Hello:
I don't know if any of the PSR3000/1500 / owners have notice that the Performance Assistance works really nice, it works when you playback a midi file as long as is made in a Tyros, PSR3000 and 1500....it does NOT work with any other Midi files....ONLY those I mention.
Playing the midi file with the melody.....( Performance Assistanse ON)...the keyboard adopts inmediatly the scales of the changing chords in use while playing...you can select to beguin a different sound than the melody, and you can strike ANY key and it will embellish the song playing.
This feature is for those that want to interact with a midi file that perhaps is or to difficult or simply, do not know that song.....and that way will not be WRONG notes.
I hope you enjoy it.

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mdorantes

Manuel, though I understand how this features will assist less than adequate keyboard players in giving the audience the impression (albeit false) that they're more skilled players than they really are, I find this kind of shortcut adds yet another 'nail in the coffin' to whatever respect & appreciation TRULY skilled musicians get. This performance assistance feature only cheapens music performance to the level of pressing buttons & keys (and ANY to boot)

Ok,some here suggest that music is all about entertainment. I can't DISAGREE more. Though entertainment is a factor, to me, music is a an expressive art form. Luckily, my audiences still want to hear ME actually sing & play the keyboard LIVE. Is musical performance in some circles now turning into just some kind of grand illusion of flash, glitz and smoke & mirrors? There IS a difference between a karaoke singer, DJ, and a 100% live performance musician. I just hope general audiences still appreciate the difference 5 years from now. This biz is looking more and more about JUST PRETENDING to be actually playing (creating) music with little or no keyboard musicianship required.

Manuel, my aplogies for ranting, but this one really hit me hard. Also, please be assured that my attack was not at you whatsoever, but at the direction that music keyboard performance seems to be heading. The Yamaha Performance Assistance feature in my opinion is really a double edged sword.

Perhaps I've just over-reacted. Anyway, it'll be interesting to get some perspective from others on this.

Scott

Three decades ago I played a lead guitar with a drum machine, a mixer, and a lousy PA system. I was considered a maverick because I chose to utilize a drum machine and not use a drummer who couln't stay sober enough to keep time. And whan that first keyboard became availale, one that was not much more than a drum machine with a piano, it changed the entertainment business dramatically. Today's arranger keyboards are beyond anything this old man could have imagined way back then. They've come a long, long way, and as time goes on, they will ultimately advance. These advancements do not detract from one's musical ability, but instead, they enhance it by providing musicians with tools that unleash their creative juices and allow them to freely flow. I have always wished I had the talent and ability to master complex chords, read music, and perform songs that written by the masters. Unfortunately, that never happened. Instead, I have become an entertainer--not a musician. Though I would like to be both, this is not the case. Therefore, I like many of my fellow entertainers, will continue to utilize tools such as internal style files, internal voices, midi files and yes, even the performance assistant--anything that keeps the audiences entertained. That's why they came to see and hear me.

Cheers,

Gary

Hello again:

I do not even own a PSR 3000...and also, because I work in a music store and many of the customers we have, mostly enjoying their retirement, ( do not intent to learn seriuosly or have the time)....and want just to have fun......
I play profesionaly, and I start it playing ( long ago), with the Hammonds like the B3, X66 ALL MANUAL....no automatics, so you have to develop your playing skills, and I also remember that I had like 20 drummers in a time frame of almost 2 years...because either could not stay sober...,be on time....etc...so, I start using the "Rhytm Units...
If I am not mistaken, a feature in the Technics KN 6500 and up....( I think), it makes up a solo for wherever style you maybe playing too....
I understand Scotts concern......I just got a kick out of it, and wanted to share that.
I also see Gary's point.

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mdorantes

Gary, the difference between the performance assist feature and the other features you mention is that with 'performance assist', you're actually pressing ANY key(s) to give the audience the false impression that you're actually playing the correct notes on the keyboard. Utilizing the other features (internal styles and midi files) in a supportive role is NOT the same thing, as they generally aren't used to give the audience the impression you're acutally playing 'those' parts.

Though I understand the advantage of performance assist for the home keyboard player (oops, I meant to say: home entertainer) to impress (albeit deceive) their friends, the 'performance assist' feature merely lowers keyboard musicianship to the level of a lip syncing singer. Both are, simply put: outright FRAUD and DECEPTION. If you can't sing . . . then don't. If you can't play a complicated solo on the keyboard then don't. Play a simpler rendition of it instead. If you can't play or sing, but still want to be an entertainer, perhaps consider becoming a stand up comedian instead.

It's challenging enough ALREADY for professional arranger keyboardists to convince some in the audience that we're actually 100% PLAYING the keyboard, and now with the public's growing knowledge of 'performance assist' type features, will only become that much more difficult.

All this does is perpetuate the notion that ANYBODY can be a keyboard star now, and that keyboard musicianship skills are no longer required, just the guts to get up in front of an audience and be a so called entertainer. A real depressing thought for musicians. Anyone else have anything to add?

Scott

Scott,
Those are some strong words from someone making a living using preset styles, automatic bass lines and rhythms.

C'mon .... admit it - we ALL use automation to serve us. We are not really playing totaly live anymore. We're adding live parts, but face the truth - we're slaves to the machines. It's a cold, hard truth.

The fact that some us us can still play acoustic piano, guitar, sax etc. is great for what it is, but in the OMB setting - we are directing, organizing, singing, entertaining, accompaning, soloing ...... we wear SO many hats.

It's just not fair to say that you are a totaly live player when you use these arrangers. Own up to the reality of the situation, and embrace the advantages.
We are in a new wave of metamophasis in our musicianship. The auto-stuff adds sizzle to our skils, but at the same time .... I'm sure it reduces some facility too. Sometimes I wish I still played manual bass all night long. I was better at it a few years ago. I love the work opportunities, but I don't prefer the actual work since arrangers came along.
I am always trying to feature MY hands during a night. I shut off the auto stuff and just bang away. It's good for my soul and it's good for the crowd too. Some places actually respond much better when I go solo. The only advantage to the machine for me, is in a dance situation.

I think we're more than just a step up from lip syncing, but it's definetely not fair to say it's 100% live either.


[This message has been edited by Uncle Dave (edited 11-06-2004).]

Scott,

Until last evening, I had never touched the performance assistant button. And, when I play using a midi file, it's me playing--not a fake job. That's not my point. From the standpoint of using device to enhance a song, this is a neat tool that can be used ONLY WITH SONGS CREATED ON THE 1,500, 3.000 and TYROS. In other words, that song is the creation of the performer to begin with. And, if that song is just the bare basics, and that person wishes to provide his audience with a rich, full sound of a string backing, then he or she can play it with or without the Performance Assistant.

One of my favorite songs is from Disney, When You Wish Upon A Star. Sit down in front of your Tyros, don't turn on any accompaniament, select the grand piano and play the song. Though it will sound just fine, no one is going to get all teary-eyed over the performance.

Next, turn on the accompaniament, select Movie Ballad, tempo of 80. Select the 2nd or 3rd intro, first variation, perform the song, stepping through the variations and layering strings with the grand piano, plus a left-hand layer of strings or gospel. When you get to the end of the song, hit the third ending. There will not be a dry eye in the house!

The keyboard just provided you with all the tools to take a song that sounded OK on a piano to an incredible production that was performed live. Granted, there are folks who think the keyboard did it all and you just sat there and pushed a few buttons. Who gives a damned what they thought as long as they were entertained, spelled your name correctly on the check and put in the right dollar amount.

From your responses, you seem to be upset that these features even exist. Keep in mind, however, that if they did not exist, none of us would be able to make a decent living in the entertainment industry. We would be back to the days when the paychecks were split with five to six others, thereby not providing enough income to keep the car running let alone support our families. the tools on todays arranger keyboards are just that, tools. They make us, the OMB performers, sound fantastic. That's why our audiences continue to hire us, year after year.

Gary

IT DEPENDS ON THE OCCASION!!

The technical musicianship side would be more important at instrument-playing judging contests, and concerts where everyone is sitting in chairs doing nothing more than listening to a performance.

If you are playing a venue to bring listening and dancing enjoyment to the crowd, I would use whatever is at my disposal to add variety, change flavor and allow me to stretch out into a less comfortable playing style that I may not regularly practice or build upon. If the crowd is happy, you are a success, the good news spreads by word of mouth and the establishment will want you back too.

But, if you find that the percentage of time you need to be 'faking it' is increasing, I'd recommend to start building up the chops.

Ed

Gary & Uncle Dave: If you guys re-read my replies, my beef was specifically about the 'performance assist' feature which allows you to play ANY note(s) on the keyboard and appear like you're playing all the right notes (within the scale).

I DON'T equate the other arranger keyboard tools (midi files, auto accomp arranger styles) in this SAME category, as they aren't (typically) used as a tool for deception, but instead, merely to enhance your live 'main event' performance: keyboard playing and/or singing. On the other hand, during the INSTRUMENTAL SOLO, the 'main event' is what is heard during the solo. To fool the audience into thinking you're actually playing the correct notes is wrong to me. Lip syncing & pretend keyboard playing for the sake of entertainment is one thing, but to do this at the expense of musicianship is not only deameaning to keyboard musicians, but further gives the general listening audience the impression that music performance is as easy as turning on a radio or CD player now.

This leads to the depressing possibility, that audiences may NO LONGER appreciate or care about musicianship, or people who actually CAN PLAY the keyboard anymore. I only hope this isn't true. Am I alone here with this perspective or what?

- Scott

Scott,

I have heard your music and your voice and you are without question extremely talented. I read many of your post and your command of music and music theory is in the league of professional teachers at the college level. In such company I should remain silent and keep my hands away from the ivories.

Anyone that knows just a little about music will see these things in you as you perform.
Those that don’t know anything about music just won’t care how the music is made.

All they know is that when you do “Ring of Fire” they are listening to their own emotions as they feel the music. You may think you are a OMB but in reality everyone you connect with in the audience is playing along with you. You do the music that brings on the emotions and they bring their own feelings that allow them to play along beside you.

You do get the credit. They just don’t know how you do it nor are they going to worry about it.

They are living in the moment of your performance. Not the road you took to get there and not the “how did he do that syndrome” But in the here and now of the song they are “feeling”. That’s entertainment!!!


I am learning to listen to the voice(s) of experience on this forum and to actually learn from them.

True story: This guy who was a Jerry Lee Lewis impersonator was on stage with his keyboard and within the first 3 seconds it was so obvious that the ALL the keys were muted.

My first thought; this guy is dead in the water. The keyboard was turned so that you could get the full view of his hands (Jerry Lee Lewis style). What I failed to realize is that only a musician who has spent years of study would even care.

This guy looked the part. He really sang the songs and sounded excellent. He had the
moves and mannerisms down perfect. He was an entertainer and did his job well.

He interacted with the crowd and made them laugh; he allowed them into his world
and they became part of it for the next hour or so.

And what a crowd he was entertaining! They loved him. Nobody cared if he was playing the keyboard or not. They wanted to be entertained. They cared about forgetting the hard week they had and the problems they faced in the real world. This guy often them a harmless escape and he got paid well for his efforts.

I know this may be an extreme example but when I hear Mr. Diamond say that it
is about “entertainment”; I have learned to listen.

Floyd

Scott
I must agree with Gary and Dave in this issue.
Performance assistant is a new feature to enrich your records.
Just a question:
When you sing a song with the vocal harmony, your audience is listening a false trio or quarteto of Scott voices.
For me is the same thing.
Harmony is an achievement as well as performance assistant.
Just a tip:
Performance assistant just runs with mids recorded by Yamaha arrangers(Not suitable for commercial mids)

Chico


[This message has been edited by ChicoBrasil (edited 11-06-2004).]

Floyd, many thanks for the compliments, though I'd hardly consider myself in the same league as many of the fine pro musicians or music teaching professionals of the day.



Hi Chico. Sorry, but I don't believe this to be the SAME thing at all. When using the vocal harmonizer, we're actually triggering the harmonies with our own voice singing specific pitches.

I believe a more fitting comparison would be if one used a vocal PITCH CORRECTION processor to correct the notes, no matter 'WHAT' pitch you sing.

Arranger tools which assist professional OMB musicians to achieve results not humanly possible (with one person) is one thing, but to utilize these features to SUBSTITUTE for what can & should be played live is another.

As I stated previously, I'm all for tools that assist us, but I draw the line when it comes to features which require little or no music skill. Once this happens, the public's respect for musicians and musicianship will only continue to diminish.

Scott

TAlk about entertainment value, a few years ago I was a performing musician turned performing event DJ(weddings and parties). I got to learn the value of entertainment in a hurry, anyone could play records. I learned a whole new appreciation for the entertainment side of what we do.

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qqqwq@hotmail.com

[This message has been edited by mikeathome1 (edited 11-06-2004).]

[This message has been edited by mikeathome1 (edited 11-06-2004).]

"Use it...don't abuse it"...that's what I think is appropriate, at least for me.

The reality is, it would be difficult, if not impossible to make a living without using an arranger. Every person needs to choose thir place on this slippery slope.

For me, I use an arranger, but no sequences, MP3, etc. I want to play as much live as possible. But, I'm not an entertainer, so, if entertaining is your primary thing, you do what it takes.

At the end of the night, I need to feel like I have been true to my craft. I need to keep learning and adapting, but always keep musicianship first. That's my choice, not necessarily the way others do it.

Russ

Let me add a short comment to this: fact is that the keyboard makes this possible and you may as well make use of it.
I sincerely don't believe it will improve your real playing, but that is up to you. Play like this before an audience? Why not! I use styles and the first thing my daughter said was: do the people who composed this (!) get paid when you perform?
OK, I still have to play the chords and melody and sometimes programm the multipads.
And if I would compose my own style, nobody would know I made it myself.
If I make a mistake (chord, note or otherwise) no audience will praise me for it. They come to hear music and I doubt if they care at all who makes the music (unless you have fans).
Anyway: I won't use the function we are talking about - I tried to, but I just can't because it confuses me. If I can't play it, I leave it or study long and hard.

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drdalet

[This message has been edited by drdalet (edited 11-06-2004).]

Scott I understand your point but also that of UD&Gary.
But with all respect…you guys are pro's.
If you can't play nobody will hire you.
But don't forget that arrangers are also bought by amateurs. People like me who play only at home and have lots of fun with all those gadgets that arrangers have inside.
I'm not a good player but enjoy every minute I can play in my spare time.
I can't sing either but have lots of fun with my VH and suddenly I can sing (although my wife and daughter laugh every time because they only hear my real voice and not what I'm hearing at my headphone).
But hey ...I forget all the problems in the world when I'm in front of my keyboard.
After a day work I like to relax and the best way for me is playing my keyboard or listen to
other music.
Like John Miles sing…Music was my first love and it will be my last.

Jan

I must admit, I've played the acoustic piano for over 20 years now... I've taken a few years of lessons and theory, but mostly learnt by ear. I kind of see Scott's point in that the music assist in front of an audience would feel like 'faking it' for me too. Maybe this is just because I learned to play on the acoustic? Who knows.

All I know is I can't see and hear musician's from a non-musician's perspective. Sometimes I really wish I could! I know one thing for certain, if a member of my audience during a performance came over and realised I could press any key and it automatically was in the correct pitch, I'd probably melt off the stage out of total embarrassment! It'd be like a Milli Vanilli moment or something...

Carrie

Dave, I of course fully realize that playing an auto accompaniment keyboard is not 100% live. I DIDN'T intend to infer that it was. What I was trying to convey is that whatever notes I DO play on the kb are 100% live, and NOT merely FAKING it (aka: pretending), as utilizing the 'performance assist' feature apparently provides.

Uncle Dave, I'm suprised that you didn't come to my defense regarding this issue as I clearly remember you yourself having repeatedly preached against FAKING it in performance, as evidenced by the following comments you made on this previous thread: http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/005976.html





Uncle Dave, what you stated above is really NO DIFFERENT than what I'm preaching here about FAKING (pretending to play) keyboard solos. For home recreation, the performance feature can be fun, but I really WISH people didn't try to pass this off in a professional paid music performance situation as well. As you stated yourself: "There is dignity in performing live to backing trax .... but there is NONE in pretending."

Scott

I'm with you on that point !
I just think you were a little defensive about the arranger aspect, which is a huge compromise, no matter how you use it.

You know I'm a fan of technology, but a bigger fan of heart and soul ( NOT the song ). The important thing is that we convey a message to the audience. The tools are here to help us get the message accross.

Scott, you're a dedicated performer and I know you take your craft seriously. I just think sometimes you forget that the arranger is at least 1/2 the act. The bass and drums are so much more important than any piano part ever will be in a dance or show situation. Unless it's a concert venue, and then, I doubt that an arranger would even be used.

I've come to view midi files as a more legitimate "means to an end" than arranger styles. They please the corwd more and leave room for me to be the piano/guitar player....same as if I was in a real band.
The styles get old fast, but the original sequence of a popular song will always be accepted by thge masses.

I totally concur regarding this point. Music without heart and soul is meaningless to me.



As any hi quality pro live backup band rhythm section would, I always make sure that the auto accompaniment parts serve primarily as 'window dressing' to ENHANCE the front man: ME , and never use it to hide behind, or let it overshadow my live vocal or keyboard performance.



That's interesting to hear, especially since most of my arranger gigs ARE indeed concert type venues. My primary draw is pouring my heart and soul out with my vocals, utilizing my arranger keyboard playing skills acting as the pianist in an intimate combo setting (primarily drums & bass).



Midi files are the "more legitimate"(?) means to an end than arranger styles?!"

Dave, I'm afraid, on THIS POINT, we have to part our ways and agree to disagree.
For my performance specialty: intimate lounge cabaret & concert performance work, I find arranger auto accompaniment mode performance the most appropriate. For a dance bar/club scene, where the audience comes with the primary purpose of dancing, utilizing & playing along to midi files may be the right ticket, but for a OMB acoustic combo setting (primarily drums, bass & piano) in an intimate lounge venue situation, playing the arranger kb in auto accompaniment offers spontaneous creative performance flexibility & freedom NOT possible when you're locked into playing along to a pre-sequenced midi file. I rarely perform the same song the same way each time. This not only includes how I sing it (vocal interpretation), or what improvised keyboard solo I might play on that tune that nite, but also what chords, chord voicings, and/or chord substitions I choose to use either, as it depends on the mood of the moment. This type of artistic freedom is what I consider the creative magic (aka: heart and soul) of music performance that's not possible when one utilizes a midi file. I do use midi files occasionally though, for situations when I want to get out into the audience and sing my heart out.

Ok, I've said my peace now. At least everyone knows not only 'where' I stand on this issue, but 'why' as well.

Scott

I knew that would draw fire from some. Let's just say ..... The crowd sees it as a more legit form of accompaniment because they recognise the arrangement more. I'm all for spontinaety, and I was reluctant to switch over to smf ..... but the proof is in the pudding....or rather, on the dance floor. They respond better to a more authentic backing version, and no one cares if you add a verse or stretch out a solo as long as they can dance to it.
I suppose your nursing homes are more concert-like than my dances, but the seniors wouldn't care if you played a zither with bongos between your knees. They just want the company and something to do till Jeapordy comes on. It's hardly a concert venue, really. It's more like musical babysitting.

Don't get me wrong - it's good work, and very well appreciated. It's just not at the same point on the food chain compared to a more demanding audience.

I don't expect to come to any conclusions on this topic. We'll all do it our way. I don't mean to second guess anyone's methods. Let's just all keep puttin' out the best product we can and keep the folks happy.

I'm not going to whine like those psuedo-patriot Americans that are threatening to run out of the country because of election results. Anyone that want's to leave ..... good riddance! This place (USA)is a slice of heaven, and anyone that can't see that doesn't deserve to live here.

(That just snuck in there ... sorry!) Whew!

It's obvious by your statements here that you think YOUR audiences are more demanding (and discriminating) than mine.

Well UD, you're totally WRONG! When I was referring to my concert venue performances, I "wasn't" specifically refering to my nursing home gigs. That is only one aspect of my gig work, of which I incidently, do appreciate & enjoy in their way, just as much as I do my other gigs.

Mr Boyd: You obviously 'don't know' the clientle I perform for. In addition to the nursing home gigs, my venues also include concert performances for exclusive senior 'independent' living communities (not nursing homes) as well as Private Country Clubs whose residents are in the 35+ age group which incidently INCLUDES a lot of folks in YOUR age group (50) as well. Both the 'Independent Living' & 'Country Club' residential Communities I work for have particularly discrimating listeners (many retired or p/t pro musicians themselves) who appreciate the classic standards (from Gerhwin to contemporary standards) performed live by leading pro musicians in the San Francisco Bay Area, and they aren't not just some guy found down the street, who 'as you state' play a zither with a bongo between their legs.

Geez, I thought we were supposed to LEAVE politics out of our discussions on this forum.

Sorry, but I don't believe that statement for a second.

UD, I found your above vicious statement both ARROGANT & OFFENSIVE. Our Country (USA) was founded on freedom of speech, and whether I agree (or not) with what they say, all Americans have the right to express their view & feelings (including frustrations) without fear of the kind of ridicule you espoused. Uncle Dave, I don't know what's suddenly tripped your ego (again?!) tonight, but I find it most inappropriate. Shame on you.

Before this thread turns any uglier, I'm going to sign off for now. Goodnight.

Scott