Well that bites.

Danny

Hehe, I would think it's still an Arranger Keyboard, but not used as one.

About playback and fake, that's been hot topics here before, and I guess I'm one of those who got the temperature rising to dangerous levels for some of the members here at SZ.
When use sequensed tracks as "addon" when you actually play most of it live it's not what I would call fake, but believe me, I've seen "musicians" who take a trip among the audience (soundcheck?) while the keyboard plays as he.., and also seen two keyboards at the stand where the keyboardplayer used the one without the powercord plugged in during the whole evenening. Faked playing while everything was (midis and sequensed stuff) playback on the other. When asked to play along for singalong songs in weddings or whatever, the answer is: Sorry, but we can't do that!
Excuse me for saying this, but why not just bring a miniplayer or karaokemachine, sit down and be honest and cool when operate it?

Oh well, back on topic....

If a duo or a trio is defined as band, then I would say that a Arranger Keyboard work like a dream. But if the two other members play bass and drums.... hey, here we go again.....

GJ

Btw, on the Technics KN's (not KN5000 and up) there was a function called "dynamic accomp". It was a wonderful feature who was triggered by a extra punch on the keys when play, and the bass and drums made a nice, smooth and easy fillin or more a variation in that beat to make everything much more "live". The harder you played the keys, the more and sharp difference played in the style. Oh how I miss that brilliant function!
Any keyboard designer who listen?

[This message has been edited by Gunnar Jonny (edited 03-20-2005).]

Practice, practice, practice in bands. We did that so that the song was always performed the same.

Me personally having performed during the disco era and Beach Music years, I can say that it was critical that once the "machine" (as in band) fell into the pocket, the tempo better not vary. That style of musician had superb chops (Usually of the fusion type) and the dancers were fabulous in those days and, they would trip all over each other if the tempo varied. We were not, after all, playing dramatic music but dance music.

OK, I need a little slack here. I do not disagree with the above --- Disco, Beach Boys and Latins ___ do not vari the tempo--it's that kind of music -- agreed!

But since I am from a different time, and have played for many many years, the confinement of an electric beat, did take away from my music. I am talkinmg about feel here, not a run-a-way drummer --couldn't stand those.

Dancers got excited and we help create that excitement. Talking about feel -- Maybe a tempo of 175 ending at 179.
Cha Cha -- Disco -- Beach boys -- don't vari the beat. In the mood-Mack the Knife can not be played well FOR dancers without creating excitement = Volume&Tempo&feel

On an Up-Tempo we played on top of the beat. That means to accent the beat just before it hapened. It could not measure it, it was a feeling. On ballads we played a little behind, again creating a feel.
When I went to electric drums, that was lost.
Amen!
IMHO, John C.

I have tried to use my arranger with my 4-piece band (gt, sax, keys, singer) with moderate success. Since 90% of our music is midi-based, the rest of the band is pretty used to following the auto rhythm. I find that the biggest problem is matching the style to a song in a way that pleases all the band.

We have only a few songs I now use my arranger for. I have converted many arranger songs to midi to eliminate confusion.

To go back to the original question - any keyboard player playing with a live drummer and other musicians certainly doesn't need the arranger, but my PSR2000 has keyboard sounds that I love AND it is way lighter than my VR760. In that case, I just leave the accompinament off. But it sure is nice to have for those unexpected requests (the ones the rest of the band doesn't know.)

OK Chaps and Chapesses (ladies)
I think the answer here is that unless the other band members are extremely good then you're better off switching off the 'Arranger' side of your keyboard...
Now what is interesting is the increasing number of players who have indicated that they use the sequencing and midi facilities extensively when 'playing' live in front of an audience - now accepting the questionably marginal differences between a sequenced 4 beats which constitutes a style file versus pressing the start button then sitting back and letting the sequenced or midi file in the keyboard play the whole 3 - 4 minutes of the song - which feels more to you like a genuine approach, given that you're not doing something else like singing or playing a guitar?

First of all, using styles or midis does not necessarily free you to do nothing. I'm getting to be an exclusive midi performer, but I am still playing all out with every (well almost every) song. My concept of using midis is to give me the band members I don't have, so I need the drummer, percussion, bass player and sometimes strings or horns. I have a great guitarist who is able to play rhythm or lead as the midi requires. My sax player is useless anymore, but he's a good buddy (know what I mean. I'm doing 75% of the work and getting 25% of the gig.

Am I missing something here?
Do you think the general uninformed public thinks that using a sequence means that you DON'T play?
In a live band ... you only get to play YOUR part. With a sequence .... you still get to play YOUR part. At least - that's the approach I take. If I use a sequenced backing - I am the piano player. Remember that guy? Playing piano over a band or a sequence is the same technique .... only the band usually screws up the timing and some of the notes. Give me a perfect sequence over a mediocre band ANYday.

Interesting topic! Most know I have a love-hate relationship with arrangers, but the bottom line is, arrangers have kept me working in a very competitive and price snsitive environment.

I approach it like this: I work with a live jazz trio...no arranger. Then, I work with a core of excellent sidemen, including a guitarist, flugelhorn player, saxophone/flute player, percussionists, several singers, etc.on other jobs. Bass players and trap drummers are generally pretty rough with an arranger.

This works fine for me. I choose the appropriate sidemen according to the kind of job. I even add sidemen when it is not really required, depending on the type of job, budget and my level of boredom in doing a single. The bottom line is, for me, music is meant to be played wih other musicians. But, times are different...the only society big band in the area only works six or seven times a year.

Another advantage of using an arranger is I control the performance. If someone is difficult or unhappy...drunk or whatever, I can send thim home and complete the job.

Arrangers are great tools. It's just that, sometimes I miss the interaction...the great unspoken communication that permits alterating arrangements on the fly, playing off other players, etc.

Russ

A little off the topic, but when I run midi's the Tyros has a feature that allows looping or going back to a set point on the fly. Great for live play when the dance floor is full and they want to keep dancing. I was just wondering if anyone else uses this feature?
And btw I agree with Uncle Dave that when using midi's I play one or two parts along with them. Usually, piano, organ or horn parts with the right hand and bass with left. Playing bass live usually gives the midi a much better groove.

Ed

I did my last Saint Patty's party of the year last night, one that had just 50 people in a restaurant. The party was for an 85 year old lady that was born on Saint Patrick's Day, she was quite spry and had a ball. The performance time was just one hour, but I put on a 52 minute dinner midi for just a bit of soft, background music while they were enjoying dinner.

When dinner was over, the party began with the traditional lighting of the candles on the cake, happy birthday, and right into some grand old Irish tunes that were requested by her daughter. No problem. Then it was the usual routine with lots of upbeat, big band, Sinatra, etc tunes, ended the night with Show Me The Way To Go Home, everyone applauded, and I ended up with a hefty tip on top of the normal fee.

The irony of this was that I was off in a corner, isolated from the restaurant's bar, which was around the corner. As I was leaving, the bartender said "Are you part of the band that was playing in the dining room tonight?" When I replied "I am the entier band." His response, was "What are you talking about. Where is the drummer, sax, guitar and trumpet player? And, who was singing the songs? There were times when I know I heard more than one person singing."

It took a few minutes to explain that it was all coming from me, but after talking with him for just 2 minutes, he said "While you were performing, I couldn't sell a drink in the bay--everyone was at the dining room door watching you perform for the entire hour." He then asked if I was interested in a job performing at the bar a couple nights a week. He said the owner will call me in the next few weeks, and took a couple cards.

The bottom line is, if there were four of us performing, the money would be split 4 ways and no one would have made much more than gas money. Unfortunately, this business pays the same now as it did 35 years ago. The arranger keyboard has put the word profit back on my tax return, and for this I am eternally grateful. And, for those that consider playing and singing with midi files cheating, well, maybe it's time to re-evaluate your stance. As I've said many times before--this is the entertainment business, and when you stop entertaining your audiences, you're out of business.

Cheers,

Gary