this is one cool keyboard! after my 2nd trip to sam ash eliminated the pa80 from further consideration,I wandered over to the pro synth room and had a blast with this new roland keyboard. What cool sounds! These drums rock! also-compare the build quality for what you get in an arranger,from any company,in the $1800 range. We are getting ripped on arrangers!
Hey George-do you have the Fantom?
Is the va series anyting like this sound quality? My only exposure to a va7 is a piano salesman playing polkas-I never got to touch it! and then when He said "its only $5000"----I was laughing when I hit the front door!
Bill E

Hey Bill! LOL! About you running for the front door!

I would like to know a little more about this Roland Fantom (actually, there are a few demos' - and video's here: Roland
Fantom Video/Audio Demo's .
And your right about these drums Bill, they are very cool . The great thing about it, is 76 keys, Slots for JV(1)/XV(2) cards (three slots available)Professional XV-5080 sound engine with 64 voices and 16 multitimbral parts, Arpeggiator and Rhythm generator. And lots more of course.

You say not an arranger but....

Well, let me tell you that the Fantom is a workstation, with a Sequencer, and in this way you build up songs using these functions. You add drums, add tracks, and then you get your sound. What have you done? - you have Arranged a performance, except with the Fantom, you will have had to work a little more, since there are no ready-made "Backing styles". I think a keyboard like this be very creative, and should be discussed (IN MY OPINION) along side arranger keyboards like Kn6500, Yamaha 9000 etc. If the end justifies the means, and that being: "Getting that sound" then why not class it as an arranger? - Because although different from a keyboard with automatic accompaniment, you can get that Rhythm & swing, or Dance ...or whatever, if you are prepared to work at it.

One of the reasons I didn't go for a Roland VA7, is that you virtually have to do nothing once you have set your sounds up. And as FUTURE MUSIC put it VA7 Review Let's be clear on this point, you won't need virtuoso fingers to sound good on the VA-7. In fact, you'll barely need fingers at all. In an emergency you could probably just about scrape by using just your nose.!.

That was kind of funny to read...but you have to ask yourself a serious question....DO "ARRANGER" people rely TOO much on the....well "Arranger" feature shall we say?? (or Auto this, Auto that etc)? I used to play the Piano a lot, and feel (sometimes), that I am going "backwards" on my musical Prowess, so to speak. I play the KN6500 a lot, but most of the backings are "Home made". In essance, I could probably manage without the Auto play funcions anyway....and just use the Composer to help me with the Backing styles. You can have too much done for you (you know), and I don't Akin to that...

I'm all for getting the right sound, but will be prepared to work for it if I have to...and having everything done for you in the Accompaniment is not my cup of tea to be honest. I have a KN6500, but I can tell you that I compose most of the Rhythms myself, even though there are 220 onboard ones (with Variations)

These New Workstations like the Fantom are really worth a look Bill

Oh, and here's the best bit...they are Only £1,386 from A&C Hamilton (they will go lower if you push em'! compared to £1799 for a 61 note VA7 You get a lot of keyboard for your buck bill!

J5



[This message has been edited by Jupiter5 (edited 11-08-2001).]

Hey guys,
Here comes Mr. Nay sayer....not really but, I just came off 2 workstations, the Karma and the Motif. I started with a 9000 went to those, now I'm back at an arranger the PA 80.
While the workstations are very cool and versatile, it is a vast understatement to say you need to "just" work at it. If you want to see workstation wo's visit www.motifator.com. and look at some of the issues there and frustration.
I looked at the Fantom before buying the PA. The Fantom had some nice features, I especially like the arppegiators and how tweekable they are I also like that Roland makes a ton of different boards with sounds for their equipment. That all being said, I've come full circle and I think my music went down the toilet for the year I played with the workstations. Some people make great music on them, some of the best, but man they are a huge hassle to work with if you're doing anything more complicated then picking a voice to play.
there's my 2 cents worth,
Terry

Jocko, by all means, press the auto play feature and solo over the top. And if you make great music that way, and delight your audience, then you have achieved your objective.

But for me, this just isn't the way to play, or create professional arrangements. More is needed. If one is going to play an arranger keyboard to produce versatile sounds, I would at least use the "Pianist" mode that is available on top arrangers, and actually play the thing!(using advanced chords as well) - with two hands. If one can't play the keyboard anyway...then the "auto backing" maybe the only way out for those lacking the ability to string a few chords together with BOTH hands.

Jock, I've been down this workstation road, and started off with the Korg M1. It wasn't easy to work with at first, but I soon got into it. Now, however, workstations are different animals, with the ability to trigger arpeggios, Loops & grooves at the touch of a button - or key (Did I say Auto??). You say you once had Karma. Well, there are people on the Triton forum who eschew this keyboard...because they say it is like an arranger!! (Chord recognition etc), and "Does it all for you" etc etc.

It all depends on your style of music, and what you want to play that determines whether you are a "Workstation" or an "Arranger" man. If you like Dance/Techno/...don't buy a PSR/Casio, they won't be up to the job (at least, not in the professional sense of the word - even if there are "Dance" preset Rhythms etc). A Triton/Karma/Motif etc will be more suitable for these applications.

On the other hand, if you like "easy listening" type of music, then the last thing you need is to spend hours, weeks, even Months, doing “button” pressing for most of your time. There are many ways to get you music to sound good, but I still have to say that: "Arranger keyboards are the "easier" way out". I like to work a bit for mine – just to get that “extra” professionalism into my music.

-------------------

J5

Jupiter,
A few things:
1. I don't know where you're coming from other than musical snobbery.
2. I'm working on my 42nd cd and have been doing it for 30+ years, so I think I have a fairly good idea of what making music is about.
3. You make just as complex things as you want to on an arranger as you can on a workstation.
4. It's pretty hypocritical of you to downgrade auto accmp.,when you press the arp button on a workstation, you're doing exactly the same thing. Or slicing and dicing on a sequencer.
5. A great tune is a great tune no matter how you get there.
6. I think you'd be unpleasantly surprised to see what tricks the "pros" as you have obviously put yourself in that class use in the studio. Ie., loops, computer generated music, vocal harmonizers etc.
7. You can have the most complex piece of equipment, be a great player as you deem yourself and still turn out absolute junk, not worth the space taken up on a hard disc.
8. If you use the bass or strings or any other patch off a workstation....than you're taken the easy and lazy way out as well....learn to play the violin and bass and whatever other patch you use. Otherwise you're only B.S.'n yourself that you're doing it the "pro" way to make music.
Great technical ability and bustin' your nuts to record/play does not take the place of musical creativity. It just means you're working harder not smarter to acheive the same goal.
As far as you're snobby comments about the genre of easy listening music....you're entitled to your opinion, even if it is wrong.
About the only thing I agree with you on is if you want to make techno and hip hop and that simplistic music, you're right, the new workstations are for you, that's what they do best.
Terry

Don't forget Jock, I play an arranger myself, but not in the usual "Arranger" sort of way, that includes pressing one "touch play" and all is "done for you".

I am kind of in the "middle" here. I like both "Workstations" & "Arrangers", and the better bread & butter sounds are on arranger keyboards I would say (Piano/Brass/Soloist sounds and so forth). However, when I need to add that "professional" touch, then I nearly always have to use my arranger (KN6500) in a different way (almost like what it wasn't designed for). This is were Pro workstations fit in for me, and hope to purchase one very soon to go along with my arranger.

I'm not as old as you, but my father and great grandfather (and also his father) have a great history of making music, that spans over many years (19th century). Music is in the Family I would say in this houshold, and my father, even though he is nearly 70 years of age now, plays rachmaninov very well, and also lots of Chopin. I use my arranger for fun...then get on the Piano for some serious music.

I used to be a Guitar teacher as well, and have played works by Bach (transcribed by Segovia), Fernando Sor, And Villa Lobos (S/American Composer). I see you have quite a collection of guitars yourself, and also a violin I believe. Isn't that a Karma there along side you Terry?.

Cheers

J5, England, UK



[This message has been edited by Jupiter5 (edited 11-08-2001).]

Bill,
Yes I carry the Fantom and yes I agree it is a very good pro workstation. But, now that the VA7 is just a couple of hundred dollars more, here is what you get. Yes, an arranger, but with those good drum sounds as the Fantom and those really good strings, piano, brass, etc. sounds. You can record in 16 track mode just like on the Fantom except you might not have quite as many editable peramaters to adjust (although I'm not quite sure about that). 61 keys, same feel as the 76 fantom. A zip drive and a sampler on the VA7. Only a disk drive on Fantom. The VA7 gives you 128 note poly where the fantom has only 64, so you have more tracks to record on the VA7 without notes disapearing. The difference is that the fantom has more synth type sounds and pads and a lot more extensive sound and effect editing. But it depends on what you need. Perhaps in England the price is so different for the VA7, but now that I've been able to get the VA7 down to a much lower price, the VA has a lot to offer! They are both very good choices depending on what you like and need in a keyboard.
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California

As far as original music, I think the arranger keyboards are preferable for creating demos and the workstations are preferable for the final product.

I am crazy about my PSR 740, and looking forward to getting a PSR 2000 any day now. If I have an incredible song idea in my head, an arranger keyboard used with a computer sequencer will give me the quickest approximation of my inspiration. But if I had a record contract, I would want to start closer to scratch and would want a workstation.
For expressing a song idea, there are so many great styles out there that can do a song justice, especially with editing with an external sequencer. And if you want better voices, you can use your arranger with a soft synth like Gigastudio.
But I could see a modern Beethoven grooving on a workstation more than on an arranger.
This is just my impression.

Larry

J5, Well I had an irate defense of Arranger Keyboards all typed out, but decided not to go there. There is a place for Workstations, and a place for Arrangers. Great music can be achieved by both. At first I thought I would say that this is the forum for Arrangers and it isn't cool to put us Arranger Users down in our own house just because we might use them differently than you do. But I realized you didn't mean any harm, so I don't have to mention it.
We are always open to different viewpoints and new ideas, but I certainly hope that not using the Pianist Mode doesn't keep me from being a professional. I don't think I would like getting a "real" job after 30 years of making music full time.
I feel I can be much more creative when entertaining in a live situation by playing along with my Arranger Keyboard "band" than with a pre-recorded sequence, which, and I may be mistaken here, would be necessary when using a Workstation. This allows me to extend the song, add a chorus to keep people dancing, create medleys on the fly, hold a chord while I joke with the audience--whatever. I very seldom use the Pianist Mode, even though I'm quite capable of stringing chords together with both hands, because, first of all, I'm not a pianist, I'm a keyboard player. I use the chord hold function to free up my left hand to use the pitch-bend and modulation wheels to add realism to the voices I'm playing. I often play several notes at once with my right hand, as a guitar player or organist might do. In the Pianist Mode, this too easily calls up the wrong chord. Not using the Pianist Mode doesn't make me less professional. Only making less money would do that. Before I learned to entertain, I also taught guitar, trumpet and I could play all the classics on trumpet. Now THAT was lucrative!!
Anyway, I'm sure glad I decided not to speak out on this, because I need to be getting some rest before tomorrows gigs.
DonM

I have really enjoyed this small debate here. As a 50 year old with a life history from age 5 involved in piano, guitar, brass, and now exclusely as a jazz pianist in a duo - where I do some composing - I have a combined workstation/arranger interest. Having owned several synths - Rolands, Yamahas, Triton, Karma,M1 - ad nauseum - I do know that great sounds and sequences can come from them. I feel they are primarily designed for ensemble or studio work. The arranger seems truly targeted (so far) at the needs of the one-man-band. The sounds are normally combined sounds and don't tend to be as powerful or sophisticated as stand alone synths for that reason (I think). There is an argument that workstations provide primarily a sequenced song/song style - which if you play against it with another instrument is like playing along with a tape/cd. Arrangers? - completely opposite. Unfortunately - from my experience - both of those methods can sound a bit canned for my taste -

What I hope to do when I find the best arranger for me is to do both - and use each method somewhat minimally compared to my actual realtime piano playing - that is - to have some real time accompaniment - and to occasionally press a button(s) to trigger a recorded sequence(s)such as one might do on a work station - I believe using both of those methods in conjunction with basic piano playing has the potential to really catch the attention of very talented musicians who have felt that arrangers belong in the toy category. I am guilty of having had the same thoughts - and no doubt some of it is related to music snobbery - things change. One thing I know for sure. Musicians are really attracted to the latest, greatest thing. It takes a great deal of maturity to quit buying and accept your own limits as well as figuring out how to best use the time you have available for creating and playing.

regards
Mike