stores that I'm aware of. That's a bit rough I must say.

best wishes
rikki

Quote from Dave: Pros are a pain to deal with anyway. Bargain shoppers, broke alot, trading in worn out gear.

You know, I never thought about it from that angle. A lot of people in my profession, landscape contracting, are bargain hunters, broke alot and have crappie worn-out equipment. They are the ones that are always complaining about the cost of things. Always looking for bargains and winding up with stuff of lesser quality and being enticed with add-on things, are happy with the status quo, and dislike learning new things and ways. Considering that, I can see why that kind of an attitude would lead them to try to justify what they do and have. No wonder these guys who consider themselves pro’s, and are, in their own way, will always try to tell others what’s wrong with their stuff, tell manufactures how stupid they are and how much money they should make. Always finding fault and telling others how things should be done. On the other hand, there are pro’s that are very successful in their endeavors, always have money, and work with the best of tools. I know both kinds. Not only in my profession but in almost all professions there are both kinds and I suppose there always will be. Even on these discussion forums there seems to be a separation of attitudes and purpose. I know some of you guys can’t figure why the people that play that overpriced keyboard made by a manufacture who could care less about add-on harmonizers and blinking colored lights are so enthused and have so much pleasure playing them. In my business I won’t deal with people who are a pain, always looking for a bargain and are also broke most of the time. There are plenty of people with better attitudes out there and therefore are a pleasure to deal with. The same in the professional world. There are professionals and there are professionals. There are manufactures and there are manufactures. There are ways to compete and I choose quality rather than gadgets. If a keyboard, a quality keyboard. If a harmonizer, a quality harmonizer. If a home, a quality home and will buy quality appliances to use with my quality home. Graham UK has got it right as far as competition is concerned. Quote: “All board manufactures are in tight competition, so all are keen to appear to give the best value. Some boards which have many facilities for their price have to drop something else, poor cheap tacky keyboards is one example. (no names mentioned)”. And Arthur R., Quote: “There simply must be a very good and sound reason for their decision that provokes a thread like this”. Yes Art, there must be and the above reflections are my attempt to make some sense out of this. I have other thoughts but sometimes wisdom will shake her finger, no, no. Art, haven’t heard from you for awhile, but what’s your reasoning for this post? To tell you the truth I like the taste of Kellogg's stuff better than Wheaties even with all the extra’s. Maybe that’s why Kellogg is on top? It satisfies better? If I need vitamins, guess I will get what I need rather than a one fits all, type of mentality.

Man, some of you guys really get yourselves riled up. That ‘T’ word sure gives some of you ‘Y’ guys a big lump in the middle of your throat and an upset gut. That’s OK. Just spew it all out and you will most likely feel better for awhile. What a nutty bunch. You guys talk more about something you don’t like than about the things you do. Seems to be one of your favorite subjects. Could be, there is not an awful lot to say about some of the things you do like. Oh well! Go ahead! Tell me about what you don’t like about what I just said.

I’m listening, Grandpa Doug

Doug and others, here's my opinion. Most of the full-time pros I know are playing Yamaha. Of course there are exceptions, like Uncle who has his hands confused with each other, but most of the full-time pros that I know about play Yamaha.
Scott, Donny P., Eddie, myself, The Pro, and many others. There are 4 or 5 part-timers here in my area, all playing Yamaha. But, in all fairness, they are playing them because I do.
I've owned Technics up through the KN5000. I tried Roland G800, I tried Solton X1, I tried PA80. They all have many wonderful attributes, but I'm back to Yamaha, because it is lightweight, a bargain for the price, and extremely reliable. It has most of the essential tools of my trade built in, including the Vocal Harmonizer. Doing as many as 3 or 4 jobs in a single day, you learn to appreciate the simplicity of the built-ins. It saves valuable time and back pain in the setting up and tearing down. The Operating System is easy to learn and use. I've never had one break on the job (as far as that goes off the job either).
Would I like it to be better--of course. When someone builds a new one that I can see without traveling more than 200 miles, I always go try it.
The only thing I can see on the horizon that MIGHT be better and still satisfy the weight criteria would be the new Korg. And, as we know, it isn't for sale yet. I haven't tried the SD1 or Xd9, because there doesn't seem to be one within that 200-mile range. The X1 sounded good, but the fill and variation buttons were on the wrong side for me to operate comfortably. They moved them at least some on the new models, but I must play before I pay!
Roland, while a worthy kb, lacks the vocal processing and is too heavy.
Technics has a great OS and good sounds and styles, but misrepresented the harmonizer and mic processor. Also, at least until the 7K, the hard drive was a ridiculous proprietary one, costing nearly as much as a spare Yamaha keyboard. The initial cost of the Technics is not that bad, you just have to dig out what the dealer cost is and find one that's willing to make a small profit, rather than a killing. Trust me, it can be done.
Korg PA80 has unexceptable fills and the harmonizer doesn't work the way I want it to.
Cascio hasn't quite got there yet. Farfisa had some great innovations, but seems to have dropped out of the race. Wersi sounds wonderful on paper, but I would be scared to death to rely on a Windows-based OS, even if I could afford to buy one. Again, it's academic because there are none to see. The new GEM shows promise, when they make a model that I can lift.
I've tried hard to find something other that Yamaha, ever since I bought the 2000. It is well documented how it was falsly advertised (AND STILL IS TO THIS MOMENT) as having the OS in flash rom. Also, as I have previously beaten to death, the vocal harmony had a couple of major (to me at least) mistakes, which Yamaha would not acknowledge because they would have had to repair a million or so of them with hardware fixes BECAUSE THE OS WASN'T IN FLASH ROM AS ADVERTISED (oh did I already mention that?)
Anyway, I got tired of waiting, and after testing a 2100 for two weeks at home and on the job, have purchased it to replace the 2000. At least the vocal harmony works correctly, and it has a little more memory. Also, the keybed feels a little different, although I didn't object to the much-maligned key feel on the 2K. I am not a piano player and I like the light, quick response of the keys. I do wish they were full-sized though. Anyway, I still consider it an interim keyboard, to use until somebody makes something better suited for my purposes. It doesn't matter to me whether anybody else wants the features I need, like the vocal harmonizer, but I know the ones that are important to me, and the damned 2100 has most of them and an extremely low price.
It will do for now.
DonM

P.S. Almost forgot--I really wanted to get a Tyros, but can't justify the $$$$, because my audience can't tell the difference anyway.


[This message has been edited by DonM (edited 08-25-2003).]

Don, thanks for the reply. And I must say, an honest and well thought out one at that. As a business man all my life, I suppose it figures that I always had an interest in people. People, because without people I would have no business. Always had a dance band or played in one since I was sixteen. A secondary endeavor that soothed the stress of contracting. That also needs people in order to be successful. I always had success in both ventures but soon realized success is not just success but comes in different flavors. Make a good living or make a very, very good living. Early on I realized there is a difference in people also. In reflection it was in my music interests that I really first noticed it. Playing saloons, tacky night clubs and such the piano usually was an out of tune older upright. Everything else seemed to match. Once in a while we would play some real nice engagements. I think when I was young I would call it real class! There also, everything seemed to match, even the people were different. I think it was Bill the bone player and Rolly the drummer that noticed that also. At one of the practices the subject was brought up and we had quite a discussion. The end of the story is we all got tuxes, we replaced our music stands with professionally painted stands, invested in a bit of lighting among other things such as placing some advertising in some of the key areas. Also had some custom arrangements done for us. Within the next two or three years what a transformation. Not only the type of work but the attitudes of the guys in the band. The ones that were hanging back at first were the most gung-ho to improve things. Applied that mindset to my contracting after a while and never have looked back. I guess Uncle Dave's post about pro’s being hard to deal with, bargain shoppers, broke and such nudged some of these old memories. You hit it right on the head, Don. Most of the players around you play Yamaha because you do. Only confirms my observations, most people are followers and not leaders. Uncle Dave got his hands confused with each other? Now that one you got me on. Hands confused? Don’t have a clue! Fill me in on that one, the old brain might be getting a little thick. As for the rest of your post you have explained your self very well. Seems like the choice of keyboards may be due more to areas of the country and the grouping of people more than anything else. The upper midwest, where I live, seems to be alive with Technics keyboards and players and upper end equipment of all kinds. I have tried and tried to see other makes but without much luck. Some makes none. Others like Yamaha top end stuff only every once in a while. Saw a 9000pro last fall at a dealer in Skokie. They were a Yamaha dealer. Lots of Yamaha dealers but none carry the top line stuff, he was the only one I found. Not even a prs 2000. He had that pro for quite a long time before he sold it. Lots of the cheaper stuff. Said the better stuff did not sell well and that is the reason they all gave me as why they did not stock them. Played that one many times but could never get past the styles and guess I was spoiled with what I had. Finally Guitar Center got a Tyros in two weeks ago. First one they had. Went back three times to give it a fair go. Some things were nice but never lit a spark in me. So Don, thanks for your view and I think you have given me a better understanding of the thought process in people. I believe the thing that troubles me the most is the follower mindset of people as you mentioned. Kind of reminds me of all those little ducks following in a row. Anyway, enjoyed your post and how you reason things out. Got his hands confused with each other? I just gotta know about that one.

Grandpa Doug

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DonM:
[B]I still consider it an interim keyboard, to use until somebody makes something better suited for my purposes. It doesn't matter to me whether anybody else wants the features I need, like the vocal harmonizer, but I know the ones that are important to me, and the damned 2100 has most of them and an extremely low price.
It will do for now.
DonM
my audience can't tell the difference anyway.[QUOTE]
[B]


Back at ya Don....Very well said....
a happy second time around 2k.. pro/player!!

Doug, you summed it up beautifully. Some of these guys have more buttons than my PSR740 and you only have to push one gently. You can see the smoke from here. I got my 740 because it does all I want but I would still buy a KN-7000 tomorrow if I had the cash because it's such a nice keyboard (and I don't need the Vocal Harmony).

Bryan

My little "jibe" at Dave meant only that he uses the keyboard differently from most of us. He often triggers vocal harmony with right hand chords and/or notes, while playing left hand bass. I don't need my keyboard to do that.
On another note, my local music store is going to quit handling arrangers of any kind. They say they spend too much time explaining, demonstrating, etc., and then very often lose the sale to an internet store who doesn't have to do any of that, doesn't have to pay a commission, and doesn't have to charge sales tax.
They can't compete on price with the Best Buys and Sam's Clubs on the low end. They feel it takes less time and effort to sell a $20,000 Yamaha Grand, or Clavinova than a PSR 550.
DonM

"On another note, my local music store is going to quit handling arrangers of any kind. They say they spend too much time explaining, demonstrating, etc., and then very often lose the sale to an internet store who doesn't have to do any of that, doesn't have to pay a commission, and doesn't have to charge sales tax.
They can't compete on price with the Best Buys and Sam's Clubs on the low end. They feel it takes less time and effort to sell a $20,000 Yamaha Grand, or Clavinova than a PSR 550.
DonM"

I could not agree more. I sell a 26,000 boston Piano and I never hear from the people again. I sell a KN7000 at a %20 gp and I have to deal with endless calls and questions and "how do I......" "I dont want to read the Manual so I just called you...."
I do more follow up on KN7000's than any other piano/digial piano. It's kind of frustrating. And then there are the people who buy them online and come into my store expecting me to teach them how to use it....

Hi,
my local store only keeps one type of top of the line arrangers inhouse the Korg series (and some of the really cheap toy like yamahas). In the keyboard line they sell mainly workstations & synths. They can get other brands of arrangers in, but I really don't think they bother stocking them because they don't have the time to spend or the staff to help customers , once they buy them.
Some of the arrangers are quite a learning curve and the manuals at times are fairly daunting. I, for some bizzare reason , loved reading them. As someone else said, customers find it easier to ring up and ask a heap of questions, instead of trying to find the answers in the manual.
Actually years back, I used to be a bit involved with the local store. They used to pay me to do a one on one start up lesson, on the basics their new workstation or keyboard. In an hour or so, we were pretty much able to cover most of the functions that were important to the individual ( including looking up functions in the manual) Any questions they had after that, I was happy to personally take a call. Used to rarely get a call back, as they knew where to find the answers in the manual for themselves. Actually, it wouldn't have worried me if I'd had lots of calls, as I really enjoyed chatting and trying to help people. Used to give me a great sense of satisfaction, knowing I'd helped someone.

best wishes
Rikki

benthepianoboy,

The local dealers in my city are complaining about the same thing. But I have one question for all of them:

How come George Kay is selling lot of keyboards? What value does he add to the sale that make everyone wish they live by his store?

Just a question.

Hi Grandpa Doug,
I can figure exactly why people would buy that 'overpriced' Kn7000 and that is because it is an excellent keyboard. My point was never to dispute that fact. Like I said I bought Technics and nothing but Technics for years. I even auditioned the 7000 before plumping for the pro. Visually it looks the dog's whatsits and in my humble opinion the sound / speaker system is unparralelled on any keyboard out today.
I even think that no keyboard has been able to match the soundsystem on technics since the kn5000 and with each subsequent model have raised the standard even further.

My point though is that Technics, especially in this day and age, cannot rely on customer / brand loyalty alone. I work very hard for my cash and have a perfect right to be demanding when I am spending it. If I think I am being placated or not getting the best value or that you are playing on my loyalty you are not getting my hard earned.

You say Technics could not care less about harmonisers or blinking lights.....well they do or they would not include the harmoniser in the first place. It really is awful and of sub standard quality. Still they put in on to compete with other brands. Like I said before I would have had more respect if they had said "Sorry guys we make keyboards not harmonisers". But they don't and they won't because they need to compete. If they are happy to leave it on they should be happy to accept the criticism.

I don't get riled up at the 'T' word. Well maybe I do a bit at the 'H' word I don't know why it bothers me so much other than the attitude that Technics seemed to have over the harmoniser that people would put up with it because they are so strong in other areas. As a business man yourself surely you must agree that today manufacturers need to cover all bases and be seen to go the extra mile to keep their clients?

I am not sure that to buy anything other than a Technics infers that you follow the pack rather than innovate or lead but you are as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine.

I will say that I love a hundred things about my 9000pro and am glad I made the change BUT I bet there are a hundred and one things I don't like about it as well and EVEN find myself often saying....why can't they do it like Technics!

Until Technics buy out Yamaha or Vice versa and make the Yamatech 99000 we will always feel that we need to defend our board of choice and to the hilt Personally if Korg, Technics, Yammie, or even Casio bring out an amazing board next year I will be first in line to try it and would have no qualms about changing whatever logo is emblazened on the back. (Hope the harmoniser is decent though ;D )

All the very best
Tony W

Fill me in on George Kay... I'm not familiar with him.

"How come George Kay is selling lot of keyboards?

Perception me boy, perception!

Grandpa Doug

[This message has been edited by Douglas Dean (edited 08-28-2003).]

Hello Ben ,

George Kaye has a music store in the Los Angeles area . He has been participating on the forum for years.
Dano


------------------
keyboardcity@yahoo.com
www.keyboardcity.net
1-866-348-8876

Quote by Tony W: “I don't know why it bothers me so much other than the attitude that Technics seemed to have over the harmonizer that people would put up with it because they are so strong in other areas. As a business man yourself surely you must agree that today manufacturers need to cover all bases and be seen to go the extra mile to keep their clients”?

Tony, yes, it would seem on the surface as a business man (that's me), surely must agree that today manufacturers need to cover all bases and be seen to go the extra mile to keep their clients? Well let’s see! From Sears department store I buy most of the tools we use in our two shops. Very good tools. We have six kids. All the years raising those kids, to this very day we do not buy any clothes from Sears because they stink. The quality is not very good. We buy them from another department store, Carson or Fields, where we found we could pass them down from one kid to another. In other words the quality was such that they lasted longer. Both department stores, but neither covers all bases even to this day. I buy my fertilizer from one landscape supply company, my grass seed from another. Why? They don’t cover all bases but they are landscape supply companies. I buy all the grafted plants, all the seedling plants and all the different varieties that I line out in my nursery from different propagating nurseries and greenhouses. They are all successful and have kept their clients for many years without trying to be all things to all people. There have been some who have tried but are no longer with us. As a business man owning my own company for 58 years I do not cover all bases in my business. Neither do my sons who have all but taken over and are running it. I hang around in the office looking important doing some of the computer drawing when I feel like it and taking credit when ever I can get away with it. There are things we have done very well over the years and some things we are not really interested in but do provide. If our clients insist on quality above our ability to provide excellence, we recommend others that can provide the specialty we are not very apt or interested in. We go the extra mile to keep our clients that come to us for our expertise but we don’t feel a need to cover all bases. However we sure do keep our clients. Tony I do hope this makes some sense to you. There is a segment of the population that are brand loyal even to this very day. No matter how shoddy the product or how crappie the service, they are loyal. I really feel sorry for them, they are missing so much. We have been given one life and a set number of years on this earth, how sad.

Tony, you are right, If they are happy to leave it on (harmonizer) they should be happy to accept the criticism. Please, please Tony and the rest of the unhappy campers out there: call them, write them, visit them, send them e-mail or anything else you can think of and criticize them, read them the riot act, tell them how stupid they are, tell them how much money they are loosing because you wont buy one because you have a bug up your rear end. I’m sure they will cry all the way to the bank. You guys, I don’t make them, I don’t design them, I don’t sell them, I just play them, enjoy them, make a few bucks with them and the people like to fill my little jar to say thanks for the lovely sounding music and a lovely evening.

If you don’t get riled up at the (T) word, then what gets you all so riled up? Man, on the other forum nobody picks apart the other keyboards. The only remarks made about the other boards was that some of the guys bought the 9000’s and the Tyros and made a mistake and never play them anymore. They don’t produce Rheims of print finding fault.

Tony, you say quote: “I am not sure that to buy anything other than a Technics infers that you follow the pack rather than innovate or lead but you are as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine”. My opinion is, that is not what I said. This is what I said, Quote: You hit it right on the head, Don. Most of the players around you play Yamaha because you do. Only confirms my observations, most people are followers and not leaders. Here is the quote from Don: “But, in all fairness, they are playing them because I do”. I know you have some kind of a sore spot with Technics but please don’t put words in my mouth. Don was saying there are some guys around him that play Yamaha’s because he does. I remarked that confirmed some of my thoughts on the subject. I could care less what people desire to play. What I do have an interest in is why people do what they do, why they have the attitudes they do and what makes them tick. Because I have to deal with people everyday in the process of selling them my wares it helps me to understand how they think, and why. So to sum my observations to this point, I think the only thing that happened is that I am getting a headache.

Grandpa Doug

Hi Grandpa Doug,
First off apologies if you thought I was putting words in your mouth, believe me I would not dare My mistake. I assumed you were saying something you were not and it is not the first time assumption has got me into hot water!

Believe it or not I did once write to technics (how sad is that) over the harmoniser issue! Not that I got much of a response..... In the grand scheme of things my little £1800 purchase did not register that much and although I did not like the fact I am realistic enough to understand it. I did the only thing I could do as a consumer and that was to change brands next time I was in the market for a board.

Don't get me wrong....I would not cut my nose off to spite my face! Even I am not that daft. Had Yammie or anyone else not had a board that compared favourably to Technics I would have sat on my pride and carried on 'kn' ing

The simple fact is that there are choices out there and I suppose it is a good thing too.

If I have a Technics 'bug up my rear end' then I bet I have two Yamaha ones up there as well keeping it company! I freely admit I am hard to please but I really don't want that to come across as my being so myopic as to blame only one company for all the ills in the keyboarding world!

It is true that the other forum (fori, fora, what is the plural of forum?) do not pick apart other boards but I think they tend to be more brand specific whilst here in the general forum we tend to take every opportunity to justify (not least to ourselves) why we spent so much money on a particular brand / model. It is back to choices I think.....with so much quality stuff out there we like to reassure ourselves that we 'got it right'. Often this materialises in the form of denegrating the competition when in reality we were only a gnats 'eyelash' from buying it in the first place

Of course we could and probably would disagree for the next forty posts over the harmoniser on technics models. It does not really matter though. What is important to me does not have to be important to anyone else. It is only my opinion and I made my choices because of it. The fact that I now have a board with a half decent harmoniser on it and yet never use it (the harmoniser not the board ) only serves to make me wonder why I got so het up about it in the first place......funny things principles!

I am sure the thing we can agree on is that whatever we play, buy, moan about, or adulate we all love to make music and that is what keeps us all here and keeps us all so passionate. Maybe we should all concentrate on that because at the end of the day the Technics v Yamaha contest is as silly as Gershwin v Porter.

Hope your headache improves and that I have not made it worse!
Very best to you
Tony W

I think "fora" is a good bet

grandpa doug,i agree with a lot of what you say,BUT following sheep,on this great site there are pro,s who have valuable input regardless of the keyboards offered,its ok to say to people to go into the shops and try out for yourself all the keyboards and pick what you like best (i,m not saying that you said this) iv,e had my psr2000 for just over a year now and i still don,t understand everything about it,when you try other keyboards with different layouts to fathom,its not easy for most of us ,thats why we rely on the pro,s on this site even though it is sometimes bias,i for one would rather trust my friends here than a salesman who MAY OR MAY NOT KNOW A LOT ABOUT THEIR PRODUCT is only interested in my money,i don,t include george kaye or don or others dealers on this site,because there is a lot of sincerity in what they say,for this reason i suggested some time ago that maybe we could have a breakdown of all the keyboards on each part of say 1 to10 on sounds, operating ,styles etc,etc etc,as said before there is no perfect keyboard but the better we can get for our money the more happier we are,mike

"Rheims" of print - nice. Keyboards are a personal choice. In a particular class of keyboards you can't really say one is "better" than another. One person's sound is another person's noise. Certain features may be "better" but overall keyboards are as Doug points out - none of them are "better" in every respect. I've long been a Yamaha person and XG user but I wouldn't hesitate to buy a KN-7000 if I had the money because I like it whatever its benefits or faults. It's all down to personal opinion in the end and we'll never have a definitive answer to that one otherwise we wouldn't be here, arguing the toss.

Bryan

Tony, a very gracious response.

Grandpa Doug

(Quote Pilot) "I've long been a Yamaha person and XG user but I wouldn't hesitate to buy a KN-7000 if I had the money because I like it whatever its benefits or faults. It's all down to personal opinion in the end and we'll never have a definitive answer to that one otherwise we wouldn't be here, arguing the toss."

Besides that if everyone liked & bought Technics, I wouldn't have been able to buy my
Yamaha 9000 Pro, : Because Yamaha would not be in the KB business.
And that would be bad for me.
Still Enjoying the 9000 PRO
Denny