Over the years, there has been much discussion on this forum regarding individual preferences for keyboard feel, action, even key size. Some of you prefer brand X while others prefer brand Y.

Often, I hear suggested - "If only they would put that top of the line model keybed in this lower/midrange model. I would buy it in a minute". Ah - but then the costs would go up significantly!

Which brings me to the point I want to make. What really is the cost of an improved keybed platform?

At NAMM 2005, Edirol (Roland) announced a new improved series of midi keyboard controllers. http://edirol.com/products/info/pcrm80.html

One of the big selling points is an significantly improved keybed over its predecessor.

"The PCR-M80 is a revised version of the popular PCR-80 MIDI Keyboard Controller. Like the PCR-80, the PCR-M80 offers direct connection to the computer through USB, 61-Keys, 27 assignable MIDI controllers, a software editor, MIDI input and output, and both sustain and expression pedal connections. Some advancement the PCR-M80 has made over the PCR-80 includes the addition of velocity curves, switchable MIDI interface, and a new key-action found on Roland's higher-end synths. The PCR-M80's key-action has been refined to produce even less mechanical noise than its predecessor and offer a consistent, playable feel. The keys themselves are slightly more rounded to keep your fingers from tripping over the keys during quick glissandi".


In a general price search, the older model lists at $395 while the newer model lists at $375! --> $20 less!

So - they borrow a decent and proven keybed from their higher end line and incorporate it to a lower/mid-range product for less!

You don't have to re-invent the wheel and pay $200 - $300 more for a better keybed, do you?

Mark

I have a problem with generic midi controller when it comes to using an arranger - it's not very ergonomic.

Arrangers require more button-pushes than the average keyboard. Using a midi controller is fine for selecting one sound at a time from a module but with an arranger you are required to select intros, verse, choruses, endings and trigger fills in addition to selecting sounds and layers... that's not so easy when the buttons are not on the same instrument you are playing.

Then again there are some stand-alone arranger boxes like the Roland DisCover 5m or the Yamaha QY700 that require you to use an external keyboard so it's certainly possible to do so, but I like having it all in one. And not all arranger keybeds are wacked, just some.

Pro,
I can see what you mean about button pushing on a separate unit, but if I remember correctly don't some (really good) midi controllers have assignable buttons and switches. Could start, stop, and other various functions be assigned to those buttons as well? When I midi my drum machine up to my keyboard I can control the start, stop, and tempo from the keyboard. I would think it can work the other way when using a dedicated midi controller with assignable switches.

Squeak

a year ago there was so much hype about the liontracks mediastation,this was supposed to be the board of the future,up till now there has been very little feedback,i don,t know why liontracks don,t send one to georgs kaye,any good reviews coming from him could make this board take off,so what about it benno,mike

Squeak;

At one time I used a Roland EM-2000 arranger with a Kurzweil PC88mx because I couldn't stand playing the EM's 61-note keyboard. And I managed to remotely start/stop and do various things but it was a lot easier to perform when I got an all-in-one arranger in the Yamaha 9000 Pro.

My 9000 Pro has 11 buttons dedicated to selecting the various arranger verse/chorus/fill/variation options alone, not counting the usual start, stop and tempo stuff. I suppose those could be assigned to a controller but you'd have to do some homework. And then you'll want to remember how to recall all those settings on the fly on a dimly lit stage while playing... not a job I'd want but certainly not out of the question either. I'd still take an all-in-one arranger over a controller and arranger combo.

I can't answer specifically how much it costs for a keybed. We would probably be shocked at how little it costs. Most members gripe about the Yamaha arranger keybed. I do notice the difference, but it doesn't prevent me from buying a Yamaha. Casio, Roland, Korg, all make decent keybeds and at competitive prices, so why doesn't Yamaha. They do have decent keybeds for their other non-arranger models.
Starkeeper

because Yamaha seem to consider its PSRs as toys, and because of that, Yamaha put bad keybeds into them.

Hi,
pity Roland & Korg they stopped making arranger modules. I had a few of them over the years ( including a Technics). At least one had the choice of what type of controller one wanted to use with them. It's a pity Yamaha never had one.
Actually had 3 of them midied to my digital piano at one stage.
best wishes
Rikki

Let me just add another perspective to the keyboard controversy.

I'm just wondering how many of their customers are like me and don't care about weighted keyboards, or even 76 or more keys. I started on cheapo casio's so the keyfeel on a board like the psr 2000 or the tyros is a giant step up for me.
Now I'm not saying which is best, and believe me I have a sense of appreciation for you guys that have played piano for years and years.
Some good young keyboard players have never played a "real" acoustic piano. Any household can get a $100 keyboard from Walmart easier than an upright piano.

So if they made a keyboard like you want would they be able to sell enough?

[This message has been edited by mikeathome1 (edited 02-09-2005).]

I don't need full weighted action, but something along the lines of the Motif, or my previous workstation, the "antique" Korg M1, would make me happier. The response and feel means a lot, particularly when I solo.

From my perspective, if Yamaha was to include an option for a better keybed, lets say for the PSR3000, and it cost me more, yes I'd buy it.

I think that this could be a good approach. Those who don't care so much or aren't bothered by Yamaha's PSR keys could pay the standard price. Those who are affected, like me, could pay a little more for better quality. How much more would it cost for them to give me the Motif series keybed, and the Motif pitch and mod wheels while we're at it ? It would make a difference to me, and I'd surely pay the extra money. I think the pitch wheel bothers me even more than the key feel, but if you've ever tried the one on a Motif vs the one on a PSR, I bet you'll know immediately what I mean.

AJ

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 02-09-2005).]

All that hype came from the source! No stores that I know carry that brand, and none of my pro friends have any interest in it .... as far as I've heard.
Dominik tried to presell it on the zone, but it never grabbed my attention. Anyone else bit on this one?

Not me... The asking price was out of this world, and base on what they were showing us, I can't see how it was any better than using my laptop and vsti's with a controller, except that it would have maybe cost about 5 times as much.

AJ

I'm with you on this one Bluezplayer. I like the 3000 enough that I'd go for one, but, after having my i30 for a while, that Yamaha keybed turns me off. I'd pony up for an uprated keybed, too.

The Lionstracs thing? Nope, never did see one in the flesh. I sort of had the feeling that it really wasn't much more than an experiment. Also, I'm not wild about companies who expect you to be their guinea-pig, and ask you to lay out major bucks for the privilege.

the standard model of mediastation is at 3200 euros,due to all the hype about the new boards coming out,if liontracks don,t take the initiative to promote this board,then this could be their last chance whether they will sink or swim IMO,mike

The reason I need 76 keys for my arranger keyboard is because I'm starting to do a duo with a female singer. When you accompany a singer, you need the full range of the keyboard for left hand bass without having to use the Octave Shift. I just can't seem to feel inspired with 61 keys doing accompanyment. Why the heck did they invent an 88 key piano in the first place? For full orchestrations with the Piano, that's why.

With that said, I just love my fully weighted 88 key Yamaha Motif ES keybed. It allows me to be more expressive. Ok, the Motif is 65 lbs and not a treat to move around, so I'd be willing to compromise on 76 keys with semi-weighted keys.

The other issue with this size keybed on an arranger is there is more room for keyboard splits. I'd like to split the keyboard 3 ways; bass, chords, solo voices. This would save me from so many patch changes during a song.

Dear UncleDave & Narondi2002;


The mediastation on paper looks like a terific machine. It seems to have it all, with a powerful computer engine to start with & fully upgradable to your hearts content. Secondly, it has the built in arranger section. As you have mentioned before, there seems to be poor distribution. How are they suppose to sell the KB if no one can hear it. Thirdly, if we are to make judgement of the keyboard from the demos on the web, I'm afraid that they do not flatter the KB. If the mediastation is suppose to be capable of 64 bit audio processing etc.. why do the voices, styles etc... sound so mediocre??? The videos do a good job of explaining the capabilites, but when it comes down to audio demonstrations they are just satisfactory. A large portion of the demo uses E. Piano & regular 8 or 16 beat. Also, the few other sounds that are used are really not very impressive. How could such powerful technology lead to sub-optimal results???


Regards;
SCP

Hmmm.. I see they have a bunch of sounds and effects built in and guess what...? the majority of it is freeware stuff that is readily available on the net.

My guess is that they have some kind of bundling deal going with Lin Plug ( commercial - Delta III, Cronox ), but I wonder how they compensate the freeware developers.. ? They have some kind of arrangement too I would guess..

BTW, if you're not that impressed with the sound demos, looking at what it has bundled in for soft synths, I'm not terribly surprised.

It has a few very decent freeware offerings in there - Green Oak crystal, lallapolooza lite, but these are both basically analog synth emulators. The remaining offerings probably aren't even among the best freeware out there.

Truth be told, there are very few good freeware sample based / gm modules out there. Free soundfonts like Personal Copy or Magic SF will easily surpass any of the LE Sampletank stuff sonically.

BTW, I think all of the built in effects are freeware as well. The kjaerhaus effects are quite good though, and they rival many commercial offerings I've demoed.

The concept is ok though, and it seems like it might be a pretty decent value at the mediastation LE asking price of $2295.00, but not at close to 5 grand or more for the other versions.

I've spent less than that for a laptop, a controller, speakers, a USB quattro soundcard / midi interface, expanded ram, DAW- Midi software, software arrangers, many ( and I mean many )vst instrument plug ins, effects and sound modules, and I pretty much have all that I could ever want. At 5 grand, Neko gives you a great interface to work with, but see how the bucks add up when you add all the rest of the stuff.

I'm just not convinced that it's going to be so much better than what I have now that it would be worth spending about double or more for what my softsynth system cost.

AJ

What you guy don't realize is that the instrument is designed AROUND the keybed. The whole case would have to be redesigned. It would be deeper and heavier on top of being more expensive. Basically it would be the size and weight of a Motif ES6. Still interested?

------------------
Yamaha Customer Support
YCASupport@yamaha.com
714.522.9000

Thank you for your input, Steve.

You know Casio is selling the PX100, an 88-key hammer action keyboard that weighs less than 30lbs. and costs $400. That light and with 88 hammer action keys. It doesn't feel like a real piano, but it's pretty good.

I don't think I would want the weight and throw of piano keys on an arranger keyboard.

But there is room for improvement with Yamaha. The PSR3000 was an improvement over the previous models. I enjoy playing the PSR3000 more simply because of the better key feel. Ideally, I would like the keys to be a little heavier feeling.

The advantage of an arranger keyboard over a midi controller is that the buttons are ergonomically placed in just the right place for the functions that are needed - especially the style variation buttons and the registration and voice buttons.

I think that if someone were trying to change styles on a controller that had programmable buttons, a lot of mistakes would be made pressing the wrong buttons by accident. I think there would be a lot of frustration about not having the buttons where you want them, lighting up how you want them to light up. You would have the advantage of the better keyboard bed and playing around with voices made from huge samples, but you would not have the buttons and the display made solely for an arranger.

Beakybird

Dear Beakybird/Bluezplayer;

I agree with you concerning the convenience ergonomic button placement( stop/start/variationstempo change etc.. ) of the arranger set-up vs. softsynth arranger. Maybe BluezPlayer could shed some light on this topic for us since he has a softsynth arranger set-up. Bluezplayer share your experiences with your set-up ( maybe you could tell us what the ultimate softsyth arranger set-up would be that would surpass the Top-Model arrangers that are now on the market--/Pa1x/g-70/Tyros/Sd1/Gem) .

BeakyBird the problems you discussed above I believe would be amplified in a Live senario, where the lighting is low, external distractions etc... are in place.

Further , I suppose the benefit of a KB like the mediastation is that the computer & arranger are all in one ( no need to connect a midi keyboard, computer ). It could be up-graded with better software, but for the price of admission one should have expect more. The Neko LE is a possibility at ~$2400. Adding some good quality voices, OMB probabally cost another $1-1.5k.

Bluezplayer what is the highest quality Voices software/samples ( read as most realistic, live sounding voices) in your opinion for instruments ( solo instruments from an orchestra--violin/strings/trumpet/saxes/trombone/flutes/french horns etc..., guitars ( acoustic nylon/steel, electric-fender/gibson/les paul etc..) pianos, oragns, accordians , accoustic drums, etc.. . Is there one package that has it all or would you suggest a couple of different vendors for their best voices??? What are they??
I'm looking for the most realistic/accurate/life like sounds, in order to sound like a live Band.

Thanks for your help
Regards;
SCP

SCP,

I don't want to totally hijack this thread, ( hmm I should say "again" 'cause I kinda did that already before..lol ) so I'm going to start a new one and try to answer your questions.

AJ


[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 02-11-2005).]

I'm playing a Psr2100. How would you compare the keyboard on the Psr3000 or the tyros to the Psr2100 keyboard?
Thinking of upgrading.
John C.

Hi guys...I think you are waiting one reply to me.
First at all, thanks a lot for your interest in Mediastation.
I will try to explain the Mediastation status BUT sorry again for my bad english.

Well, how you have understand too, the future is under one PC system and not under one SLOW embedded system like the other brans.
The probe again come from the BIG Yamaha with Steinberg VST, don't need to comment...

About Mediastation:
A lot of Mediastation are out, but 99% of the production was shipped in Lebanon for the all Oriental area.
About 20 MS are here in Italy and some around Europe and for that nobody here aroun had the possibility to touch and hear it.
I know how you there feel, without see, touch, hear and testing it, just on the paper look interesting, but to much risk to buy one. Is ok, don't worry about that, sure will come someday that there you can testing it too.
IF and when our last saftware under Debian Linux will relased ( this before the Musikmesse Frankfurt in germany, we joint there too) I will propose to George Kaye to shipping there one FREE Mediastation sample and then you there can see and testing too.

About the software:
sure you saw our last screes shots...: http://www.lionstracs.com/index.php?module=Static_Docs&func=view&f=/screenshots.html
I think no another brands can give you this possibility and powerfull system and do NOT forget that all the new software will always available FREE in any time, just pressing the key: web Updating: http://www.lionstracs.com/modules/Static_Docs/data/gui/Updater.jpg
or styles updating too: http://www.lionstracs.com/modules/Static_Docs/data/gui/snapshot15.png

Another interesting stuff is the ONLINE HTML manual, that will interactive audio/video too.
I have here the first demo, BUT is NOT complete and must totally full correct the text, but you can have a idea how will working: http://updates.lionstracs.com/media/help_manual/index.html
Here you can see in the web, in Mediastation is run just pressing the key HELP+ the desidered function key.
Of couse, in HTML page, anybody can edit it, translate and made full interactive too.
The Mozilla Composer is standard installed in any Mediastation, so NO software to buy for made that.

Another interesting application now is the Linux Sampler, already integrated in the sound patch interface. LS ( linux sampler) will loading the standard GIGA studio library ( V. 3.0 too) and give you about 180 Voice. http://www.linuxsampler.org/

Another standar application installed is the add/Sub/Pad syntesizer, with 127 oscillators for Voice: http://www.lionstracs.com/modules/Static_Docs/data/gui/snapshot7.png http://www.lionstracs.com/modules/Static_Docs/data/gui/snapshot6.png

Before the next exibition, our VST developer Torben will including the new VST server, where you can install ABOUT any VST plug-ing inside the Linux system.
Here some VST compatibilty list: http://djcj.org/LAU/ladspavst/

All FREE VST plung-ins will installed in any Mediastation and in future any new one tested will automatically update by the system for FREE.
Or of course you can install windows application too.
So...if you have understand, here the possibility are infinitly.

About the arranger:well, we are to developing a totally new Audio/midi arranger application and for that we dont have posted new styles. For the exibition we will shown it, maybe with the full audio features too, ulimited audio/size tracks too.

About the GM/GS sound installed: there you know that we use a 128 Voice DSP for the midiplayer/arranger. Now we have just one standard GM/GS sound font, but you can still easy change the Falsh DIMM with the new sounds, we have Flash DIMM up 256Mb.
Right now we have ordered from one Germany company to develope for us some new GM/GS2 sound bank and we can change the flash we we want.
Another possibility is use ine GM/GS sound bank in the linux sampler too.
So, here really the possibility are infinitly....just to use your fantasy too.

I'm design right now for the 88 keys version too and for the exibition we will shown the 64bit native version too.

I think you get enough info...

Regards
Domenik

Hi Steve (YamahaUS1),

YES, I for one, would have GLADLY paid more for my Tyros if it had the FS (MoES6) keybed in it. In fact, I sit around every now and then and think to my self, "why in the world didn't they put the FS keybed in this board"? I mean since Yamaha first used that keybed in the DX7 and it was used in the Korg M1 and the Wavestation, etc., it's not like the R&D isn't paid for by now, so why wasn't a "professional" keybed put in Yamaha's "professional" arranger? Never have understood that.

Tom

------------------
Bigger is not always better

Casio WK3500 22lbs, 10kg, 76keys with good key feel
Yamaha PSR3000 24lbs, 11kg, 61 keys.
Motif ES6 34.2lbs, 15.5kg.
Starkeeper



[This message has been edited by Starkeeper (edited 02-11-2005).]

Yes I am.... Now.. my question is.. Can it ever happen ?

Here let me put it another way.. Add the ES6 keybed to the PSR3000, and I'll buy it right now... today. Short of that, I'm sticking with my PA80. That's how much it matters to me.

AJ




[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 02-11-2005).]

Well, And then, if the keybed is the most iportant part, the foundations of the house, why to begin the building with bad foundations?
Your arguments can't convince me, sorry, because other manufacturers have resolute the subject (better key feel, standard size keys) without more money, more weight, more size... Why not Yamaha?

Like a said before:
Casio WK3500 22lbs, 10kg, 76keys with good key feel.
Casio can do it!!!!
Starkeeper

I have been monitoring this discussion that appears to have no happy ending. We have all played many different keyboards. Each one is unique in its' own way. Different touch, different feel, different weight, etc. What do we do? We ADAPT because we like the features of our chosen instrument. Are you a worse player because of the presumed inferiority of the keyboard itself? I doubt it, or you wouldn't even bother posting on this forum. Personally, I have played Yamaha uprights, Hammond B-3's, Roland Arrangers, Lowrey Organs, Yamaha Clavinovas & PSR's, Casios and even my 1910 Player Piano (that's a handful to play). Every one of these instruments feels different. Am I a worse player because of feel? NO ! I adapt to that keyboard and its' characteristics. If you wish to buy the keyboard feel first and then the features, that's great. But you are not probably going to find the perfect feel in an arranger type keyboard. Of you want the feel of a 9' Yamaha or Steinway, you're not going to get that at a bargain price or weight. Anyhow, I had to weigh in on this one (no pun intended).

TJ

.
I have the DGX 305. The good key-feel was one of the main points that sold me on it.
It is not weighted, and yet it's tactile response is much better that all the other non-weighted keys I have tried. Firmer, less mushy...it's hard to describe except to say that I like it.

I am no expert in this area. I would like to hear from one of you who has tried a lot of different keybeds, including the DGX 305 or 505. How do you experienced players feel about the touch on this board?

JDW

.