Well i remember the days when the X1 came about (in the old forum) and so many praises were sung branding it far advanced in both sounds, styles and features over anything at the time. I think the competition then was the KN5000, PSR8000, WK8, G1000/EM2000, I30. I think we are talking about a little over a 18 months ago now. Since then, we have had replacements from nearly all the above keyboards and its as if the X1 has aged considerably (by reading all the recent posts that is). So are we saying that Yamaha, Korg, Roland & Technics took a back seat when seeing the X1 and thought they had to come up with something special to match it, OR are we saying that the next new keyboard that comes along is automatically better? Im confused really. I am not in a luxury position of trying out all these new keyboards so i have to trust you guys on it. But i have to sit and take notice when it swings from one extreme to the other. I will always be happy with the X1, however, I was brought up on a Yamaha but even up until the PSR8000 (my last Yamaha keyboard) i never thought it could really compete with the other top keyboards and to my ears this rang true and that is why I sold it. Now, the PSR9000pro appears to be the daddy. Have Yamaha really improved THAT much?? Yamaha have always been mass market, and ive certainly noticed a major change with them, first of all cutting down on their riddiculous range of kiddies keyboards, theres not so many now in the bottom and mid range. Credit to them, they are definately showing they mean buisness. They have been reading this forum and taking our advice!!!

Basically what I am saying is, its time to go back to my first love IF deemed worthy, and I think you guys are definately making me think twice about it. Now, all i need to do is find a PSR9000pro and listen to it!!!

Danny..

DannyUK: I think ALL the keyboards you mentioned (including your X1) are still EXCELLENT keyboards cabable of making PROFESSIONAL sounding music. The NEXT new model keyboard is NOT going to make you automatically better. This is only a marketing ploy used by the manufacters to keep you buying. Time spent practicing, and possbily taking some keyboard lessons are probably a MUCH BETTER investment than thinking the NEXT keyboard will be better. REMEMBER, the musical expression & creativity comes from US, not the keyboard.

That being said, I personally prefer the acoustic piano sounds and ease of use of the Yamaha 9000pro & Technics KN boards over the X1, but these are 'very personal' preferences. The key is to enjoy MAKING MUSIC on whichever keyboard you currently own. Switch ONLY if you no longer enjoy making music on your current board. - Scott

Hi scott!! Nice to hear from you... I understand what your saying. The point in which I was getting at was really to understand if the manufacterers of the so called keyboards (since the X1) have really taken note and thought they had to improve what they had already sold because there is no doubt that the X1 at the time was far superior. About owning any of the keyboards i mentioned, I would be happy with any of them and for the music I play most of the suit me fine. I am really happy with my X1, although like with every keyboard there is something you dont like about it. The X1 has a few faults in which I really dislike, but this does not outweigh the good points.

Also, I certainly dont want to change keyboards to improve my playing! Thats not the idea at all. I was just curious to know that how much in a space of 2 years has the quality of these instruments have changed, and it seems to be its pretty considerable.

I have always been keeping an eye out for any future Yamaha keyboard in the hope that I would return back to Yamaha, but only of they were worthy enough. It seems to me that my temporary switch has sort of backfired on me! But this is just personal preferences, give my any of the top models and I am perfectly happy.!!

Danny.

Danny,Your X1 is as good or possibly better than the PSR9000..Fran[the Roland fan]

I think that right now, even with the poor acoustic piano already mentioned by Scott and others, the X1 is still a much better buy than the SD1.
Just my 2 Euros.

Andrea

Dreamer,
I don't agree with you this time. Last wednesday a friend of mine visited me and brought his X1 and KN3000 with him.
(This poor guy needed assistance in setting up MIDI)

So I re-touched the X1 and KN3k ...... NO WAY BACK : The SD1 beats them easy !!

Roel

Danny,
The X1 is still a great keyboard even compared to the PA80 , Kn series and PSR9000 and 9000pro .
Here are questions for non- ketron owners .
Can you record directly to the harddrive of your keyboard ? If it has a hard drive .
How easy is it to play songs back to back ?
How much different are the styles from the last keyboard you owned ?
I think Korg and Yamaha are playing catch up .
With the PSr9000 or 9000pro I beleive that you can not play songs off the hard drive or play songs back to back . Ketron has had this fiquired out since the MS100 .
How long did it take to get the 9000pro to market ?
How long did it take to bring the PA80 to market . Is there a PA80 elite ? No one knows for sure how long it will take to see this latest Korg release .
Sound for sound ....style for style the X1 just sounds better than Yamaha and Korg . The problem with the X1 is the appearence . It would be great it it was Silver ! Dan o

Dan - you wrote:

With the PSr9000 or 9000pro I beleive that you can not play songs off the hard drive or play songs back to back

That's not so! The playback is a snap off the hard drive. Direct recording is also a ONE step event. Back to back song playback is very easy and glitchless. The overall O/S of the Yamaha has it ALL over the Ketron design. You can't even call up isolated drum patterns on an X1 without sending volume and program changes to the bass and other sounds.
I tried for months to overcome the shortcomings of the X1 as a "live" (arrangerless) keyboard, and couldn't do it. I think, at the very LEAST - all arrangers should function as a simple piano/bass/drum synth first. That's where this all started. The auto stuff is icing on the cake, and ego boosters for beginning and amature players.
The 9k has the most versitility of all of them - too bad the harminzer and I can't play nice together!
I'm sure your beloved SD1 is terrific, but after owning ALL of them, I'd never go back to the Ketron O/S.
I could live with the Kn stuff, but I'm spoiled by Yamaha at the monent.

Hi Danny,
I used to own a Psr 8000, now I have a 9k Pro. I think that Yamaha did a great job in improving sounds and styles, however, I remember trying out the X1 way back when, and was very impressed by the realizm of their guitar strums. I used to be a guitar player so I pay more attention to that.
As I said The Pro is much better than the 8000, but I think the guitar strums in the X1 are still better.
Eric

My two cents:
The X1 still has the best direct song play and chain play. Yamaha can play songs from the hard drive, but you can only search for the next one while one is playing, you can't play a chain of songs (but the next operating system might change this!). The X1 has the weakest grand piano compared to both the Yamaha and the Korg PA80 (to my ears and most of my customers). The Korg can search and load a second song while the first is playing, but it's search system is not as quick as the X1. Korg PA80 has the most big band, Fox Trot and Swing songs of the bunch.
These are just a few thoughts on the subject. I could go on for hours, but in reading these few posts I just thought i'd put a couple of thoughts down.
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene

Ah, here's another cent and a half's worth. If you go to the X1 home page. You notice that the ad says, this board will never be obsolete. I am still tweaking the 6500 to try and get the sax as good as the X1. No contest, so far, but I like the styles on the 6500 better. I finally got back to my Yammies, 740, 730 and still like the way they work together. That's why I am really looking forward to the 2000. Maybe I should just break down and get the 9000. I did have a bid for the one on ebay. It went for $2450.00. Cheap for a 9000pro w/HD.

Here we go again!

Uncle Dave,

There are a few of us who were trained as organists and not piano players. I've played professionally for 30 years. I DO NOT do fingered bass! I can hold my own with most real bass players using my feet. For me fingered bass is not an option. I will not commit to the learning curve that would be required for me to do fingered bass. This does not make me a poor or amateur player.

An arranger keyboard is supposed to sound like a whole band. That's why we call them arrangers. It allows me to adapt to the times. Not everyone or place can hire a 16 piece band. It is hard enough to get a job for a trio. We have become one man bands. Yes the auto stuff for you is icing on the cake but for many of us old Hammond players it is the cake itself. My audiances do not want to buy cake without icing.

I've had the psr740 and now the X1. The 740 is easier to operate but the X1 was not a problem either. Because I use the styles in my performances I'll trade a slightly more complicated operating system for better styles anyday (read my post on the Yammie BB & swing styles). When I need manual bass I play the Roland Pk5 pedals hooked into my X1.

Tom

P.S. I can't speak for everyone that you just insulted but I still love ya.

Tom,

My idea to a T. !!!!
So back off Uncle Dave......>!!!

greetings to the both of you,

john.

Just yesterday I went to a wedding of a friend. They had two guys, both singing and one of them playing X1.

During the ceremony the keyboardist was playing "background" instrumental music. I am convinced that my G1000 would do a better job, especially with me playing it.

However, during the party they had put on quite a show. All the lead melodies were sung, and the X1 was only providing the accompaniments and instrumental fills, mostly thick brass sections, saxes, accordeons, and a few others (no pianos here). These guys sounded marvellous, and although I am sure it was mainly due to their great vocal abilities and artistic skill, the sounds of the X1 rhythms had instrument solos had played a large part in their act.

Regards

Tom, Tom, Tom.......
You are so easily rattled. I never once stated that my upbringing was the right way. In fact, I'm more of a bass player than a piano player, but I learned to play the lines with my left hand out of neccesity years ago. My point is simple -
ALL arranger players will sound the SAME if they all use the same arrangements! Youneed to "spice up" the stock arrangement with lots of your own heart. I think if I am in an intimate setting - I prefer the trio sound to the best arranger style. If the dance floor is more of a priority, then a sequence or an arrangement is more appropriate. In your old days on organ, I'm sure you had no trouble making a "psuedo arrangement" with just two hands and one foot. I just took that step to the next level with auto keyboards, because of the built-in drums. I still believe that MOST of the sound is in the bass, drums & vocals. Those will always be the priorities for my shows.
As for the Yamaha BB styles -
I can pack a dance floor with just the stock styles even WITHOUT the arranger - the drums are right on the money - it's up to you to add the rest of the ingredients to make the arrangement complete. Play the right style with the RIGHT hand and the bass & drums will carry the song.

There we go again, about one out of every 3 posts on this forum is about "my keyboard is better then yours".
All a bunch of B.S. Ofcourse we like to hear new features, tips and tricks, advice from the pro's.
Every line of keyboards has its own strong points, it just depends on who you are, what you like, what you play and how much money you are willing to spend which board is teh most suitable for you.
Specially styles and sounds, taste is a personal thing. Also, the longer you play a certain board the more you get used to its sounds. Next time you go looking for a board you are more then likely to goo for the same kind of sound.
There is no "best" keyboard!.
Personaly, I play a G1000, not on stage, just at home in my livingroom. I listen to the PSR9000 and wouldn't trade my G1000 in a million years. But again, that is just my humble opinion

Unfortunately, I never tested the X1 and therefore I cannot comment on it and contrast it to other keyboards. There is no dealer in my area that carries it. However, I have tested PSR9kPRO and other keyboards. My brother owns PSR740 and I play that all the time. I have few comments:

1) the grand piano of the PSR9Kpro sounds like yamaha grand piano patch coming from arranger keyboards. Why yamaha cannot place the P80 piano patch in the PSR9Kpro or even the motif is beyond me. The grand piano on the motif sounds very lacking. All other instruments sound excellent except for that grandpiano sound. clearly, yamaha wants to create two separate markets. One for those who desire an excellent grand piano and those who do not mind a considerable compromise.

2) Given the above point, if X1 has a bad piano, welcome to the family of arranger keyboards where the manufacturer chooses intentionally not to place a good piano in them anyway. (GEM, place read this and learn, your next coming keyboard better have a good piano).

3)I listened to few demo styles of X1 and they sound very nice and very realistic. I liked the sound of the guitar in the X1 but I also liked it on the PSR-series (9kpro, 740)... In fact, Yamaha is the best in the sounds of the strings, voilins and the acoustic nylon guitar. In fact, even older yamaha keyboards always boasted with good strings, nylon guitar and voilins.

4) x1 styles remind me of GEM styles when it comes to realism but they also remind me of yamaha because of the nice acoustic nylon guitar. On the other hand, Yamaha styles are well written and arranged especially for ballads. They are good for performance but not that good for professional recording INHO because the listener can tell very easily that an arranger keyboard was involved while with the X1 and GEM, they sounded like separate solo instruments playing together and this is what I meant by "realism."

5) Now I was told that small things matter and the details are very important. This is very true. things like the number of connectors, the features of the sequencer, the programability of the keyboard, the sampling, the vocolizer and many others are very important. GEM has 10 sliders. How about other keyboards?

That brings me to the conclusion, oh yes, keyboards have changed a lot but they were not updated enough to replace the previous keyboards. Examples:

1) Psr9kPRO might have better sounds in general, but why not have a nice grand piano sound?

2) all of the new keyboards are fine. but what about the 10 sliders?

3) the new styles are interesting, new and well-arranged. But what about realism?

4) what about including oriental kit? and by the way, oriental kit is now important for those who write for movies, just look at the newer movies, they all utilize 1/4 tone arrangements for effects.

Just my 2 cents.

[This message has been edited by sk880user (edited 08-21-2001).]

A Silver Ketron/Solton X1? NO! NO! NEVER!! I'll take My X1 Just as it is. (That is if I can keep it out of the repair shop long enough to realize that I actually have an X1.
DVJ





[This message has been edited by deatonent (edited 08-21-2001).]

Hi Deaton: Exactly what type of problems have you been experiencing which has necessitated your X1 spending so much time in the repair shop? I was informed (from Bell Solton NY) that if I purchased an SD1 and warranty repair service was needed, that I would have to ship the keyboard 5000 miles (8,046 km) across the Country to New York, because local repair facilities in my area (San Francisco Bay Area) will not work on Solton keyboards. Your statement here certainly is a REAL concern to me.

Scott,
I thought you and I were only 3000 miles apart? (serious)
Is the country really THAT wide? All this time I thought it was 3k.

There were a lot of things I liked about the X1. The things I didn't like have already been discussed many times. However, one of the important reasons I allowed Tom C. to take it off my hands was the fact that I didn't really trust it to hold up night after night. There were a couple of minor problems that I couldn't get addressed without shipping it to N.Y. I didn't have a backup at the time because I never thought I needed one with Yamaha or Technics. I just didn't trust the Solton, knowing I couldn't get it repaired locally.
Probably never would have had a major problem, but . . . .
DonM

oops.... UD, you're RIGHT! It's 3,055 miles (4,915 km) between SF and NY. I used the following chart and mistakenly read the km (blue) reading for miles.
http://usa.dedas.com/distance/usa.html

Even so, it's STILL, quite a distance to ship a keyboard for repair.

Scott,
it doesent really matter how long it is as
long as you have a keyboard as the GOODIES
that we have
GJ

Danny,
I just got a brand new X1 few weeks ago, and I used it for the first time in a big celebration in our church yesterday. Only one thing I can tell you: I have never seen the audience (more than 3,000 people) enjoying the choir and the music that much before. I received lots of commendation words after the performance from many people. I have seen other bands playing Roland, Technics, Yamaha, Korg in our church before, but nothing was like yesterday. It’s even the same ME who played for the same people for years and never had this amount of praise in one show.
I would say: The X1 is the one, the X1 is built to last…

Maged

Scott,
First, I must tell you that before I bought my X1 I went to a local Yamaha dealer who has a (Yamaha) factory authorized service department and talked them into becoming a Solton dealer, which they did. In doing so they were authorized to do repairs if directed to do so by Bell Solton or ship the instrument back to New York if so ordered. So far all of my repair problems were handled locally.
I bought my X1 almost a year ago. When it came from the factory, part of the keys were inactive (no sound)- BACK TO DEALER (cable loose inside keyboard). Then, the microphone input was intermittent. It worked, then did not work - BACK TO DEALER (a transistor on the vocalizer circuit board had been twisted so that two of its leads touched causing the microphone to enable-disable with temperature changes inside the keyboard). Then, the microphone worked but sometimes would emit a "digital distortion" type clipping and when the recommended adapter was used allowing two mics to be plugged in no signal at all came through at all -BACK TO DEALER (not sure what the problem was but the repair man said the had to resolder some connections). A month or so ago I had been playing about 45 minutes when suddenly (as I was playing) the display screen went dead and all power went off the entire keyboard. I checked all cables, power source and connections. Nothing. I waited 10 minutes and it still would not come on. I waited 4 hours and it still would not come on. I went to bed and when I got up the next morning I tried it and It came on and worked perfectly - BACK TO THE DEALER (after several weeks in the shop the repair man said he could not get it to repeat the "dying" routine, thus no fix). Now I have a great sounding instrument that I can't trust taking to a gig. I don't have any other arranger keyboard with which to gig. So, I suppose I will stop gigging or purchase another arr. keyboard - NOT A KETRON/SOLTON!

That whole "shut down" thing happened to my X1 too, and it was the cable connection to the hard drive. I had it glued to the connector. Then it was fine!

Deaton,

Sorry to hear about the problems with your X1. I bought mine from Don about a year and a half ago. I sent it in for repair because I thought it was noisy. I had it back in a week and it has been fine every since. I also use it on gigs. Mine has never failed. Even when it was noisy (which may have actually been my problem) it always worked. Don says he didn't trust it but I don't think it ever quit on him and it hasn't quit on me either.

My boss is the head of the technology department where I work. He bought a Gateway computer for himself. It was a lemon. He will never buy another Gateway. Gobs of people swear by them. Some people will never own another Ford some will never own another Chevy. If I buy another keyboard I would still consider Ketron but I can see why you wouldn't.

Tom

I bought a six-month-old X1 from someone at this forum. I had so many problems, it was unbelievable. Even though, I must admit that I never heard of anyone having a problem with the SD1, I would be very weary before purchasing one.

My problems began when I ordered the vocalizer kit and the 13 switch pedal. Neither worked (I spent needless hours troubleshooting, especially with the vocalizer kit). So I had to pay for shipping to get replacements. I purchased these two items from Alex at Music Magic. He did not keep his promise to me to send me free styles in compensation for my aggravation getting this stuff DOA. I pestered him two or three times, and then forgot about it.

Then I noticed some keys were louder than others. So I shipped it back under warranty to Bell Solton. That was $50 I had to pay. The keyboard came back with some foreign object lodged under some of the keys (At least that's how it felt) and some other problem I can't remember. I didn't want to open up the keyboard because I'm not a tech.

So the next time, they paid for shipping, and it got sent back again. When the X1 came back, and I took it out of the box and put it on the carpet and lifted it up again, there were five or six screws from the assembly on my carpet. I'm not kidding! They told me that they changed the whole internal part of the keyboard, but there were still keys that rattled when I played them. At this point I wanted to sell it, but I new that I couldn't with the keys rattling.

This time I demanded a new X1 for all of my problems. They accepted this (at least over the phone). I sold the X1 through a forum as new without warranty. When the X1 came, maybe they put new stuff inside, but it had an older serial number and was scratched outside. So I had to face the embarrassment and pay money back to the buyer of the "new" X1 I had sold. At least it worked!

I thought the X1 would solve all the shortcomings of my PSR 740. I wanted a PSR 9000, but I balked at the weight. But the X1 had a lot of its own shortcomings, including shoddy workmanship and no nearby repair.

I'm heartened that I do not hear about any problems with the X4 nor the SD1, so I might buy another Solton if it had the features I wanted, but I would never buy an X1 even though the styles absolutely kick derriere.

Right now I own two PSR 740s. One I keep in my studio and the other in the trunk of my car. I gig twice a day, and this keyboard is very reliable - but they do break. I'm sure the PSR 9000 is built sturdier. At least I know that on the way to one of my gigs I can drop off my keyboard at one of the two repair centers in the area.

I hope those who own the X1 get millions of notes of musical pleasure out of their keyboards, but I think it's important for people to hear from people like me whether or not my experience was a rarity.

Larry

[This message has been edited by Beakybird (edited 08-23-2001).]

You must not live in Louisiana. Around here, laving your keyboard in the trunk of your car could easily result in a melted keyboard
DonM

same here in georgia, even your sunglasses melt onto the dash!

I would like to say thanks to everybody whos replied to this thread on this subject...

again, i will reitirate that i am happy with my X1. I can also relate to a few people here who have performed with an X1 and impressed people with its performance. Ive recorded songs on my X1 a while back and the results were great, i like the sequencer in this keyboard. The quality of the styles do make a difference as well.

On another note though, i can also relate to peoples frustration with the X1's problems and dont forget ive had my fair share too! the very senior people here will know what problems ive had with mine when i first got it, but im on my 3rd X1 (albeit its lasted me over a year without problems), but the first 2 were dire, utterly unusable, things failing such as the HD and the display as well as a 'fade out' right speaker at times. I think it must be something to do with the earlyer models though.

I know that people may dislike threads that pits keyboards against each other, but i tell you these are valuable threads because not only do you get to learn more about these keyboards (especially if you have never seen one of them), if any lurkers are about such as Yamaha or Solton reps then of course they can take note of our concerns.

Out of every keyboard ive ever heard and played, there is something i would love to take from each one to create my perfect keyboard. Its never going to happen so its just down to which single keyboard has the most things which suit your needs. This is something that i must believe in otherwise i could change keyboards every 5 minutes!! its easily done.. Ive never really been totally dissapointed with any of my keyboards (even if the WK8 did at first, i soon made it play nicely to me!!), but its just when i hear a new keyboards i want it over the one i have.!! But thankfully since getting the X1 ive stuck with it.

One thing i have definately learnt over the years is that the lifespan of a keyboard is surely judged by its sounds more than anything else. I know someone who still uses a KorgM1 !!! they are happy with it and why not.. I think that apart from features, comfort usage, weight and amplification, if your requirememnt is heavily dependant on the styles then your more often than not going to change keyboards before their time. Styles dont last forever, and i remember certainly with the earlyer Yamaha models that the styles were just to familiar and was looking to change keyboards far too quickly. I was so annoyed when i changed from the PSR510 to the PSR520, they were nearly identical really. Thank goodness that nowadays you have the option to edit and create your own styles - if you have the time that is!

Best Regards,
Danny

[This message has been edited by DannyUK (edited 08-26-2001).]

Good point Danny - styles don't last forever.
HOWEVER .....
(didn't cha know there would be a catch???? )
I play mostly "Classic" and "Standard" tunes that will never need a new style, because they are burned into peoples' memory the way they were recorded. With mostly million sellars in my repertoire - my styles (drum patterns) only really need to cover the basics. I can embellish the rest with my own thoughts. A few years ago, while I was still using dedicated drum machines, I discovered that I could play most nights with only 10 patterns or so. I'd rather have more variation than that, but hey - a Cha Cha is a Cha Cha, is a Cha Cha. Dancers don't want experimentation - they want "foundation".
Early Roland E series users will remember the "Easy 8" card for the E-20,RA-50 line - that was essential to a dance party. Almost all the basics were covered with those 8 simple beats....
1)8beat (rock and ballads)
2)16beat(same, but with a busy feel)
3)Disco (nuff said - great for Motown too)
4)Shuffle (can't jitterbug without it!)
5)Swing (for the jazz fans - finger poppin!)
6)Latin(simple Bossa pattern - classic)
7)Waltz (3/4 is used in EVERY genre)
8)2beat(Polka's,Bluegrass, Marches

I can't remember if the classic R&B 12/8 pattern was in there or not. I couldn't do a night without it, that's for sure - all those 50's ballads, and love songs....aah!